Syracuse Fans Get off the Ledge

[jimcuse]

I think the following article from Atlantic Coast Confidential makes a lot of sense. Being a hard core SU football fan sometimes makes it really hard to see what the real facts are. What do you think?

Syracuse Fans: Get Off The Ledge
Posted on September 7, 2013 by acaffrey
Syracuse looked rough tonight. The 48-27 score was perhaps a bit misleading as it seemed as if Northwestern could have scored a lot more, had they chosen to keep throwing. There is plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth by Syracuse fans tonight. But the Confidential just wants to remind Syracuse fans that they need to come in off the ledge. There are many reasons why.


First, what did you expect? Sure, the Confidential read how Syracuse fans verbally accosted the TNIIAM writer who justified a 4-8 season. However, that was a well-reasoned analysis of a team that lost:

• Its head coach (Doug Marrone) and most of the staff.
• Its QB (Ryan Nassib) to the NFL–without having allowed any real development of an understudy
• Its two best WRs on the team (Alec Lemon and Marcus Sales)
• Its two best OL (Justin Pugh to the NFL and Zack Chibane), as well as a third deciding not to return for a 5th season (Andrew Phillips)
• Two key defensive linemen (Brandon Sharpe and Deon Goggins) to graduation and a third to discipline (Markus Pierce-Brewster)
• Safety Shmarko Thomas to the NFL

That is a lot to lose. It just is. Anyone thinking that the football team would reload like the basketball team was looking through the lens of a fan, not through the lens of an objective college football fan.

Second, it’s been two games, against two very good opponents:

• Penn State was a mediocre kicking performance away from being 9-3 last year. In their final 10 games under brand new coach Bill O’Brien, the Nittany Lions went 8-2, with wins over Northwestern and tough losses to only 12-0 Ohio State and 10-4 Nebraska. They looked a bit beatable in Week 1 against Syracuse with their freshman QB, but looked even better Week 2.
• Northwestern was 10-3 in 2012, with losses @ Penn State, at home to Nebraska (by 1 point), and on the road in overtime to Michigan. And they looked outstanding in Week 1, overcoming injuries to defeat Cal on the road.

What other teams have played a tougher two set of opponents so far this year? Georgia (Clemson and South Carolina), obviously. Virginia (BYU and Oregon)… maybe. Buffalo (Ohio State and Baylor)… perhaps. South Carolina (North Carolina and Georgia)… maybe, but doubtfully. Anyone else? Needless to say, there was no tune-up for all these new players for Syracuse. While most teams had an FCS opponent or cupcake somewhere in Weeks 1 and 2, Syracuse did not.

Third, while the coaching staff for Syracuse has been unimpressive. Again… see #2 above. Moreover, let’s not ignore the similarities to the Doug Marrone era.

• Doug Marrone’s first game was against Minnesota. A Big 10 opponent that had won 7 games the year before. Using a transfer (sort-of) QB in Greg Paulus, the Orange almost pulled out the victory, but fell short. The final score was 23-20.
• This year, Scott Shafer’s first game was against Penn State. A Big 10 opponent that won 8 games last year. Using a transfer (sort-of) QB in Drew Allen, the Orange almost pulled out the victory, but fell short. The final score was 23-17.
• Doug Marrone’s second game required the team to travel to play a Penn State team that would go 11-2, losing its two games to teams that also won 11 games that year. They lost by 21 points–28 to 7. And it was 28-0 until Syracuse scored with less than 5 minutes to go.
• This year, Scott Shafer’s second game required the team to travel to play a Northwestern team that could easily win 11 games this year. They lost by 21 points, 48-27. Worse defense, but better offense.

Some might say that Marrone inherited a worse team. Really? Is Allen that much better than Paulus? Neither took too many snaps between High School and their 5th year. Jerome Smith and PTG are good backs, but so where Delone Carter and Antwon Bailey. And this year’s Syracuse team lacks a Mike Williams, go-to wide receiver. The only edge that could be given to the 2012 team is at LB. However, the 2009 team had LB’s Derrell Smith and Doug Hogue emerge late in the season as studs. But even if they were just learning the position in the first two weeks, keep in mind the other players on that defense included Mike Holmes, Max Suter, Arthur Jones, Chandler Jones, Philip Thomas, and Shmarko Thomas. The defensive cupboard was not completely bare. If anything, the DL and DBs were stronger.

