That was tough to take! but

[jordoo]

Wow is all I can say. I cannot remember an SU team making that many mistakes on both ends over and over again for most of the game. I know its very early in the season but I have to say that was disheartening. I'm not giving up and in general I really like the collection of players but it seems we may have a couple of flaws that cannot be fixed or masked this year.

1. Depth at center. This is a major issue especially the way Christmas seems to be a magnet for a couple bad calls a game (amazing how consistently for 4 years he gets at least 1 foul called on him a game that makes no sense). Add the 1 or 2 really bad fouls he makes and that's about it. JB didn't even consider sending Chino in and wouldn't have unless Chris picked up 4 as well. Light at the end of the tunnel is that DC2 is practicing and Chris actually looks like he could hold down the fort in the middle IF the rest of the D comes together.

2. Chris needs to be 20 pounds stronger. He simply won't be this year. Yes he can learn to keep the ball higher and go more aggressively and more quickly around the basket to pick up fouls but he doesn't look like he will be able to finish through much contact and he gets bumped off his path all game long with or without the ball. He also looses the ball in traffic and on rebounds because of a lack of strength. I think he can play in ways to help with this and get tougher but its not going to go away. He needs to eat Thanksgiving Dinner every 3rd day.

The bright side is that other than that offensive and defensive execution can and will be improved as we gain experience and practice. This team went Deer in Headlights in that first half when Cal started sticking it to us. We had no team action on offense and we were reacting late on defense without much activity. The young guys think so much they look slow and then they are predictable or the defense has caught up to them. Mike looked very fast and a lot of that is simply confidence and instinctive decision making. We also had n cohesion on offense which was once of the reasons we shot so poorly. Lots of one on one stuff and jumpers that guys didn't really have a lot of space on. These things will come for guys like Kaleb, Tyler, Buss, Chris and BJ. The talent is no where near as poor as it looked and we won't play the whole season like we are shellshocked which was a big part of the problem on defense. When we made some baskets and got energized in the second half the defense was super active for a 3-4 minute stretch and even with the mistakes it was much better.

I expect the defense is going to have to be the calling card until the offense comes together and a big thing to watch tonight is activity more than execution on both ends. This will tell us a lot. Win or lose if we come out and compete hard with energy for the whole game its a very good sign. I actually hope that the whooping we got has the effect of loosening guys like Roberson and Kaleb up. They are all ready making all the mistakes might as well let it all hang out and just play. The Kaleb Joseph I saw last night was not the kid I saw in the Carlton game. He has still has all those skills and that confidence he just needs to take a deep breath and play. He is the key to getting things rolling on offense and as bad as he was I don't think he is as far away as people think. It looked to me like he was trying to be extra careful and only make the sure handed play which caused most of his issues. He needs to play like Kaleb Joseph and not like anyone else.

I knew we would struggle at times this year but I gotta admit that was shocking. Still lets see how they bounce back tonight because no way we can fix all the strategy thing in 24 hours so what we will be seeing is the character of the guys, their fight and how they are choosing to move forward. I want energy and effort tonight.

Still think this team winds up being pretty good and there is nowhere to go but up so we will get to see the young players develop.

 

[NKR1978]

Game sucked. Let's see how they respond tonight.

The defense should get better as the season wears on and the offense should improve with better decision making and as the game slows down for Joseph.

I really like the the idea of this team. Just hope they put it together.

 

[jordoo]

I really like the the idea of this team. Just hope they put it together.

Exactly its an idea of a team right now but there is a long way to go for it to go from idea to application stage. LOL.

I think Joseph will look like a completely different player in 5-6 games once he comes to the realization that he is going to make mistakes and playing cautiously and hesitantly will only exasperate them and make them worse. When he gets this he will see that he will make less mistakes that aren't as bad if he plays aggressively and decisively.

 

[SBU72]

Wow is all I can say. I cannot remember an SU team making that many mistakes on both ends over and over again for most of the game. I know its very early in the season but I have to say that was disheartening. I'm not giving up and in general I really like the collection of players but it seems we may have a couple of flaws that cannot be fixed or masked this year.

