Sorry if it s re-thread on JUCO's

[thorpedo]

I am just curious about JUCO targets at this time. I feel that wee need the immediate experience currently to create a slightly more improved impact on the W/L column. Sorry if this is a re-thread. If someone can show me the link (I went 4 deep and only found a hand full of JUCO prospects and most are the ones who have already committed to us). Anyway, call me lazy but, a little help and direction. It's been a while since I used this site and I am craving Syracuse Football. I am sure there are other offers out there currently. Any update would be helpful.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I really doubt we're going to see anyone else aside from the 2 (or 3) who are coming in.

 

[dasher]

I really doubt we're going to see anyone else aside from the 2 (or 3) who are coming in.

Really? I hope you are wrong. There is that former ND kid out there who has 3 to play 3.

 

[cusefan88]

a DT isn't a bad idea for JUCO. I think Holmes picked Kansas. If my count is right SU only has Williams, Slayton, Clark, and Samuels (with Harper coming in the summer). Need another 1 or 2 DT's

 

[CuseLegacy]

Really? I hope you are wrong. There is that former ND kid out there who has 3 to play 3.

If you are thinking about Mykelti Williams I would say he is more of a transfer than a true JUCO.

 

[dasher]

If you are thinking about Mykelti Williams I would say he is more of a transfer than a true JUCO.

How about Blair?

 

[CuseLegacy]

How about Blair?

He's definitely a JUCO.

I think we are all going to have to wait and see if he qualifies.

 

[PAcuse]

We really don't want more the 2-3 JUCO and when you bring them in you want ones like we got. We paid dearly for FHCDM and his JUCO spree...

 

[money3189]

a DT isn't a bad idea for JUCO. I think Holmes picked Kansas. If my count is right SU only has Williams, Slayton, Clark, and Samuels (with Harper coming in the summer). Need another 1 or 2 DT's

I expect 1 or 2 current DE's to slide inside. Pickard or Black would be my guess.

 

[money3189]

I am just curious about JUCO targets at this time. I feel that wee need the immediate experience currently to create a slightly more improved impact on the W/L column. Sorry if this is a re-thread. If someone can show me the link (I went 4 deep and only found a hand full of JUCO prospects and most are the ones who have already committed to us). Anyway, call me lazy but, a little help and direction. It's been a while since I used this site and I am craving Syracuse Football. I am sure there are other offers out there currently. Any update would be helpful.

Staff wants 1 juco DE. So expect at least one more

 

[cusefan88]

I expect 1 or 2 current DE's to slide inside. Pickard or Black would be my guess.

Seems like Pickard is already bigger and quite a bit slower than Black. If i guessed between those 2, i would say Pickard

 

[thorpedo]

I feel that due to our location and with the resurgence of Penn State a more "Kansas State-Coach Snyder" rebuild approach isn't terrible idea. I feel the success from AET, provides a bit of "proof is in the pudding" sort of example that HCDFB, has the skill set to mold a potential player (Yes I know he was a 5th year transfer and not a JUCO). This gives us the credibility in a unique way to say "Look at what we could do for this kid." Granted, its all hypothetical but, we have limited depth and JUCO's fill a hole of either immediate success or much needed depth with playing experience especially when it comes to next years grueling schedule. I don't enjoy the idea of doing it for the long term but, just for this and the next season as coaches (incoming freshman) players slowly mold and adapt to playing on a collegiate field. Again, all hypothetical but, looking at his trend during this signing period and with 6-7 scholly's left (I may have read my information incorrectly so correct away) why not fill them with players that can contribute in more ways then one? We will have your typical 25-30 signed players for the future but most won't see the field for a year or two and most will become special teams players. I just feel it provides us with at best more depth.