Finally, as bad as Drew Allen has looked a times… he has had moments. But Orange fans also got to see some of the potential of Terrel Hunt. He may be the QB of the future for Syracuse. And that future might be sooner than later. Of course, you also have to like that the team never quit whatsoever. 34-7 halftime led to 48-27 finish. That means that Syracuse outscored Northwestern down the stretch, 20-14. Whatever the reasons and excuses, that is what a team must do after having such a stinker of a first half. Clemson gave up 70 points in a bowl game not too long ago. It is important not to let one bad game, no matter how bad, unduly influence you. Last but not least, 2-2 remains possible. A lot of teams with wins on the slate after Week 2, will end up 2-2 because their tough September opponents still loom. And last year’s team went from 0-2 to 8-5. Maybe the upside this year is lower… but no sense in ignoring history. So come on in off the ledge, Syracuse fans.

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[OrangeCrush22]

It's hard to be optimistic when you've been let down for over a decade. Just when things seem to be coming together they all fall apart.

 

[atcar]

I am sure people will come up with their own comparisons or reasons to say that this writer is comparing apples to oranges but I find it pretty interesting when it is all down on paper like this.

 

[CuseOnly]

Who needs a ledge...I have a very strong drop-ceiling and some phone cord...

 

[CuseOnly]

Honestly, I think we have more than enough talent. It is just being ridiculously mis-used and very, very bad QB play that needs to change.

 

[PhatOrange]

It was more than just a couple of backups in the game. The oline was knapp, Trudo, Mackey, Palmer and lasker.

Hunt, Morris/mcfarlane, brisley, kmoore/parris, Cornelius, funderburke and Lewis were all on the field at points during that hunt series.

 

[KaiserUEO]

It was more than just a couple of backups in the game. The oline was knapp, Trudo, Mackey, Palmer and lasker.

Hunt, Morris/mcfarlane, brisley, kmoore/parris, Cornelius, funderburke and Lewis were all on the field at points during that hunt series.

Yep, the 1st team put up a 6 v their freshmen and walk ons.

Thank The Lord.

 

[CuseOnly]

It was more than just a couple of backups in the game. The oline was knapp, Trudo, Mackey, Palmer and lasker.

Hunt, Morris/mcfarlane, brisley, kmoore/parris, Cornelius, funderburke and Lewis were all on the field at points during that hunt series.

If it was 2nd/3rd stringers against 2nd/3rd stringers, then it was ours against theirs outside of Mackey. Did we recruit that much better for our backups? The recruiting numbers would say no.

I would call it equal...and with Hunt, we won.

 

[timkay99]

Honestly, I think we have more than enough talent. It is just being ridiculously mis-used and very, very bad QB play that needs to change.

I agree 100%. The game was lost on the first 2 offensive series against Northwestern.

I mean, they opened up the playbook, which is fine. But, this team isn't built for Allen to win the game by completing deep passes consistently. Syracuse has to be a team to pound the ball and then keep pounding it. When Syracuse fails to run the ball early and Allen throws incompletions, they fall behind the chains and then have to have Allen throw it down the field anyways.

I also thought Shafer, when he was first hired, was bringing a bump and run scheme. I really wish we went to a lot of jam coverages personally and make teams beat you over the top. But, the zone blitzing scheme can be effective when the rush gets there and can wrap up in the backfield, as last year showed. I think the defense just has games like the Northwestern game on occasion. I am not as worried there b/c the DL does appear to maintain the LOS pretty well against the run. Just can't rush the passer with 4.

 

[k cuse]

Very well said. finally a voice of reason

 

[SoBristol]

Comparisons to Marrone's first year are not what we want. That team was 4-8.

Better to look to last year, when the team started 0-2 versus tough teams, then got better week to week in October-November (except the Cincy game).

Lots to fix (QB, pass defense, positive rushing yardage on first down -- which means we need better line play), but there is time to get better. When things go real bad (first half vs NW), everything can look worse than it really is. Most teams aren't going to have NW's passing attack.

