That proformance lastnight would of beaten the dream team.

[JarHeadJim]

Well maybe not but that was some ammasing shoting.

 

[SteveC]

I personally think the '92 team would have won. In my opinion they had the advantage defensively and in size. Rebounding too. I'd place Pippen on LeBron, MJ on Kobe. Magic had the height advantage on the '12 point guards. You'd hope Stockton could keep Williams and Paul in check. But down low is a huge advantage for '92. Chandler wouldn't see the floor (and neither would dwight imo) if he played on the dream team.

The danger for the '92 team would be transition and matching up defensively with a line-up of, say, James-Bryant-Durant-Melo-Chandler (Pg,Sg,Sf,Pf,C) which is a line-up i feel you would atleast have to try out.

Who do you think would make the 12 man team of both the '92 and '12 teams combined?
I had:
1. Chris Paul, John Stockton
2. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant
3. Scottie Pippen, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant
4. Charles Barkley, Lebron James, Karl Malone
5. David Robinson, Patrick Eweing
(Magic Johnson was a bit out of shape and hadn't played for a year, Larry Bird had a bum back.) Best of 7 i have '92 winning 4 games to 2.

 

[Knicks411]

Chandler wouldn't see the floor (and neither would dwight imo) if he played on the dream team.

Agree on Chander, disagree greatly on Dwight. You can tell by my screen name what team I a fan of, but I still think Dwight is a clearly superior player to Ewing.

I had:
1. Chris Paul, John Stockton
2. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant
3. Scottie Pippen, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Durant
4. Charles Barkley, Lebron James, Karl Malone
5. David Robinson, Patrick Eweing

Interesting question. My initial thought was Melo seems a bit out of place on this team; but maybe that's wrong. But you basically had to Lebron at the 4 in order to get Melo on there. I think I'd rather Chris Mullin or someone; he may not have been a better player than Melo (though he may have been) but if I'm trying to put together a team I think I'd need some more elite shooting somewhere on the roster.

Also, I don't know if this was supposed to be a starting lineup or not, but Lebron is in the starting 5.

Edit: To me, the 08 team would have been a better match for the 92 team. I love Chandler, but this team doesn't have enough quality size to go against Ewing and Robinson. You throw Dwight on the team and it's a much closer comparison.

 

[Melancer46]

Well yeah, if you shoot like 80% from 3 point range on 30+ attempts, there isn't anything anybody can do to beat you.

But the dream team was a lot better than this team.

 

[longislandcuse]

Dream Team '92 was better but last night Team USA was a buzzsaw. That was the most dominating performance by a Dream Team ever. They could have scored 200 and won by triple figures if they wanted to.

 

[armory]

I don't think there should be a shred of doubt that against that performance yesterday, any team of any era would have lost.

 

[DeGrozz]

I know yesterday was an extremely impressive shooting display, but have you ever seen a team get so confused by simple pick and pop? That was the equivalent of batting practice for the US team.

Nonetheless, I haven't seen shooting like that since the first half on April 7, 2003!

 

[Orangeyes]

The only game that SU played that was, in a way, similar was vs Georgia Tech in the 1st half where everything was going in. We scored 58 before the break. We pulled in the reins in the second half only scoring 34 and winning 92-65. That was in December of 2002.

Box Score

But what we saw yesterday was a once in a lifetime game.

 

[alphaorange]

Agree on Chander, disagree greatly on Dwight. You can tell by my screen name what team I a fan of, but I still think Dwight is a clearly superior player to Ewing.

Geez, 411...you must be young. Dwight couldn't carry Ewing's jock. Howard is extremely fortunate that he plays in an era with a real dearth of talented true big men. Take the Howard of today and move him to '92 and he most likely doesn't make the allstar team.

As far as this game's shooting exhibition, it would never happen against the '92 team. The open looks would have been replaced by contested shots. The % would have dropped like a stone. If that performance was against a world class team, I might think differently.

 

[Knicks411]

Geez, 411...you must be young. Dwight couldn't carry Ewing's jock. Howard is extremely fortunate that he plays in an era with a real dearth of talented true big men. Take the Howard of today and move him to '92 and he most likely doesn't make the allstar team.

I guess it's one of those things neither of us can really prove, so there's nowhere to go with this.

Howard is a dominant big man. I can see an argument for putting David Robinson ahead of him, but as much as I love Ewing, I don't really see it. The guy is a defensive dynamo. (And I love Ewing, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Dwight is miles ahead of Ewing or anything, but I would take Dwight over Ewing if I was picking a team.). Orlando is consistently a top 3 defensive team, and if you set aside Dwight, I don't see a whole lot of good defensive players on the team.