1. Depth at center. This is a major issue especially the way Christmas seems to be a magnet for a couple bad calls a game (amazing how consistently for 4 years he gets at least 1 foul called on him a game that makes no sense). Add the 1 or 2 really bad fouls he makes and that's about it. JB didn't even consider sending Chino in and wouldn't have unless Chris picked up 4 as well. Light at the end of the tunnel is that DC2 is practicing and Chris actually looks like he could hold down the fort in the middle IF the rest of the D comes together.

2. Chris needs to be 20 pounds stronger. He simply won't be this year. Yes he can learn to keep the ball higher and go more aggressively and more quickly around the basket to pick up fouls but he doesn't look like he will be able to finish through much contact and he gets bumped off his path all game long with or without the ball. He also looses the ball in traffic and on rebounds because of a lack of strength. I think he can play in ways to help with this and get tougher but its not going to go away. He needs to eat Thanksgiving Dinner every 3rd day.

The bright side is that other than that offensive and defensive execution can and will be improved as we gain experience and practice. This team went Deer in Headlights in that first half when Cal started sticking it to us. We had no team action on offense and we were reacting late on defense without much activity. The young guys think so much they look slow and then they are predictable or the defense has caught up to them. Mike looked very fast and a lot of that is simply confidence and instinctive decision making. We also had n cohesion on offense which was once of the reasons we shot so poorly. Lots of one on one stuff and jumpers that guys didn't really have a lot of space on. These things will come for guys like Kaleb, Tyler, Buss, Chris and BJ. The talent is no where near as poor as it looked and we won't play the whole season like we are shellshocked which was a big part of the problem on defense. When we made some baskets and got energized in the second half the defense was super active for a 3-4 minute stretch and even with the mistakes it was much better.

I expect the defense is going to have to be the calling card until the offense comes together and a big thing to watch tonight is activity more than execution on both ends. This will tell us a lot. Win or lose if we come out and compete hard with energy for the whole game its a very good sign. I actually hope that the whooping we got has the effect of loosening guys like Roberson and Kaleb up. They are all ready making all the mistakes might as well let it all hang out and just play. The Kaleb Joseph I saw last night was not the kid I saw in the Carlton game. He has still has all those skills and that confidence he just needs to take a deep breath and play. He is the key to getting things rolling on offense and as bad as he was I don't think he is as far away as people think. It looked to me like he was trying to be extra careful and only make the sure handed play which caused most of his issues. He needs to play like Kaleb Joseph and not like anyone else.

I knew we would struggle at times this year but I gotta admit that was shocking. Still lets see how they bounce back tonight because no way we can fix all the strategy thing in 24 hours so what we will be seeing is the character of the guys, their fight and how they are choosing to move forward. I want energy and effort tonight.

Still think this team winds up being pretty good and there is nowhere to go but up so we will get to see the young players develop.

One thing that I have noticed is now that Xmas has found his offense, he is black hole. Balls go in but don't come out. Double teamed, triple teamed, out to far. Nothing seems to mater.CM is close to the same thing in the key. While CM may be talented enough to get away with this, Xmas is not. If the offensive is going to be inside out, then there has to be an out. Joseph is making freshman mistakes. We just have to get use to that after 2 years of seeing really skilled 1st year pgs. I was surprised that Buss didn't get more playing time.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Some reasonable discussion! JB has a lot of work to do here. Looking forward to tonight's game!

 

[jordoo]

One thing that I have noticed is now that Xmas has found his offense, he is black hole. Balls go in but don't come out. Double teamed, triple teamed, out to far. Nothing seems to mater.CM is close to the same thing in the key. While CM may be talented enough to get away with this, Xmas is not. If the offensive is going to be inside out, then there has to be an out. Joseph is making freshman mistakes. We just have to get use to that after 2 years of seeing really skilled 1st year pgs. I was surprised that Buss didn't get more playing time.

I wondered if this was because he felt he needed to score to get us going or what because it didn't seem as bad in the first couple of games but last night even when it wasn't there he was shooting. He picked up his forth by forcing a shot and then going over the top of his defender to try and get the rebound. Obviously he is much better this year but he like the others has a totally new role to figure out how to play.

 

[SBU72]

I wondered if this was because he felt he needed to score to get us going or what because it didn't seem as bad in the first couple of games but last night even when it wasn't there he was shooting. He picked up his forth by forcing a shot and then going over the top of his defender to try and get the rebound. Obviously he is much better this year but he like the others has a totally new role to figure out how to play.

