Stop making non P5 teams 1 seeds
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longislandcuse
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Completely agree.
The metrics don't work with mid majors. It's like having a GPS that constantly drives you off a cliff, but everytime you tell yourself, well it's a computer, so it must be right.
Everyone knows how to game the RPI now. The BE did it, the MWC did it, they all do it. It's a joke.
I can't wait till next year when Villanova looks unbeatable again after rolling through a league of has beens. Then we can watch them get a high seed again, and flame out the first time they play a halfway decent team.
Everyone knows how to game the RPI now. The BE did it, the MWC did it, they all do it. It's a joke.
I can't wait till next year when Villanova looks unbeatable again after rolling through a league of has beens. Then we can watch them get a high seed again, and flame out the first time they play a halfway decent team.
Jasoncuse
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How do the mid-majors look next year?
-Nova loses Hilliard and Pinkston, but should still be top 20. They add #2 PG recruit Jalen Brunson.
-Georgetown will be Georgtown. Overrated all year. They lose a number of senior role players but should have DSR back. Not nearly a top 4 seed though.
-Gonzaga loses Pangos, Bell and Wesley but add Vandy's leading scorer from last year, eric McClellan. Will still have Wiltjer, Karnowski and Sabonis so they'll probably dominate the WCC after losing 2-3 OOC.
-Wichita State loses a few solid players but should have Baker and Van Vleet back. Probably not good enough to run the table again.
-Memphis and UConn won't be good enough.
I don't think there are any other relevant mid-majors to compete for a 1 seed. Unless Nova has a run like this year, it seems unlikely this will be an issue next year.
-Nova loses Hilliard and Pinkston, but should still be top 20. They add #2 PG recruit Jalen Brunson.
-Georgetown will be Georgtown. Overrated all year. They lose a number of senior role players but should have DSR back. Not nearly a top 4 seed though.
-Gonzaga loses Pangos, Bell and Wesley but add Vandy's leading scorer from last year, eric McClellan. Will still have Wiltjer, Karnowski and Sabonis so they'll probably dominate the WCC after losing 2-3 OOC.
-Wichita State loses a few solid players but should have Baker and Van Vleet back. Probably not good enough to run the table again.
-Memphis and UConn won't be good enough.
I don't think there are any other relevant mid-majors to compete for a 1 seed. Unless Nova has a run like this year, it seems unlikely this will be an issue next year.
PoppyHart
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Georgetown will be top-10 pre-season, if not top-5.
longislandcuse
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If Gtown is preseason top 5 next year than CBB should just end it's miserable existence and fold up shop
Cuse House
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Sir, have you been drinking tonight?
OttoinGrotto
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If you like upsets, doesn't this support the argument for mid major 1 seeds?
raf4488
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There can absolutely be deserving non-P5s, like the Jameer Nelson St. Joe's team. Evaluate teams by resume, not conference affiliation. Wichita lost closely to an ultra-talented Kentucky team that made the final game. Villanova lost to a good NCSU team that ran Duke off the floor in Raleigh. These games don't mean than non-P5s can't be #1s.
longislandcuse
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IMO, they do. Non P5 teams have given us no reason to justify them as 1 seeds. The NCAAF committee isn't giving Boise State a spot in the Final 4. For good reason.
Not sure I agree Poppy. I think Georgetown will be a top 25 team, but they lose Smith, Trawick, Hopkins and Smith-Rivera could go pro.
They have a couple of young good players, but not preseason top 10 good.
raf4488
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Comparing basketball to football is apples to oranges. Wichita was a pretty difficult Harrison 3 from winning. I believe they were absolutely a legit #1
Paul OLeary
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Agree with #2 but #1 would never even be tabled by the 13 member basketball rules committee as only 1 voting member is from the P5 (Deputy AD from FSU).
jncuse
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Last year was the first time in quite a while that a Power Conference school outside of a top 5 seed had made the final four --
Before that we had the following teams make the final 4 from higher seeds:
Butler (Twice)
George Mason
VCU
Wichita St
Kicking on non power schools makes no sense as they have done quite well in the tourney. Looking at a few #1 seeds and diminishing all of them is silly in my view.