 

[longislandcuse]

Did Otto the Orange write that? No, it's not as rosy as the author makes it sound. It's not that we lost, we didn't look like we belonged in D-1 football. I still have faith we can turn it around but I really don't feel like hearing how the ridiculousness we witnessed Week 1 and 2 were to be expected.

 

[TheCusian]

Good stuff.

I honestly have a hard time staying negative about this team for too long, even with the horrible loss. I'm honestly unable to hate on the staff after 2 games.

It sucks to "start over" - but even had Marrone and co. stayed we'd be starting fresh with a lot of the same issues.

 

[anomander]

I think the following article from Atlantic Coast Confidential makes a lot of sense. Being a hard core SU football fan sometimes makes it really hard to see what the real facts are. What do you think?

Syracuse Fans: Get Off The Ledge
Posted on September 7, 2013 by acaffrey
Syracuse looked rough tonight. The 48-27 score was perhaps a bit misleading as it seemed as if Northwestern could have scored a lot more, had they chosen to keep throwing. There is plenty of wailing and gnashing of teeth by Syracuse fans tonight. But the Confidential just wants to remind Syracuse fans that they need to come in off the ledge. There are many reasons why.


First, what did you expect? Sure, the Confidential read how Syracuse fans verbally accosted the TNIIAM writer who justified a 4-8 season. However, that was a well-reasoned analysis of a team that lost:

• Its head coach (Doug Marrone) and most of the staff.
• Its QB (Ryan Nassib) to the NFL–without having allowed any real development of an understudy
• Its two best WRs on the team (Alec Lemon and Marcus Sales)
• Its two best OL (Justin Pugh to the NFL and Zack Chibane), as well as a third deciding not to return for a 5th season (Andrew Phillips)
• Two key defensive linemen (Brandon Sharpe and Deon Goggins) to graduation and a third to discipline (Markus Pierce-Brewster)
• Safety Shmarko Thomas to the NFL

That is a lot to lose. It just is. Anyone thinking that the football team would reload like the basketball team was looking through the lens of a fan, not through the lens of an objective college football fan.

Second, it’s been two games, against two very good opponents:

• Penn State was a mediocre kicking performance away from being 9-3 last year. In their final 10 games under brand new coach Bill O’Brien, the Nittany Lions went 8-2, with wins over Northwestern and tough losses to only 12-0 Ohio State and 10-4 Nebraska. They looked a bit beatable in Week 1 against Syracuse with their freshman QB, but looked even better Week 2.
• Northwestern was 10-3 in 2012, with losses @ Penn State, at home to Nebraska (by 1 point), and on the road in overtime to Michigan. And they looked outstanding in Week 1, overcoming injuries to defeat Cal on the road.

What other teams have played a tougher two set of opponents so far this year? Georgia (Clemson and South Carolina), obviously. Virginia (BYU and Oregon)… maybe. Buffalo (Ohio State and Baylor)… perhaps. South Carolina (North Carolina and Georgia)… maybe, but doubtfully. Anyone else? Needless to say, there was no tune-up for all these new players for Syracuse. While most teams had an FCS opponent or cupcake somewhere in Weeks 1 and 2, Syracuse did not.

Third, while the coaching staff for Syracuse has been unimpressive. Again… see #2 above. Moreover, let’s not ignore the similarities to the Doug Marrone era.

• Doug Marrone’s first game was against Minnesota. A Big 10 opponent that had won 7 games the year before. Using a transfer (sort-of) QB in Greg Paulus, the Orange almost pulled out the victory, but fell short. The final score was 23-20.
• This year, Scott Shafer’s first game was against Penn State. A Big 10 opponent that won 8 games last year. Using a transfer (sort-of) QB in Drew Allen, the Orange almost pulled out the victory, but fell short. The final score was 23-17.
• Doug Marrone’s second game required the team to travel to play a Penn State team that would go 11-2, losing its two games to teams that also won 11 games that year. They lost by 21 points–28 to 7. And it was 28-0 until Syracuse scored with less than 5 minutes to go.
• This year, Scott Shafer’s second game required the team to travel to play a Northwestern team that could easily win 11 games this year. They lost by 21 points, 48-27. Worse defense, but better offense.