Actually I thought he was just as bad in the previous games, that is why I made the comment. Plenty of times he was double teamed and still tried to make the shot. More often then looking of the open man. Much more.

 

[jordoo]

Actually I thought he was just as bad in the previous games, that is why I made the comment. Plenty of times he was double teamed and still tried to make the shot. More often then looking of the open man. Much more.

He certainly shot over and through doubles in the other games but I also remember him finding guys out of there a couple times and at least looking. Last night I can't even remember seeing him look once when he caught the ball. He was pretty much shooting it one way or another and as his foul count grew and the lead did he seemed it seemed to be even worse.

 

[jimsonjunction]

When G clanged his massive slam, that was a huge turning point. Give Cal credit for following that up with two dagger 3's. I take solace in the fact that up until that point, I was very confident we would win the game. It seemed like the train got off the tracks and we couldn't get back on. Hoping for a better outcome tonight!

 

[CusefanATL]

I really like the the idea of this team. Just hope they put it together.

I do too... If JB can keep this team motivated, I really wouldnt be surprised to see a Izzo Mich St like season.

However, in my mind, I think we may be playing for next year. I def think we will be top 5 next year is CM stays.

 

[jordoo]

When G clanged his massive slam, that was a huge turning point. Give Cal credit for following that up with two dagger 3's. I take solace in the fact that up until that point, I was very confident we would win the game. It seemed like the train got off the tracks and we couldn't get back on. Hoping for a better outcome tonight!

That is a good point. I believe it was a 2 point game or something and Rak had just sat down with 2 maybe 3 minutes left in the half. Then they bombarded us and we fell apart. Truthfully as bad as we played it was the last 5min of the 1st half and the first 5min of the second half that killed us. Other than that we played with them OK through the bad offense and missed defensive assignments.

 

[SBU72]

He certainly shot over and through doubles in the other games but I also remember him finding guys out of there a couple times and at least looking. Last night I can't even remember seeing him look once when he caught the ball. He was pretty much shooting it one way or another and as his foul count grew and the lead did he seemed it seemed to be even worse.

You're right in that he did look previously but not enough for an offense that is suppose to work inside out. He's a kid with a new toy. It took him 4 years to learn his offense, much to his credit, but he now has to learn how to give up the ball and he doesn't have even a year to do it.

 

[jordoo]

You're right in that he did look previously but not enough for an offense that is suppose to work inside out. He's a kid with a new toy. It took him 4 years to learn his offense, much to his credit, but he now has to learn how to give up the ball and he doesn't have even a year to do it.

Agreed having the ability and being able to score does not mean he knows how to play as a focal point in the post. Great post players not only make the defense want to help they also make them fear doubling. Rak has shown in the past that he can pass so its all about learning when, how and were to go with ball as opposed to when he needs to shoot.

 

[pfister1]

Agreed having the ability and being able to score does not mean he knows how to play as a focal point in the post. Great post players not only make the defense want to help they also make them fear doubling. Rak has shown in the past that he can pass so its all about learning when, how and were to go with ball as opposed to when he needs to shoot.

And nothing like a blow out to help you learn that lesson. In the first two games it may not have been as obvious because the empty offensive possessions didn't hurt us as much (although it helped Hampton stick with us). Last night in the second half the empty possessions seemed to be followed by Cal daggers.

 

[VaBeachOrFan]

Good analysis from jordoo. . . . here are some additional observations:

1. And we wonder why JB doesn't play freshmen unless he has to. Too much tentativeness; too many errant passes; little fluidity. Yuck! The game was too fast for them and they couldn't stop rushing their shots. That said, however, there are some remedies because this team has talent and potential.

2. Cal's game plan was to force SU to take contested shots, knowing that shooting was a weakness. Yet several times an Orange player would receive a pass on the perimeter -- with the kind of space Cooney can only dream about -- and pass up the shot to drive into the defense until he took a (gasp) contested shot and was blocked, fouled or lost the ball! Take the open shot. The worst that can happen is a miss and a chance for an offensive rebound.