You are right that there aren't as many quality centers now as there have been in the past, but this guy is A) clearly the best big man in the game right now, and B) a physical freak. You really think he'd be out of his element with Robinson and Ewing? It's not like he's undersized or anything. He's going to rebound and block shots in any era.

 

[jdubs30]

I guess it's one of those things neither of us can really prove, so there's nowhere to go with this.

Howard is a dominant big man. I can see an argument for putting David Robinson ahead of him, but as much as I love Ewing, I don't really see it. The guy is a defensive dynamo. (And I love Ewing, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Dwight is miles ahead of Ewing or anything, but I would take Dwight over Ewing if I was picking a team.). Orlando is consistently a top 3 defensive team, and if you set aside Dwight, I don't see a whole lot of good defensive players on the team.

You are right that there aren't as many quality centers now as there have been in the past, but this guy is A) clearly the best big man in the game right now, and B) a physical freak. You really think he'd be out of his element with Robinson and Ewing? It's not like he's undersized or anything. He's going to rebound and block shots in any era.

Dwight hasn't gone against anyone even close to Ewing since he's been in the league. He has the height to matchup with D12 and was extremely consistent/sound offensively.

Dwight is the best C in the NBA right now because:
1) Not many C's are fundamentally sound anymore, so they rely on their strength and athleticism to be successful
2) Dwight is the strongest and most athletic C in the NBA.

Gasol is kind of a different breed and is not a traditional C like Ewing was.

I do think D12 would give Ewing problems, but I don't think he's clearly superior to him (Ewing). But in the same sense you could say Ewing really never went against someone like D12 (Robinson maybe?).

 

[Knicks411]

I do think D12 would give Ewing problems, but I don't think he's clearly superior to him (Ewing). But in the same sense you could say Ewing really never went against someone like D12 (Robinson maybe?).

I think that's totally fair. I'd go with Dwight over Ewing, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a slam dunk. But saying Dwight can't hold Ewing's jock is too much.

I do think Robinson is the best big man comp for Dwight.

 

[jdubs30]

I think that's totally fair. I'd go with Dwight over Ewing, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a slam dunk. But saying Dwight can't hold Ewing's jock is too much.

I do think Robinson is the best big man comp for Dwight.

I'm only 23, so I don't remember a whole lot of Ewing, but I agree that "he can't hold his jock" is probably a tad excessive. Let's face it, Dwight is the best pure C since Shaq was in his prime; Ewing is a great player but I think that's an insult to Howard.

I think if they lined up 5 on 5 the '92 team would be shocked how big and athletic the 2012 is. I remember Barkley talking about how Dirk dropped 50 on Pippen and Team USA when he was an 18 year old. I think matching up with Durant/LeBron would be extremely tough for 1992. Especially since you could literally go with a lineup of Westbrook-LeBron-Durant-Bynum-Howard; Stockton on Westbrook? MJ giving up 60 pounds and 3 inches to LeBron? Bird on Durant?

 

[MikeSU02]

I think that's totally fair. I'd go with Dwight over Ewing, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily a slam dunk. But saying Dwight can't hold Ewing's jock is too much.

I do think Robinson is the best big man comp for Dwight.

Howard isn't in the same class as Robinson. Robinson was the same defensive presence and a much greater offensive force. Against a class of centers much greater than now.

Howard is great. But he isn't THAT great.

 

[Knicks411]

I meant more in terms of how they play, re: Dwight and Robinson. They are both supremely athletic and agile 7 footers. You can probably throw the Dream in this group as well.

I would agree that Robinson was more of a scorer, in his rookie year (which was his age 24 season, btw) he averaged 23.9 points per 36 minutes; Dwight has never gotten there in his career so far. Of course, for as long as Dwight has played in the league, he'll still be 26 when next season begins. Robinson was a much more developed offensive player, but i think you may be selling Dwight a little short defensively. Howard is a much better rebounder; for his career Dwight has a career defensive rebounding% of 29.5. Robinson's career high single season defensive rebounding% was 24.8. Put into raw terms, so far Dwight has averaged 1.5 more defensive rebounds per 36 minutes than Robinson did, and Robinson has never had a single season where he had as many defensive rebounds per 36 minutes as Dwight has averaged. A 20 year old Dwight Howard pulled down more defensive rebounds per 36 min than David Robinson did for any season his career. Robinson was a more impressive shotblocker.

To circle back to the point, I would tak e Robinson over Dwight as well. I think Dwight may be the better defensive player, but Robinson is clearly a better offensive player, and while Dwight looks to be improving on that end, he has a ways to go to match Robinson offensively.