Some might say that Marrone inherited a worse team. Really? Is Allen that much better than Paulus? Neither took too many snaps between High School and their 5th year. Jerome Smith and PTG are good backs, but so where Delone Carter and Antwon Bailey. And this year’s Syracuse team lacks a Mike Williams, go-to wide receiver. The only edge that could be given to the 2012 team is at LB. However, the 2009 team had LB’s Derrell Smith and Doug Hogue emerge late in the season as studs. But even if they were just learning the position in the first two weeks, keep in mind the other players on that defense included Mike Holmes, Max Suter, Arthur Jones, Chandler Jones, Philip Thomas, and Shmarko Thomas. The defensive cupboard was not completely bare. If anything, the DL and DBs were stronger.

Finally, as bad as Drew Allen has looked a times… he has had moments. But Orange fans also got to see some of the potential of Terrel Hunt. He may be the QB of the future for Syracuse. And that future might be sooner than later. Of course, you also have to like that the team never quit whatsoever. 34-7 halftime led to 48-27 finish. That means that Syracuse outscored Northwestern down the stretch, 20-14. Whatever the reasons and excuses, that is what a team must do after having such a stinker of a first half. Clemson gave up 70 points in a bowl game not too long ago. It is important not to let one bad game, no matter how bad, unduly influence you. Last but not least, 2-2 remains possible. A lot of teams with wins on the slate after Week 2, will end up 2-2 because their tough September opponents still loom. And last year’s team went from 0-2 to 8-5. Maybe the upside this year is lower… but no sense in ignoring history. So come on in off the ledge, Syracuse fans.

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Sorry it sounds all nice and stuff, but the situations aren't that comparable. This team has so much more talented then the team Marrone took over I am confident Cuse 2013 would beat Cuse 2012 by a couple touchdowns. This comparison actually would make a reasonable fan feel worse. It hasn't been talent, it has been the schemes. Thanks for trying, but no.

 

[Chip]

0-2 isn't the end of the world. We focus a lot here on "how" it happened, but at the end of the day we're 0-2 with 2 games up next that we'll be considerable favorites to win. Keep working on things, including personnel decisions where necessary. Get to 2-2, which will erase the feeling the team has right now. Then you have week off to prepare for your shock the world in the Dome opportunity.

The first half of that Northwestern game was as bad as anything I can remember seeing in recent history. But the team did fight back to make it look somewhat respectable. They could have easily quit and faced a 55-7 type finish.

Get to 2-2 and hope the momentum either leads to a miracle, or at least leads to enough confidence to take a roadie from NC State, Maryland or GT.

 

[TheCusian]

Sorry it sounds all nice and stuff, but the situations aren't that comparable. This team has so much more talented then the team Marrone took over I am confident Cuse 2013 would beat Cuse 2012 by a couple touchdowns. This comparison actually would make a reasonable fan feel worse. It hasn't been talent, it has been the schemes. Thanks for trying, but no.

Right. New OC and new DC. New schemes. Very comparable.

 

[anomander]

Right. New OC and new DC. New schemes. Very comparable.

The OP is suggesting we are in complete rebuild mode. That couldn't be further from the case.

 

[TheCusian]

The OP is suggesting we are in complete rebuild mode. That couldn't be further from the case.

Didn't get that from it - got that we have new coaches, new QB, etc. and that we shouldn't judge too harshly. Take the edge off the criticism.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Sorry it sounds all nice and stuff, but the situations aren't that comparable. This team has so much more talented then the team Marrone took over I am confident Cuse 2013 would beat Cuse 2012 by a couple touchdowns. This comparison actually would make a reasonable fan feel worse. It hasn't been talent, it has been the schemes. Thanks for trying, but no.

if you believe that we are even close on the offensive side of the ball this year compared to last year your kidding yourself. I could go position by position and its not even really close. For brevity sake, i'll just list Nassib versus any QB on this roster.

think about it in objective terms if you can.

 

[anomander]

if you believe that we are even close on the offensive side of the ball this year compared to last year your kidding yourself. I could go position by position and its not even really close. For brevity sake, i'll just list Nassib versus any QB on this roster.

think about it in objective terms if you can.

