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Message: [QUOTE="SWC75, post: 3828769, member: 289"] Pitcher's won-lost records date from an era when pitchers were expected to finish games: they pitched in rotation and you wanted to know a team's likelihood of winning when a particular pitcher pitched. Cy Young started 815 games, completed 749, win 511 and lost 315, a wining percentage of .619. (Clayton Kershaw's is .697) Eventually the concept of a relief pitcher was born but they were both firemen and closers and expected to take over games. They created rules to allow relief pitchers to get wins and losses. Wilcy Moore was 19-7 with 13 saves for the 1927 Yankees and they went 110-44. the next year he was 4-4 with 3 saves and then went 101-53. But eventually top relief pitchers became just closers. Starters were only supposed to supply 6 good innings, (a 'quality start'),then turn it over to a 7th inning guy and then an 8th inning guy and then the closer. The combined efforts of the starter, these three relief pitchers as well as the batting, baserunning and fielding of the 8 'position' players determines the outcome of the game. Giving relief pitchers won-lost records now seems pointless as they are no long evaluated based on that. Mariano Rivera's won-lost record was 82-60. he's not in the Hall of Fame for that: he's in the Hall for his 652 saves and 2.21 ERA. The games where he got the decision were not his best games: he's not supposed to get the decision. he's supposed to get the save. it makes more sense to just keep track of the team's won-lost record with each starter. The Jacob DeGrom's frustrations with the Mets are well documented: [URL='https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mlb/jacob-degrom-is-one-of-the-unluckiest-aces-in-baseball-history/ar-BB1fC6wv?ocid=uxbndlbing']Jacob deGrom is one of the unluckiest aces in baseball history (msn.com)[/URL] "DeGrom has often suffered this plight. Since 2018, the year of his first Cy Young Award, deGrom has made 78 starts and pitched 503 innings. Seventy-eight percent (61) of those starts were quality starts, meaning he lasted six or more innings and surrendered three or fewer earned runs. He’s struck out 649 batters, walked 110 and allowed just 115 earned runs (2.06 ERA) over that span. Yet the Mets are 36-42 in those matchups. No, that’s not a typo...A lack of run support is part of it. Over the past four seasons, the Mets have given deGrom 4.1 runs of support per nine innings pitched, the [URL='https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=nl&qual=y&type=c,4,5,7,13,-1,-1,6,-1,123&season=2021&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&startdate=2018-01-01&enddate=2021-12-31&sort=8,a']third-lowest of any starting pitcher[/URL] over the past four years. If he had been given an average number of runs (4.6 per data from TruMedia) in support of his 2.06 ERA, we’d expect the Mets to be 45-10 in those starts. Instead they went 36-19, nine fewer wins. Jake is almost 33 years old and ahs only 70 career victories, (vs. 52 defeats). His personal won-lost totals over those three years have been 10-9, 11-8, 4-2 and 0-1 so far this year. He's been award two Cy Young awards, the voters having to ignore his won-loss record and focus on his other numbers to give them to him. It's bene reported that he's worried he might not make the Hall of Fame because of the paucity of victories. The Mets won the first game today, 4-3: [URL='https://www.espn.com/mlb/boxscore/_/gameId/401320350']Phillies vs. Mets - Box Score - April 13, 2021 - ESPN[/URL] Walker pitched 4.1 innings, got 13 of 19 guys out and gave up 1 run. Castro got 5 guys out, put three guys on base and one of them scored. Diaz pitched a perfect inning with a strikeout. May pitched the 8th inning, (of a 7 inning game), got 3 guys out but gave up two base runners, (besides the 'designated runner) and the go-ahead run before the Mets won it in the bottom of the inning. he also had a passed ball. he was arguably the Met's worst pitcher in the game but got the win because he was 'the pitcher of record'. Why not can the W-Ls and just evaluate pitchers on how well they pitched just as you evaluate batters on how well they hit and fielders on how well they fielded? past pitchers could be evaluated on the same basis. Just compare them to their contemporaries using actual pitching numbers. You're never gonna catch ol' Cy anyway! teams win and lose games not pitchers. [/QUOTE]

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