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[QUOTE="Cowtown, post: 1018865, member: 2350"]
OMFG.

1.) I didn't say who initiates the contact is irrelevant. I said it's less important than who has position.There's a difference. And if you don't understand that, stop right here.

2.) If there was no travel call, there was no traveling on the play. Either way, a missed travel call has no bearing on whether there was position established. If the ref called a travel, then the guy with the ball was never a shooter, and subsequent contact is generally incidental.

3.) "Legal Guarding Position" in this situation applies to the defender, not to the ball handler. Which is why (as I mentioned earlier) you "referee the defense." The defender either has position or he doesn't. Period. If the defender is out of position and creates contact, he's responsible for it. If he has position and the ball handler creates contact, that's a different decision. But that's not what happened on the play in question. At the time the shooter began his "habitual shooting motion" the defender was out of position. If you don't have position before the shooting act begins, you can't establish it after.

4.) Contact does not constitute a foul, so who initiated the contact is only part of the decision. "Disadvantage" constitutes a foul. So if you don't have position (Harrison gave it up when he jumped toward the shooter) and create contact that disadvantages the player with the ball when he's in the act of shooting, it's a foul.

Now I'm out of this freaking thread. JM&J.
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