Before that we had the following teams make the final 4 from higher seeds:
Butler (Twice)
George Mason
VCU
Wichita St
Kicking on non power schools makes no sense as they have done quite well in the tourney. Looking at a few #1 seeds and diminishing all of them is silly in my view.
jncuse
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What about Memphis in 2008? Nor worthy of a #1 seed.
Exempting certain schools from the top line is basically a statement that these schools have not competed successfully in the NCAA tourney. Which is not true.
Exempting certain schools from the top line is basically a statement that these schools have not competed successfully in the NCAA tourney. Which is not true.
jncuse
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The BE didn't game the RPI this year. Just because you call them all has beens doesn't make them has beens. They went 27-18 vs top 100 schools in OOC play, many on road or neutral courts. They went and played tough schools as a group and did fairly well.
They had 6 legit tourney teams this year... and the B12 probably had 7 as well. The problem is when you have a large % of the conference as tourney worthy is the seeds will tend to be inflated across the board -- from the top to the middle.
I do think it was a bit of a peak year for the Big East however.
jekelish
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I would say that I agree, but there should be exceptions. For instance, say a team like Villanova were to go 34-0 in the regular season, including wins over Duke, Syracuse, Michigan State, and, oh, let's say, Texas (they played in a preseason tournament, or something).
How would you NOT give them a 1 seed in that case? So yeah, give top seeds almost exclusively to P5 programs, but keep some flexibility.
How would you NOT give them a 1 seed in that case? So yeah, give top seeds almost exclusively to P5 programs, but keep some flexibility.
I understand what you're saying, and there is definitely some hyperbole in this thread, but I really disagree about the BE this year. Maybe gaming the RPI isn't the best way to say it, but there's no way that the BE was a top 2 or 3 conference this year like I believe the RPI rated it as. There were only 2 good wins OOC, and then every other good win was just them beating themselves.
It's not entirely fair to point to tournament performance as the absolute measure of conference strength, but I'm not at all surprised by the BE flaming out. The BE got lucky too, if Iowa st had won their first game, the BE probably would be out of the tournament by now.
why do they use the eye test for part of the equation and not the whole equation. vill could play with anyone. but they also showed they had flaws that made it hard to win if the major part of their game was not running really high. thats true of a lot of teams, but most times 1 seeds have multiple answers, either inside/outside offense/depth at multiple positions/ or a D that cant create issues. helter/skelter teams are not usually 1 seeds
longislandcuse
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The most damning thing about Nova losing as a one seed to NC State is that it wasn't even that much of an upset. If Nova plays NC State 10 times, I think NC State at least splits with them. NC State is more talented and has just as good of a backcourt with better big men. Yes, the 6th or 7th best ACC team is more talented than the top 5 Big East team.
bozophobe
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Yep. It's more about matchups, really. As someone said on another thread, Villanova's 4 guard line-up has historically not been well-suited toward long runs in the tourney. Notre Dame is an even more radical example of a type of team that isn't geared for cutting nets, regardless of what conference they play in. Many times since around 1990, they've had 4 guys shooting over 40% from 3 by Jan. 10-15 or so, but...
BuffOrange
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No argument on the RPI being a joke. But the RPI is a 'metric' in the same way as Vitale is an analyst. All of the intelligent metrics that are closely aligned with Vegas lines (Kenpom, Sagarin, 538) say these teams are for real. Those same metrics also tell you the 4 and 8 seeds in Wichita's region last year were really 2 and 4 seed good; meaning they got what was basically an unprecedented draw, essentially as if they were a 5seed. By comparison in UKs region this year - Cincy/Purdue are rated as 9seeds and Maryland/WVU grade out as 7's. But I know, kenpom sucks and it's all a giant coincidence that it happens every year, I'm sure.