3. Poor passing. Several times players found Cooney open but the pass was not where it needed to be for him to shoot in rhythm. He had to reach for the ball and the defender closed on him. Cooney rushed some shots (one of his bad habits) and didn't square up on others (the other bad habit), but not all of that is on him. Need more accurate passes.

4. There were flashes of smothering defense, with a number of play clocks down below 5 seconds before Cal either managed to make an off-balance shot or get bailed out by a foul. Orange players need to own that defense and use the clock as a weapon. Pressure and contest but avoid the foul. Cal several times let themselves get trapped silly in the corner -- maybe waste a time out. More pressure. But for some reason, SU slacked off that defensive intensity late in the first half and Cal ran off 6 out of 7 shots to put the Orange in a hole from which they never recovered because they couldn't make shots. So either start making shots or play defense with intensity for the whole game. That game was in fact winnable, I believe.

5. So we know Christmas is prone to foul trouble (and so does their opponent). The team needs to feed Rak as much as they can (without forcing plays that aren't there, of course) to wring as much offense from him as they can while he's on the court. Make him more efficient in terms of points per minute played and then play a perimeter game when he's on the bench. Don't waste a scarce resource.

6. Lastly, who's in charge? The mix of freshmen could have worked if Grant had come back to be the floor leader. Rak is a contributor, not a takeover guy -- especially since he has difficulty avoiding fouls. Cooney is a contributor, when he's on. That leaves G as the Go To Guy for now, at least until the freshmen develop further.

In sum, I agree with jordoo that this team will go as far as its defense takes it. Master the Zone, play to their length, rebound like demons, and take the open shot whenever they get it. For the forwards -- Mac, Roberson, BJ, G -- if they're not big enough this year to drive and bang inside, then whoever has the open outside shot should take it and the others close in to rebound a miss. They've all got good strokes, and rebounding -- like a coat of paint -- can cover a lot of mistakes.

Still a glass half full IMHO, though it's a slow pour.-VBOF

 

[jordoo]

And nothing like a blow out to help you learn that lesson. In the first two games it may not have been as obvious because the empty offensive possessions didn't hurt us as much (although it helped Hampton stick with us). Last night in the second half the empty possessions seemed to be followed by Cal daggers.

There was just no way to come back when we were as likely to force a bad shot or turn it over as we were to get a decent look. Add in the defensive mistakes and there you are. After this trip we will clean up a lot of issues on both ends and the coaches will have the kids attention.

 

[asj410]

Not much to add, but as miserable as that game was to watch, I REALLY like what I saw out of Gbinije. He was so incredibly passive last year, but there were definite flashes of his abilities. I love how aggressive he was last night. Sucked that that monster jam didn't go down, but it was great to see him make that kind of move. That dunk attempt reminded me of what MCW did a few times during his sophomore year where he'd just come flying in and slam it home. Hopefully his finishes are more MCW instead of Triche going forward

 

[Madbiker]

Rak forced up some horrendous shots last night. That doesn't help. How about passing it back out? His best move last night after the opening play slam dunk was the steamroller move. Get the ball 8-9 feet from the rim and just lower the shoulder and plow over the defender. Did it like 3 times and was lucky only 2 got called.

 

[SBU72]

Good analysis from jordoo. . . . here are some additional observations:

1. And we wonder why JB doesn't play freshmen unless he has to. Too much tentativeness; too many errant passes; little fluidity. Yuck! The game was too fast for them and they couldn't stop rushing their shots. That said, however, there are some remedies because this team has talent and potential.

2.-VBOF

ESPN did a special with JB, Coach K, WIlliams, and Rick P. During it, JB said kids now days come able to play but what takes them a while is playing in their team concept, i.e. have to think to much.

 

[tee1222]

Wow is all I can say. I cannot remember an SU team making that many mistakes on both ends over and over again for most of the game. I know its very early in the season but I have to say that was disheartening. I'm not giving up and in general I really like the collection of players but it seems we may have a couple of flaws that cannot be fixed or masked this year.

1. Depth at center. This is a major issue especially the way Christmas seems to be a magnet for a couple bad calls a game (amazing how consistently for 4 years he gets at least 1 foul called on him a game that makes no sense). Add the 1 or 2 really bad fouls he makes and that's about it. JB didn't even consider sending Chino in and wouldn't have unless Chris picked up 4 as well. Light at the end of the tunnel is that DC2 is practicing and Chris actually looks like he could hold down the fort in the middle IF the rest of the D comes together.

