Speed Option

[OrangePA]

I read an article on Syracuse.com indicating that Hunt is progressing with the speed option series.

A recurring theme on this board has been the need to employ a wide open passing offense to take advantage of the indoor playing environment afforded by the Dome.

It seems interesting that so many SU offensive coaches have ultimately reverted to the option.

Maloney did it. Mac did it. Pasqualoni did it and now Shafer is doing it. Robinson didn't do it and Marrone didn't do it - though in 2012 he did incorporate some hurry up read option. But the general trend at SU has been to use some form of the option.

 

[Whitey23]

Some have said that offenses, like the option, help compensate for talent discrepancies.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Some have said that offenses, like the option, help compensate for talent discrepancies.

Yeah, exactly. Like when GT ran all over us the last time we played. I think they won, what, 10 games that year? Sounds like a plan!

 

[Millhouse]

I read an article on Syracuse.com indicating that Hunt is progressing with the speed option series.

A recurring theme on this board has been the need to employ a wide open passing offense to take advantage of the indoor playing environment afforded by the Dome.

It seems interesting that so many SU offensive coaches have ultimately reverted to the option.

Maloney did it. Mac did it. Pasqualoni did it and now Shafer is doing it. Robinson didn't do it and Marrone didn't do it - though in 2012 he did incorporate some hurry up read option. But the general trend at SU has been to use some form of the option.

the general trend has also been to be terrible on offense the last 16 years.

we have horribly inefficient passers most years this century. i think running a simple high school like spread and throwing the ball more than other teams would help us recruit a QB who can throw the ball.

there isn't low hanging fruit like 1980s idiotic qb racism anymore. we gotta try something else.

 

[Finwad32]

The triple option is a staple of a lot of offenses, including Oregon. It will not serve in that same capacity for us, but, it is still a viable offense.

Any team who runs any zone read has the option in their system, spread included.

 

[Millhouse]

The triple option is a staple of a lot of offenses, including Oregon. It will not serve in that same capacity for us, but, it is still a viable offense.

Any team who runs any zone read has the option in their system, spread included.

i don't want balls in the air going backwards. if you're going go that route, you gotta go all in. if it's not your bread and butter, i don't want to see pitches.

 

[Finwad32]

i don't want balls in the air going backwards. if you're going go that route, you gotta go all in. if it's not your bread and butter, i don't want to see pitches.

I understand your thought process. That's exactly what we preach, you work hard for a yard or two, you don't want to give any back by design. But, if you can isolate a defender in space, which any college OC should be able to do, you'll have success with it.

 

[Scooch]

Maloney did it. Mac did it. Pasqualoni did it and now Shafer is doing it. Robinson didn't do it and Marrone didn't do it - though in 2012 he did incorporate some hurry up read option. But the general trend at SU has been to use some form of the option.

Maloney had Hurley, Mac had McPherson, Pasqualoni had Graves and McNabb.

I like the option. I love mobile QBs. But it seems what's most important is to have a good QB (e.g. Nassib as a senior). We had a nice long run of that, and then the position generally went to hell for us.

 

[Millhouse]

I understand your thought process. That's exactly what we preach, you work hard for a yard or two, you don't want to give any back by design. But, if you can isolate a defender in space, which any college OC should be able to do, you'll have success with it.

i think there are other ways to do that without adding pitches as a wrinkle.

i think it's a little strange that old school conservative defensive coaches who hate turnovers and love field position are so willing to throw the ball backwards. they are much more scared of INTs than fumbles even though bad pitches are much worse for field position.

if you're GT and that's all you do, by all means. but i think it's too risky to do kitchen sink pitches

 

[Millhouse]

Maloney had Hurley, Mac had McPherson, Pasqualoni had Graves and McNabb.

I like the option. I love mobile QBs. But it seems what's most important is to have a good QB (e.g. Nassib as a senior). We had a nice long run of that, and then the position generally went to hell for us.

mcnabb was a great passer (even though he hit guys feet a lot) - he was so good in the shotgun on obvious passing downs. they could've just done that all game long and probably been even better rather than having him run the option

when SU is great, they have qbs near the top in efficiency. that's the problem they need to solve

 

[Finwad32]

i think there are other ways to do that without adding pitches as a wrinkle.

i think it's a little strange that old school conservative defensive coaches who hate turnovers and love field position are so willing to throw the ball backwards. they are much more scared of INTs than fumbles even though bad pitches are much worse for field position.

if you're GT and that's all you do, by all means. but i think it's too risky to do kitchen sink pitches

There are definitely other ways. And I know you know this, but, I'm happy to be talking scheme with someone, so I'm going to ramble a little bit here.

-Regardless of the formation, I love inside or outside zone read away from the 2 receiver side.
Pre-snap you've stretched the defense to max spacing if you're in a 2x2 concept putting a TE and a WR away from the 2-WR side. Or in Syracuse's case, a TE/XB and 2WR. Or 3 WR if they like 2o personnel better.
You run the zone read to TE side, if you like the look you get, you give and get your 3-5 yards ideally.
If the QB pulls you force the alley defender to commit backside to either the slot WR or the QB. If he commits to the Slot then the QB takes off for a nice gain until Safety or Mike can make the play. If Alley defender commits to QB then you throw the bubble to Slot WR and you have a 2-on-1 on the edge.

You make some good points about option, but, I think the way Syracuse will use it more often as a mechanism like I've described versus the old school way we saw in the 90's. There will definitely be some speed option with a pitch man, but, if we saw it 6 times a game, I'd be surprised.