 

[RF2044]

I feel that due to our location and with the resurgence of Penn State a more "Kansas State-Coach Snyder" rebuild approach isn't terrible idea. I feel the success from AET, provides a bit of "proof is in the pudding" sort of example that HCDFB, has the skill set to mold a potential player (Yes I know he was a 5th year transfer and not a JUCO). This gives us the credibility in a unique way to say "Look at what we could do for this kid." Granted, its all hypothetical but, we have limited depth and JUCO's fill a hole of either immediate success or much needed depth with playing experience especially when it comes to next years grueling schedule. I don't enjoy the idea of doing it for the long term but, just for this and the next season as coaches (incoming freshman) players slowly mold and adapt to playing on a collegiate field. Again, all hypothetical but, looking at his trend during this signing period and with 6-7 scholly's left (I may have read my information incorrectly so correct away) why not fill them with players that can contribute in more ways then one? We will have your typical 25-30 signed players for the future but most won't see the field for a year or two and most will become special teams players. I just feel it provides us with at best more depth.

Not a bad thought, in theory. But the problem with that approach is that Kansas State is right in the middle of a hotbed for powerhouse JUCO programs, so recruiting them is right in their territorial wheelhouse.

We're in a much different situation, in terms of quality JUCO programs in any relative proximity. So I have difficulty envisioning this as a viable, sustainable approach for our program.

But I agree that we shouldn't be shy about seeking quality JUCOs / 5th year transfers who can challenge for starting roles and improve our talent base, a la AET.

 

[SoBristol]

Marrone and Adkins proved it can be done (bringing in JUCO help from Nassau CC and even Arizona) regardless of our Upstate location. You can say we aren't in a hotbed for JUCO programs -- but it is really the same location challenge when we have to recruit high school kids from Florida or Chicago.

It is a matter of priority (win now? build for later?) and numbers (too many might distort the spread between seniors and the ranks below). At this point, we are light on 5th and 4th year players and have a ton of underclassmen, so it does not hurt to add a few jucos or grad transfers. It comes back to attracting the right quality to upgrade the starting units and the key spares, as will happen with Pierce at TE and Butler at CB. A couple more like those two, please.

 

[tep624]

We really don't want more the 2-3 JUCO and when you bring them in you want ones like we got. We paid dearly for FHCDM and his JUCO spree...

I would add that as long as Babers and his staff are recruiting JUCO's with the pedigree of Pierce and Guthrie that they think are capable of being 2 year starters, then they can bring on as many as they like. That's the big difference I see between their JUCO recruiting and what we saw under both Shafer and Marrone. The Shafer and Marrone JUCO's were more often of the "last minute filler" or "depth with upside" variety.

 

[SoBristol]

If Babers is successful in recruiting 20 quality players from high school, we soon will not have major holes that need filling from juco or grad transfer ranks. This cycle, and one more, than we should be good.

I would not discount what Marrone did in rebuilding from the depths the program had reached. He used JUCOs in both lines, at MLB, at safety -- and gave the team a chance to get to bowl games. Sure, there were some misses, both in terms of quality and character, but there were also several who contributed as starters.

 

[thorpedo]

Not a bad thought, in theory. But the problem with that approach is that Kansas State is right in the middle of a hotbed for powerhouse JUCO programs, so recruiting them is right in their territorial wheelhouse.

We're in a much different situation, in terms of quality JUCO programs in any relative proximity. So I have difficulty envisioning this as a viable, sustainable approach for our program.

But I agree that we shouldn't be shy about seeking quality JUCOs / 5th year transfers who can challenge for starting roles and improve our talent base, a la AET.

Completely agree! Coach Snyder had the pipeline to his JUCO's. Don't get me wrong I want a team full of 4-5 year players and just reload each year but, we need some more foundation to help rebuild this former battleship of a program in the northeast and we wont't be there for at least a few more years barring a mass exodus. It's a very interesting approach to take. In Babers We Trust!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I feel that due to our location and with the resurgence of Penn State a more "Kansas State-Coach Snyder" rebuild approach isn't terrible idea. I feel the success from AET, provides a bit of "proof is in the pudding" sort of example that HCDFB, has the skill set to mold a potential player (Yes I know he was a 5th year transfer and not a JUCO). This gives us the credibility in a unique way to say "Look at what we could do for this kid." Granted, its all hypothetical but, we have limited depth and JUCO's fill a hole of either immediate success or much needed depth with playing experience especially when it comes to next years grueling schedule. I don't enjoy the idea of doing it for the long term but, just for this and the next season as coaches (incoming freshman) players slowly mold and adapt to playing on a collegiate field. Again, all hypothetical but, looking at his trend during this signing period and with 6-7 scholly's left (I may have read my information incorrectly so correct away) why not fill them with players that can contribute in more ways then one? We will have your typical 25-30 signed players for the future but most won't see the field for a year or two and most will become special teams players. I just feel it provides us with at best more depth.