2. Chris needs to be 20 pounds stronger. He simply won't be this year. Yes he can learn to keep the ball higher and go more aggressively and more quickly around the basket to pick up fouls but he doesn't look like he will be able to finish through much contact and he gets bumped off his path all game long with or without the ball. He also looses the ball in traffic and on rebounds because of a lack of strength. I think he can play in ways to help with this and get tougher but its not going to go away. He needs to eat Thanksgiving Dinner every 3rd day.

The bright side is that other than that offensive and defensive execution can and will be improved as we gain experience and practice. This team went Deer in Headlights in that first half when Cal started sticking it to us. We had no team action on offense and we were reacting late on defense without much activity. The young guys think so much they look slow and then they are predictable or the defense has caught up to them. Mike looked very fast and a lot of that is simply confidence and instinctive decision making. We also had n cohesion on offense which was once of the reasons we shot so poorly. Lots of one on one stuff and jumpers that guys didn't really have a lot of space on. These things will come for guys like Kaleb, Tyler, Buss, Chris and BJ. The talent is no where near as poor as it looked and we won't play the whole season like we are shellshocked which was a big part of the problem on defense. When we made some baskets and got energized in the second half the defense was super active for a 3-4 minute stretch and even with the mistakes it was much better.

I expect the defense is going to have to be the calling card until the offense comes together and a big thing to watch tonight is activity more than execution on both ends. This will tell us a lot. Win or lose if we come out and compete hard with energy for the whole game its a very good sign. I actually hope that the whooping we got has the effect of loosening guys like Roberson and Kaleb up. They are all ready making all the mistakes might as well let it all hang out and just play. The Kaleb Joseph I saw last night was not the kid I saw in the Carlton game. He has still has all those skills and that confidence he just needs to take a deep breath and play. He is the key to getting things rolling on offense and as bad as he was I don't think he is as far away as people think. It looked to me like he was trying to be extra careful and only make the sure handed play which caused most of his issues. He needs to play like Kaleb Joseph and not like anyone else.

I knew we would struggle at times this year but I gotta admit that was shocking. Still lets see how they bounce back tonight because no way we can fix all the strategy thing in 24 hours so what we will be seeing is the character of the guys, their fight and how they are choosing to move forward. I want energy and effort tonight.

Still think this team winds up being pretty good and there is nowhere to go but up so we will get to see the young players develop.

I'm still pumped. Angry, but pumped. I expect every single player on this team to play with fire tonight. Get up, boys. Get up.

 

[VaBeachOrFan]

Some of my suggested "remedies" (see Post 15 above) worked against Iowa. Most notably, Christmas scored 18 pts. in 33 minutes (.545 pts./min.) vs. 8 pts. in 23 minutes against Cal. (.348 pts./min.). The guys made much better use of his time before he got in foul trouble in the second half.

Cooney showed better form on his jumpers, drove the basket more, and was his usual disruptive self in the passing lanes. He still threw some passes away, however. Other guys did a better job of taking an open shot rather than driving into traffic for a closer but well-contested shot as they did against Cal.

Still a lot of sloppy ball handling, but Iowa obliged by handing the Orange 17 TOs. Cuse had a good game management test at the end and came through, but it still wasn't because one player took up the Go To mantle. McCullough just made a key interception.

And so the glass is still filling.--VBOF

 

[Jake]

Every game this year is going to be like watching your grandparents ing. It ain't gonna be fun to watch.

 

[jordoo]

Every game this year is going to be like watching your grandparents . It ain't gonna be fun to watch.

I'll disagree. I expect we will enjoy watching this team grow and that they will be a joy 20 games from now.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Agreed having the ability and being able to score does not mean he knows how to play as a focal point in the post. Great post players not only make the defense want to help they also make them fear doubling. Rak has shown in the past that he can pass so its all about learning when, how and were to go with ball as opposed to when he needs to shoot.

Remember when Blake Griffin carved us up. He never forced a shot.

 

[llandz]

I didn't realize that Iowa is ranked in the USA Today poll. I feel much better now. For this team, with this many young players, to come back after last nights showing, and on very little rest and sleep is actually pretty good.