I'm not talking about last year vs this year, but if you want to say Drew Allen/Terrel Hunt vs Greg Paulus we may be onto something. He is comparing this team to the team Marrone inherited and that's not even close to the truth. That team had what 50 something scholarship players? All i'm saying is this isn't a total rebuild, like the OP is implying.

 

[anomander]

Didn't get that from it - got that we have new coaches, new QB, etc. and that we shouldn't judge too harshly. Take the edge off the criticism.

Well when he is comparing the personnel we have now to the personnel that Marrone inherited how should I judge it? That's what I got from that.

 

[TheCusian]

Well when he is comparing the personnel we have now to the personnel that Marrone inherited how should I judge it? That's what I got from that.

I agree the talent gap is tilted towards this years team - but it's still not at some mythical level where we can survive a new OC, QB, HC, DC, etc. and pick up where we left off.

Seemed like the intent of the article was to say "relax" we've been here before and we will get better. If its as you infer, and I agree - then the climb back will be less steep and we'll be back sooner than that squad.

Reason to get off the ledge, get to the dome - and believe we can compete with every team on the schedule.

 

[Chip]

if you believe that we are even close on the offensive side of the ball this year compared to last year your kidding yourself. I could go position by position and its not even really close. For brevity sake, i'll just list Nassib versus any QB on this roster.

think about it in objective terms if you can.

Yeah, I must be getting into my midweek sympathetic mode a little early. But think about everything we lost. Nassib is the biggest piece by far. Look what's happening at USC, trying to replace Barkley. It's a complete disaster, even with Marquise Lee still there.

Then throw in the 2 WRs who caught the majority of passes thrown to WRs. We were excited about last year's #3 guy being the #1, but never really allowed for the possibility that maybe West had a nice season because he was the #3 guy and so much focus was placed on Lemon and Sales. We lost the best offensive lineman on the team, who is also one of the best offensive tackles that ever played at this school. Lost another multi-year starting guard. You can tell this is hurting the run game.

Getting us from GRob to respectable was one big step we took under Marrone. But even some of the biggest schools out there have trouble reloading. This doesn't even touch on who our first two opponents were or that we have an almost all new offensive staff, which wasn't our choice. If Marrone and Hackett stayed, yes, I'm sure the continuity would have different results. Not 2012 levels, but probably running the ball better, and probably not throwing the ball to the other team as much. Keep in mind that we didn't start running the ball well last year until Pugh was back.

That's a lot of words about the offense, I think the D will ultimately have less excuses if we see more efforts like Saturday. You just can't give up 387 yards and 34 points in the first half like that.

 

[anomander]

I agree the talent gap is tilted towards this years team - but it's still not at some mythical level where we can survive a new OC, QB, HC, DC, etc. and pick up where we left off.

Seemed like the intent of the article was to say "relax" we've been here before and we will get better. If its as you infer, and I agree - then the climb back will be less steep and we'll be back sooner than that squad.

Reason to get off the ledge, get to the dome - and believe we can compete with every team on the schedule.

I guess that's the reason I'm not on the ledge. I know we are much more talented then we were 4 years ago and still expect to have a solid season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - http://tapatalk.com/m/

 

[Lou_C]

I pretty much agree with the staying off the ledge sentiment. Syracuse lost to two teams it was supposed to lose to. One a little worse than expected, and one a little closer than expected. If they had happened in the reverse order, everyone would be talking about what an improvement.

There's going to be bumps along the way. You guys simply are out-talented by a lot of the teams on the schedule. Yes, NW probably doesn't have much better recruits, but they have great continuity and are a well oiled machine right now. That didn't happen overnight.

Who knows if this coaching staff is the right one or not, but you need a massive upgrade in talent to get to where you want to be. There's a handful of coaches at best that can somewhat consistently win with lesser regarded talent, and even those guys weren't doing it one or two games into their first gig. They built to it.

People whose livings depend on getting these things right see this as a 4-5 win team. You can hope for more, but expecting more so soon is not realistic with this schedule.

The question is how you change that. There's probably not more than one or two coaches in the game that would get more than 6 wins out of this team and schedule.

This season is no worse than expected. It's about how you build from here. It's all about recruiting.