JUCO's a "in case of emergency, break glass" strategy to me when it comes to program building.

As such, whenever we sign a JUCO, I just assume they're a practice body.

We've seen so many cases where people go nuts over a JUCO, and they end up having relatively little impact. I've just decided to expect that, and if we get more than that, gravy.

 

[tep624]

JUCO's a "in case of emergency, break glass" strategy to me when it comes to program building.

As such, whenever we sign a JUCO, I just assume they're a practice body.

We've seen so many cases where people go nuts over a JUCO, and they end up having relatively little impact. I've just decided to expect that, and if we get more than that, gravy.

I think the JUCO recruiting Marrone did through Nassau CC was pretty good - Andrew Tiller, Michael Hay, Olando Fisher, Siriki Diabate - they all came from there and made an impact on the program. Arciniega, John Miller, Kirkland, Darius Kelly - all in the 2013 Marrone JUCO frenzy and those guys were all solid depth/program guys and 1 year starters in Kelly/Miller's cases. But we haven't done much with JUCO recruiting since the 2013 year.

But it's definitely been a mixed bag. For every Andrew Tiller there was a Malcolm Howard. We have not in the past 15+ years landed a JUCO with the pedigree of Ravian Pierce, so hopefully we'll see a solid return with him.

2009 (4) - Andrew Tiller, Derek Hines, John Mark Henderson, Torrey Ball
2010 (5) - Deon Goggins, Olando Fisher, Lou Alexander, Michael Hay, Tombe Kose
2011 (1) - Siriki Diabate
2012 (2) - Markus Pierce-Brewster, Zian Jones
2013 (9) - Michael Lasker, Luke Arcineiga, Josh Kirkland, Trevon Trejo, Darius Kelly, John Miller, Tyler Marona, Wayne Williams, Malcolm Howard
2014 (0) - None
2015 (2) - Trey Dunkelberger, Ted Taylor
2016 (1) - Michael Moore
2017 (2) - Ravian Pierce, Ryan Guthrie

 

[SUFaninNJ]

I think Michael Hay just picked up another penalty.

 

[RF2044]

I think the JUCO recruiting Marrone did through Nassau CC was pretty good - Andrew Tiller, Michael Hay, Olando Fisher, Siriki Diabate - they all came from there and made an impact on the program. Arciniega, John Miller, Kirkland, Darius Kelly - all in the 2013 Marrone JUCO frenzy and those guys were all solid depth/program guys and 1 year starters in Kelly/Miller's cases. But we haven't done much with JUCO recruiting since the 2013 year.

But it's definitely been a mixed bag. For every Andrew Tiller there was a Malcolm Howard. We have not in the past 15+ years landed a JUCO with the pedigree of Ravian Pierce, so hopefully we'll see a solid return with him.

2009 (4) - Andrew Tiller, Derek Hines, John Mark Henderson, Torrey Ball
2010 (5) - Deon Goggins, Olando Fisher, Lou Alexander, Michael Hay, Tombe Kose
2011 (1) - Siriki Diabate
2012 (2) - Markus Pierce-Brewster, Zian Jones
2013 (9) - Michael Lasker, Luke Arcineiga, Josh Kirkland, Trevon Trejo, Darius Kelly, John Miller, Tyler Marona, Wayne Williams, Malcolm Howard
2014 (0) - None
2015 (2) - Trey Dunkelberger, Ted Taylor
2016 (1) - Michael Moore
2017 (2) - Ravian Pierce, Ryan Guthrie

I look at that list, and its really a mixed bag. Tiller was highly rated, and only came because we hired his HC. Ball was a solid rotation guy who had a pretty good senior year.

The next year, Goggins was a quality get. Hay started but was all over the board.

Diabate was a terrific player.

Zian Jones was a solid rotation guy.