Also worth adding that Robinson played with much better defensive rebounders than Dwight has.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Robinson
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html
Howard
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html
He can't read this link
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ewingpa01.html

Tough to compare C stats since Howard has no peers in the NBA today. 1992 All Star Centers were Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Mutumbo, and Daugherty vs 2012 All Star Centers Howard, Hibbert, Bynum, and Gasol

 

[SteveC]

Most civilized discussion i've seen in quite a while.

My initial thought was Melo seems a bit out of place on this team; but maybe that's wrong

That might be true. I do think he would make the team but he might be at the end of the bench. I had him over KD because of what i believe to be a more complete offensive game. but looking over the team you've got everything there already and KD is probably the better 3 point shooter. As to LeBron starting.. i just loved the way Barkley played. Total bias on my part. (I'd keep LeBron at the 4 even without Melo)

I would take Ewing over Howard in any fantasy draft solely because you can throw the ball to him anywhere inside the arc and he'll be able to score. add in some very good defense and rebounding and i think that makes him a better overall player than D12. Looking at the basketball-reference pages i feel like Dwight should be a better shot blocker than he is?

On a side note I'm too young to hate Ewing. I'm 20 years old and grew up a Knicks (and NBA) fan for quite a few years before i became a Syracuse fan. My only memories of Georgetown are SU beating them into the ground. The only reason it hurt the few times we've lost to them is because they weren't as good as we were and we shouldn't have lost those games.

 

[alphaorange]

I guess it's one of those things neither of us can really prove, so there's nowhere to go with this.

Howard is a dominant big man. I can see an argument for putting David Robinson ahead of him, but as much as I love Ewing, I don't really see it. The guy is a defensive dynamo. (And I love Ewing, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Dwight is miles ahead of Ewing or anything, but I would take Dwight over Ewing if I was picking a team.). Orlando is consistently a top 3 defensive team, and if you set aside Dwight, I don't see a whole lot of good defensive players on the team.

You are right that there aren't as many quality centers now as there have been in the past, but this guy is A) clearly the best big man in the game right now, and B) a physical freak. You really think he'd be out of his element with Robinson and Ewing? It's not like he's undersized or anything. He's going to rebound and block shots in any era.

Mutombo rebounded as well and was better at blocking/altering shots. Dwight is also not a good on the ball defender at his position. Before you anoint him as something he really is not, check and see how many huge games he has had against legit big men. Ewing was over 3 blocks/game 5 times in his career, a mark that Howard has yet to achieve. Ewings best year was 29/11/4, and Howard has not been close. Ewing played against a long list of capable to great centers at different points of his career and was a dominant force. Moses Malone, Jabbar(2nd team all NBA in '85), Parish, Hakeem, Robinson, Divac, Mutombo, Shaq (in his prime, no less). Ewing did a lot with very little around him and, but for a stacked Chicago team and a John Starks stinker, would have a ring(s).

Please don't make the mistake of comparing a very good rebounder and shot blocker to one of the top ten centers of all time. Howard is a smaller Mutombo with a slightly better offense. He also plays in a time when there are very few true centers. He is the best of a poor crop.

 

[Knicks411]

I think you are selling Dwight a bit short. He's a much much better offensive player than Mutombo. Mutombo didn't shoot much (15% usage) and had good efficiency (57% true shooting). Dwight plays a much larger role in his team's offense (23.5 usage) and is still more efficient (60 true shooting%). Mutombo averaged 11.5 points per 36 minutes, Dwight is miles ahead of him at 18.3. Mutombo had one season in his career where he averaged more than 14 points per 36 minutes. Dwight Howard is miles better offensively than Mutombo; it's not even a discussion.

I think Robinson is clearly better than Dwight. I'd take Dwight over Ewing, but I concede it's close. I'm not calling him the best big man of all time or anything like that. Ewing anchored some of the best defensive teams of all time and I grew up on Ewing. He's my favorite Knick (and therefore favorite player) of all time.

Just looking at their rebounding totals, Ewing's are pretty low for a great C but i think part of that is probably because he was playing with some strong rebounders as well. If you look at total rebound%, Ewing's career high was 18.2%. Dwight has been over 20% every season since his rookie year. A lot of defensive rebounds are discretionary, but that's kind of a big difference. Offensive rebounds are much less discretionary, and every season of Dwight's career he's had a better offensive rebounding% than Ewing had in his best season.

