The real problem is....

[UD1954]

With all due respect to McNamara and Autry was talent evaluators we really miss Murphy and Bernie in the development of the players they recruited.....our current roster is no better today basketball wise then there first day on campus......and that's the problem ...imo

 

[NineOneSeven]

Big picture, maybe. But what about G?

 

[orangenirvana]

Christmas and Gbinije were two of the most improved players in SU basketball history.

Where do some of you come up with this stuff?

 

[MikeSU02]

With all due respect to McNamara and Autry was talent evaluators we really miss Murphy and Bernie in the development of the players they recruited...our current roster is no better today basketball wise then there first day on campus...and that's the problem ...imo

First, coaches can get better over time just like players.

Second, if JB were to have a motivation to recruit nationally and more highly coveted players, I think GMac and Red would look a lot better with the talent brought in.

 

[cuseguy]

Probably been posted, but year we went to the Final 4, 2012, our recruiting class was Ennis, Roberson, Chino, BJ and Buss.

The latter two are no longer with the program, Ennis stayed one year, Roberson has played below expectations, and Chino has hardly left the bench.

Big problem.

 

[Jack Hall]

With all due respect to McNamara and Autry was talent evaluators we really miss Murphy and Bernie in the development of the players they recruited...our current roster is no better today basketball wise then there first day on campus...and that's the problem ...imo

Do you think leaving the big east and moving to acc has made recruiting easier or harder? How bout the ncaa sanctions? Not convinced its the coaches. Those same basic coaches had a tremendous run from 2010-2013 and then got us to 25-0

 

[UD1954]

For every G and Christmas we have a Chino,Roberson,Cooney,Patterson,Johnson,Joseph as players who haven't developed. We have always been a top program who developed players and right now that's missing with the current staff....an all SU staff plays well in the media but in reality its hurting our program......we really miss Murphy and Fine working with our recruits...imo

 

[pfister1]

I don't see a talent evaluation problem or a player development problem. I see an unrealistic expectations problem amplified by the effect of unexpected roster turn over, scholarship reductions and injuries.

Here are the incoming Freshman classes over the last few seasons

2009-10 Triche, Southerland & Riley
2010-11 Melo, Fair, Waiters & Keita
2011-12 Christmas, MCW & Cooney
2012-13 Coleman & Grant
2013-14 Ennis, Roberson, Johnson, Patterson, Obokoh
2014-15 McCullough & Joseph
2015-16 Lydon, Richardson & Howard

Do you really feel like there are a lot of guys mixed in there that were misses or that failed to develop consistent with staff expectations in the time that they were here?

The first thing is that none of us have any idea what the coaches' expectations were when they extended an offer to a guy. I mean certainly the staff didn't expect the same production from Ennis as Obokoh. You have to take into account what the staff's expectations for a guy were. Development means different things for different guys. Obokoh was the fifth member of a 5 man class. Something tells me that they knew Obokoh was a project and like other big man projects he might never really develop to the point that he would contribute. We've had those guys since the beginning of time Peter Wynne, John Karpis, George Papadokas, Erik Rogers, Sean Williams, Dave Siock, JB Reafsnyder, Elvir Ovcina, Billy Celuk, Ethan Cole, Greg Davis, Matt Gorman, Devin Brennan-McBride. Some end up making a contribution, others not.

Keep in mind that we have (well had) 13 scholarships to give out and JB never really plays more than 8 maybe 9 guys, so several scholarships are going to go to guys that for one reason or another (redshirt, development, gift to a walk-on) have to be happy with no realistic chance to play their freshman and possibly sophomore years. If you suddenly need them to be ready, they aren't going to be. On the other hand if they are ready and you can't find playing time for them they won't be around when you have playing time to give them.

I assume the staff gave BJ a scholarship knowing he wasn't likely to come in and be a big contributor early in his career. After all he was exceptionally young and on top of that he was not physically developed. Would he have been a contributor this year and next had he stayed in the program....I personally believe he would have had a DNic type developmental arc. Unfortunately, whether it was sanctions and scholarship reductions or him not believing he was getting a fair shake from the staff, he chose to move on and we won't find out what he might have developed into here.

If I were to guess, I would think the only guys on the list that didn't/aren't really meeting the staffs expectations would be Coleman (due to significant injuries), Roberson (who may still) and Joseph. Of all those guys Joseph is really the only guy that looks like a true swing and miss to me. I think the staff felt he could come in and be a "Syracuse" starting point guard by his sophomore year and instead it looks like they have completely written him off. I would be willing to bet that everyone else that has come in has performed within a degree to the expectations that the staff had for them up to the point they are at in their career or that they left the program.

Losing players early and losing scholarships doesn't make players develop more quickly, it just heightens the need for those players to do things you may have known all along that they weren't really capable of doing. Recruiting and filling out a roster isn't fantasy football, it can't necessarily be done the minute a spot opens or a need becomes apparent. It usually takes time to build relationships with kids to get them to come here. They types of talent that you can get to drop other plans on a moments notice and come probably aren't the types of guys that we would be satisfied plugging into major roles.