 

[TheCusian]

i think there are other ways to do that without adding pitches as a wrinkle. i think it's a little strange that old school conservative defensive coaches who hate turnovers and love field position are so willing to throw the ball backwards. they are much more scared of INTs than fumbles even though bad pitches are much worse for field position. if you're GT and that's all you do, by all means. but i think it's too risky to do kitchen sink pitches

I might be wrong - but is the option pitch always backwards? I thought it was run parallel or the RB is slightly ahead so it's not a fumble but an incomplete pass?

 

[Millhouse]

There are definitely other ways. And I know you know this, but, I'm happy to be talking scheme with someone, so I'm going to ramble a little bit here.

-Regardless of the formation, I love inside or outside zone read away from the 2 receiver side.
Pre-snap you've stretched the defense to max spacing if you're in a 2x2 concept putting a TE and a WR away from the 2-WR side. Or in Syracuse's case, a TE/XB and 2WR. Or 3 WR if they like 2o personnel better.
You run the zone read to TE side, if you like the look you get, you give and get your 3-5 yards ideally.
If the QB pulls you force the alley defender to commit backside to either the slot WR or the QB. If he commits to the Slot then the QB takes off for a nice gain until Safety or Mike can make the play. If Alley defender commits to QB then you throw the bubble to Slot WR and you have a 2-on-1 on the edge.

You make some good points about option, but, I think the way Syracuse will use it is more of a mechanism like I've described versus the old school way we saw in the 90's.

i'm on board with that as long as you're not throwing backwards to the slot WR

 

[texascpa]

This may sound silly, but the year Marshall put together a brand new team after the plane crash tragedy that took the lives of the previous year's team, they used the Veer. It was the simplest to teach and gave the best chance for the offense to move with limited talent. They won two games that year with a team that composed almost entirely of freshmen.

 

[Finwad32]

Typically it's a forward pass, but, if the QB makes their decision late it can be a lateral.

 

[Finwad32]

i'm on board with that as long as you're not throwing backwards to the slot WR

That's why we had so much success Nassib's Sr. year with the ground game. The zone read was effective because if Nassib pulled he could hit his targets through the air. It wasn't the same play calls, but, it was the same concept.

 

[Toga]

the general trend has also been to be terrible on offense the last 16 years.

we have horribly inefficient passers most years this century. i think running a simple high school like spread and throwing the ball more than other teams would help us recruit a QB who can throw the ball.

there isn't low hanging fruit like 1980s idiotic qb racism anymore. we gotta try something else.

That low hanging racism fruit was a major advantage to SU back then. One that, thankfully, we won't see again. We still have something unique - the Dome. We need explosive WRs and a guy who can get it to them (Dungey - fingers crossed). High flying offense and risk taking defense = crowds = noise = top 25.

 

[Millhouse]

That's why we had so much success Nassib's Sr. year with the ground game. The zone read was effective because if Nassib pulled he could hit his targets through the air. It wasn't the same play calls, but, it was the same concept.

packaged plays are great, we're mostly agreeing

 

[SUFan44]

That low hanging racism fruit was a major advantage to SU back then. One that, thankfully, we won't see again. We still have something unique - the Dome. We need explosive WRs and a guy who can get it to them (Dungey - fingers crossed). High flying offense and risk taking defense = crowds = noise = top 25.

Exactly.

The Dome SHOULD be used as an advantage - why it hasn't been is anybody's guess. We should be able to find a 5-star QB that can throw the ball a bazillion yards and doesn't want to have to deal with weather during games. He'll have to deal with weather in every other phase of his life on campus, but not during games that will ultimately get him drafted and make him money.

Have no idea what the heck our coaches sell, but this should absolutely be used.

 

[OrangePA]

That low hanging racism fruit was a major advantage to SU back then. One that, thankfully, we won't see again. We still have something unique - the Dome. We need explosive WRs and a guy who can get it to them (Dungey - fingers crossed). High flying offense and risk taking defense = crowds = noise = top 25.

I never really bought into the racism thing - at least at the college level.

Penn State had a black QB in 1970.

Michigan State had a black QB in 1966.

We had a black QB in 1949 for gosh sakes.

Etc.

Donnie McPherson did not have a big arm and was very slight. It was his presumed ability that allowed SU to get him - that's my recollection at least.

 

[Finwad32]

packaged plays are great, we're mostly agreeing

And people say you're contrarian

 

[JoeSU]

Some have said that offenses, like the option, help compensate for talent discrepancies.

GaTech and Navy are prime examples.
The question is whether our adoption of the option is in deference to Hunt's abilities, or whether we are recruiting guys to run it as a staple of our offense.

 

[Toga]

I never really bought into the racism thing - at least at the college level.

Penn State had a black QB in 1970.

Michigan State had a black QB in 1966.

We had a black QB in 1949 for gosh sakes.

Etc.

Donnie McPherson did not have a big arm and was very slight. It was his presumed ability that allowed SU to get him - that's my recollection at least.

Actually during that time frame there was not a lot of etc.

 

[OrangePA]

Exactly.

The Dome SHOULD be used as an advantage - why it hasn't been is anybody's guess. We should be able to find a 5-star QB that can throw the ball a bazillion yards and doesn't want to have to deal with weather during games. He'll have to deal with weather in every other phase of his life on campus, but not during games that will ultimately get him drafted and make him money.

Have no idea what the heck our coaches sell, but this should absolutely be used.

That's the interesting thing.

We have a number of very competent offensive coaches, including Tom Coughlin, Coach Mac and Marrone.

And, they almost always revert to the option in some form.

 

[OrangePA]

Actually during that time frame there was not a lot of etc.

Yes, a lot of black college QBs.

Including Moon at Washington, Kerry Jackson at Oklahoma, Corneilus Green at Ohio State, Dennis Franklin at Michigan.

And on and on.