You're definitely right about the competition; there were much better C active in the early mid 90's than there are now and that would be a knock on comparing Dwight to Ewing. Maybe I am also projecting a bit here; Dwight has been improving his offensive game the last few years, he's getting his usage rate up to the 26-27% range and he's basically maintaining his efficiency; I may be giving him credit for assuming he's going to keep that going in the next few years. I do think Dwight will be considered one of th 10 best big men of all time when his career is done. It can be difficult to compare a 26 year old player to a guy who has been retired for a decade.

 

[Knicks411]

I've been thinking about the whole idea of the lack of quality C in the game today, and recently. I'm sure part of that is just how these things work and go in cycles, but I wonder if part of it is just the way the game is changing. Kevin Garnett is listed at 6-11 (and is probably even taller than that) and is rightfully considered one of the 20 or so best players in the history of the game, but I don't think he's considered a great C. Dirk is listed at 7-0, also considered one of the better players of all time, and not a C. Tim Duncan is similar, though I think more people think of him as a C than not.

I wonder if this is just where the game is going, of if it's just a fluke. It's not like there are a lack of talented players 6-10 or taller. And hell, Bill Russell was listed at 6-9 213 and is maybe the greatest big man of all time.

 

[alphaorange]

I've been thinking about the whole idea of the lack of quality C in the game today, and recently. I'm sure part of that is just how these things work and go in cycles, but I wonder if part of it is just the way the game is changing. Kevin Garnett is listed at 6-11 (and is probably even taller than that) and is rightfully considered one of the 20 or so best players in the history of the game, but I don't think he's considered a great C. Dirk is listed at 7-0, also considered one of the better players of all time, and not a C. Tim Duncan is similar, though I think more people think of him as a C than not.

I wonder if this is just where the game is going, of if it's just a fluke. It's not like there are a lack of talented players 6-10 or taller. And hell, Bill Russell was listed at 6-9 213 and is maybe the greatest big man of all time.

It's definitely not Howard's fault that there are not a lot of real centers but that doesn't change anything. Being tall doesn't make you a center and playing the 5 doesn't make you center. It just makes you a guy playing center (see Melo, Olympics, 2012). I've been a huge Knick fan since the late 60's and IMO, Howard is just a blip on the screen. He's a physical freak with not a lot of basketball skills. Dave Cowens was 6'8 or 6'9 and he would have fouled Howard out in a quarter. Ewing, Hakeem, and Robinson were all roughly equal and would have averaged 30 against Howard. Dwight's offensive game is almost non-existent outside of lobs and dunks. Howard is flash and not a whole lot of substance. If you analyze his skills while ignoring his athleticism, there just isn't much there in the sense of passing, shooting, ball handling, or game IQ. He's charming, disarming, and explosive as hell but I've seen lots of players with the same qualities that were nothing more role players. He benefits from timing.

As far as centers being cyclical, I disagree. Most big guys don't WANT to play center for various reasons. Garnett was adamant that he play forward, right from the start. He is 7'+, btw. Ralph Sampson insisted on being a forward, too. Unless you're a top dog, centers don't get much glory. The game is not much different than it was when Durant was drafted and Oden went #1. As you know, Oden was a true back to the basket center, just as Bynum is. If there is a big time center available, teams fight like hell for them. If the game has changed, it is because teams have to find a way to compete without having a great center, not because they prefer to play without one.

 

[Knicks411]

Just seems to me that the game has changed in the last 10-15 years; Sampson was a guy in the past who fought being a center, but there seem to be more guys like that now. Maybe I'm making that up, but I think 30 years ago KG is a center.

Dwight's offensive game is almost non-existent outside of lobs and dunks.

I think you are selling him short a bit. He has improved his offensive game the last few years. He's not Kareem or Kevin McHale on the block, but he's got more moves down there then he did a few years ago.

If you analyze his skills while ignoring his athleticism, there just isn't much there in the sense of passing, shooting, ball handling, or game IQ.

I agree with most of this, his assist rates are microscopic, he can't shoot FT, and he gets a lot of offensive fouls.

He's charming, disarming, and explosive as hell but I've seen lots of players with the same qualities that were nothing more role players. He benefits from timing.

I can't agree with this. There have been very few 7 footers in the history of the league that have been gifted with his athleticism. (I'm trying to think; Wilt, Robinson, Hakeem. Maybe I'm forgetting a few? Sampson?) He's 26 years old and he already has 4 seasons in the top 35 for defensive rebounding %. (Camby has 6 of the top 30 seasons, so I'm thinking the Knicks will be much better on the glass next year) The guy is a legitimately great rebounder and while he's not a classic back to the basket scorer he is an improving one. And he still is ridiculously young. He'll be 26 on opening night.

We should probably just agree to revisit this one in about 10 years.