 

[HoustonCuse]

With all due respect to McNamara and Autry was talent evaluators we really miss Murphy and Bernie in the development of the players they recruited...our current roster is no better today basketball wise then there first day on campus...and that's the problem ...imo

This is demonstrably false. I get you are frustrated, but making up stuff is not going to help.

 

[HakAttack]

I don't see a talent evaluation problem or a player development problem. I see an unrealistic expectations problem amplified by the effect of unexpected roster turn over, scholarship reductions and injuries.

Here are the incoming Freshman classes over the last few seasons

2009-10 Triche, Southerland & Riley
2010-11 Melo, Fair, Waiters & Keita
2011-12 Christmas, MCW & Cooney
2012-13 Coleman & Grant
2013-14 Ennis, Roberson, Johnson, Patterson, Obokoh
2014-15 McCullough & Joseph
2015-16 Lydon, Richardson & Howard

Do you really feel like there are a lot of guys mixed in there that were misses or that failed to develop consistent with staff expectations in the time that they were here?

The first thing is that none of us have any idea what the coaches' expectations were when they extended an offer to a guy. I mean certainly the staff didn't expect the same production from Ennis as Obokoh. You have to take into account what the staff's expectations for a guy were. Development means different things for different guys. Obokoh was the fifth member of a 5 man class. Something tells me that they knew Obokoh was a project and like other big man projects he might never really develop to the point that he would contribute. We've had those guys since the beginning of time Peter Wynne, John Karpis, George Papadokas, Erik Rogers, Sean Williams, Dave Siock, JB Reafsnyder, Elvir Ovcina, Billy Celuk, Ethan Cole, Greg Davis, Matt Gorman, Devin Brennan-McBride. Some end up making a contribution, others not.

Keep in mind that we have (well had) 13 scholarships to give out and JB never really plays more than 8 maybe 9 guys, so several scholarships are going to go to guys that for one reason or another (redshirt, development, gift to a walk-on) have to happy with no realistic chance to play their freshman and possibly sophomore years.

I assume the staff gave BJ a scholarship knowing he wasn't likely to come in and be a big contributor early in his career. After all he was exceptionally young and on top of that he was not physically developed. Would he have been a contributor this year and next had he stayed in the program...I personally believe he would have had DNic type developmental arc. Unfortunately, where it was sanctions and scholarship reductions or him not believing he was getting a fair shake from the staff we won't find out what he might have developed into here.

If I were to guess, I would think the only guys on the list that didn't/aren't really meeting the staffs expectations would be Coleman (due to significant injuries), Roberson (who may still) and Joseph. Of all those guys Joseph is really the only guy that looks like a true swing and miss to me. I think the staff felt he could come in and be a "Syracuse" starting point guard by his sophomore year and instead it looks like they have completely written him off. I would be willing to bet that everyone else that has come in has performed with a degree to the expectations that the staff had for them up to the point they are at in their career or that they left the program.

Losing players early and losing scholarships doesn't make players develop more quickly, it just heightens the need for those players to do things you may have known all along that they weren't really capable of doing. Recruiting and filling out a roster isn't fantasy football, it can't necessarily be done the minute a spot opens or a need becomes apparent. It usually takes time to build relationships with kids to get them to come here. They types of talent that you can get to drop other plans on a moments notice and come probably aren't the types of guys that we would be satisfied plugging into major roles.

Fantastic, rational, well-informed post.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I don't see a talent evaluation problem or a player development problem. I see an unrealistic expectations problem amplified by the effect of unexpected roster turn over, scholarship reductions and injuries.

Here are the incoming Freshman classes over the last few seasons

2009-10 Triche, Southerland & Riley
2010-11 Melo, Fair, Waiters & Keita
2011-12 Christmas, MCW & Cooney
2012-13 Coleman & Grant
2013-14 Ennis, Roberson, Johnson, Patterson, Obokoh
2014-15 McCullough & Joseph
2015-16 Lydon, Richardson & Howard

It's all recency bias, which is understandable. I don't necessarily think it's been a development problem, but more the talent evaluation or more likely, just some swings and misses since 2013. I suppose those misses have been magnified by how underwhelming and beatable the program has been for 2 years now, as well as having to make due with a few less scholarships. Usually when we have a recruiting miss, there's maybe 1 per season, not 4-5 in 2 years...

Above the line, every player, outside of Riley, made or is making heavy contributions to the program. There are 3 first round picks, 2 second round picks, 2 other 1500 points scorers, Southerland (who has sniffed the NBA), a fine defensive player in Keita and Coleman/Cooney still in the program.

Below the line, we have 4 kids who contributed next to nothing, another who played about a dozen games and Ennis, who was great in his 1 year here. 2015's class looks strong so hopefully we're pointed back in the right direction. We can't whiff on these next few recruiting classes if we're to re-establish ourselves among the top crust of the ACC.

But yeah, it's been frustrating and tough to overcome. Looking back on it, without knowing more details, I wonder if JB took a big class in 2013 because the space was there. Maybe it would have been better to leave some ships open that year and go all in the next??