In 2013, Arcinega was quality before injuries cut short his career. Kelley was a very good safety [would kill to land a guy like this THIS offseason], and John Miller became a starter.

No other names on that list are noteworthy. So by my count, 9 out of 24 emerged as quality contributors--which goes to show that even landing experienced guys isn't necessarily the surefire way to build quality depth.

Obviously too early to tell on the 2017 guys.

 

[SoBristol]

I look at that list, and its really a mixed bag. ....

Yes, some hits and misses in the years with several juco recruits.

But you have to keep the context in mind. In the first two Marrone years, and in 2013, there were reasons why the juco list was a mixed bag. Marrone had to reach to fill in gaps after he cleaned out much of the roster he inherited. In 2013, the normal cycle was decimated by Marrone's departure, so Shafer had to take desperate actions to fill his class.

In 2014, Shafer had a full cycle, went entirely with high school recruits -- and ended up with a full class of recruits by signing day, a third of whom never made it here, or left inside one year. Right there is your mixed bag.

The programs that do well with jucos work that process in the normal cycle -- much as Babers just did with Pierce and Guthrie. And to that you can add a juco DE who is visiting before signing day.

 

[Ernj]

I think Michael Hay just picked up another penalty.

And on the next play he was still in his stance when the DE flew around him to the QB...

 

[RMH44]

Yes, some hits and misses in the years with several juco recruits.

But you have to keep the context in mind. In the first two Marrone years, and in 2013, there were reasons why the juco list was a mixed bag. Marrone had to reach to fill in gaps after he cleaned out much of the roster he inherited. In 2013, the normal cycle was decimated by Marrone's departure, so Shafer had to take desperate actions to fill his class.

In 2014, Shafer had a full cycle, went entirely with high school recruits -- and ended up with a full class of recruits by signing day, a third of whom never made it here, or left inside one year. Right there is your mixed bag.

The programs that do well with jucos work that process in the normal cycle -- much as Babers just did with Pierce and Guthrie. And to that you can add a juco DE who is visiting before signing day.

You nailed it right there! FHCSS signed a bunch of academic risks and was stuck scouring the JUCO ranks for bodies when they failed to qualify.

This year's JUCOs were signed early, on purpose and with a purpose, rather than after the Feb NLI signing day. We weren't forced to look for the best of the leftovers after the risky signees failed to qualify.

 

[RF2044]

Yes, some hits and misses in the years with several juco recruits.

But you have to keep the context in mind. In the first two Marrone years, and in 2013, there were reasons why the juco list was a mixed bag. Marrone had to reach to fill in gaps after he cleaned out much of the roster he inherited. In 2013, the normal cycle was decimated by Marrone's departure, so Shafer had to take desperate actions to fill his class.

In 2014, Shafer had a full cycle, went entirely with high school recruits -- and ended up with a full class of recruits by signing day, a third of whom never made it here, or left inside one year. Right there is your mixed bag.

The programs that do well with jucos work that process in the normal cycle -- much as Babers just did with Pierce and Guthrie. And to that you can add a juco DE who is visiting before signing day.

It's also important to keep the context in perspective that Marrone had an ace up his sleeve [Anselmo] who was the former HC of the primary source of our JUCO talent initially. I don't think that we would have landed Tiller if not for that connection / access.

I like the approach Dino is taking. A guy like Pierce isn't just a warm body--he's a very highly rated / coveted recruit. Chances are, he's going to be a stud. Qualitatively, that's a completely different situation than the majority [most, not all] of the JUCOs we've landed over the years.

But I think there's been a consistent tendency on this board to overrate our chances to land quality JUCOs. Every time we have a depth issue, there are lots of posts expressing "let's just go get a JUCO to plug that hole." It's not that easy for SU, given that there aren't a ton of quality JUCO programs in any relative proximity of our school to build relationships with and establish any semblance of a pipeline. Sure, we can go outside of our contiguous area and chase prospects. Hopefully, our coaching staff proves to have the chops on the recruiting trail to continue to get us in with some of the top rated JUCO prospects [as opposed to lesser rated guys that we as a fanbase cross our fingers pan out]. I don't have an issue with Babers and staff pursuing JUCOs, per se.