There was an ocean of room all game on the baseline

[STEVEHOLT]

Louisville had their zone so dang high up they weren't even guarding the back ten feet of the court. We have seen teams crush us with a baseline cutter when we come up to high, yet we couldnt figure this out all game? Rashamel Jones made an entire career out of it.

You have to punish that team for
1. pressing (when we broke the press we basically missed layups, turned it over, or waited for them to get back on D)

2. Not guarding the baseline...

we did neither.

 

[Jasoncuse]

It didn't seem like we could cleanly make any passes. With a kid that can beat a zone off the dribble, like L'ville had, it's harder for this team to get in the lane like that.

Who would you have put on the baseline? Roberson, I guess, is the only option. He struggles finishing against big bodies. though. Coleman is too slow and doesn't have the hands to consistently catch and make plays in that role. Lydon is too weak. This roster has holes that make things like excelling on the baseline tough.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

It didn't seem like we could cleanly make any passes. With a kid that can beat a zone off the dribble, like L'ville had, it's harder for this team to get in the lane like that.

Who would you have put on the baseline? Roberson, I guess, is the only option. He struggles finishing against big bodies. though. Coleman is too slow and doesn't have the hands to consistently catch and make plays in that role. Lydon is too weak. This roster has holes that make things like excelling on the baseline tough.

Lydon would have been a prime candidate, although today he couldnt walk without falling.

 

[CraigForth]

Lydon would have been a prime candidate, although today he couldnt walk without falling.

Had to record and watch this game late, sorry if people have already moved on or threads have been burned to the ground already, but Lydon was so bad on defense and offense I'm actually shocked. His reaction time was so slow tonight, I've never seen anything like it. Rebounds flying past his head, passes thrown through lanes that had been closed for half a minute. Wow. Terrible. He wasn't the only one that played poorly, but, he was noticeably bad. On to the next one, oh well, not a bad loss on the resume anyway

 

[billsin01]

Lydon would have been a prime candidate, although today he couldnt walk without falling.

Perhaps it is a personnel issue but I tend to think JB's offenses often get flustered when teams force us to execute sets. That's probably harsh for a guy who's won as many games as JB but teams that get up under our length and force us to run sets all day generally give us massive fits. Calhoun's UConn teams (which were admittedly really talented), Pitinio's Louisville teams, Pitt under Dixon/Howland, Buzz had groups that did this. It seems like we do OK with a guy like Flynn or Waiters who can break it down and make things happen, but if we have to rely on sets we have serious problems.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Perhaps it is a personnel issue but I tend to think JB's offenses often get flustered when teams force us to execute sets. That's probably harsh for a guy who's won as many games at JB but teams that get up under our length and force us to run sets all day generally give us massive fits. Calhoun's UConn teams (which were admittedly really talented), Pitinio's Louisville teams, Pitt under Dixon/Howland, Buzz had groups that did this. It seems like we do OK with a guy like Flynn or Waiters who can break it down and make things happen, but if we have to rely on sets we have serious problems.

Could be very true and also the offense is very pedestrian schematically. They don't run a lot of creative and intricate stuff to beat a GOOD defense. It's basically drive and kick/pick 'n roll. We generally don't reverse the ball enough also like LaPhonso was saying. If we aren't or can't drive then it almost looks like they don't what else to do besides jack up shots one or zero passes.

 

[cuseguy]

We've never run a sophisticated offense.

 

[bballbeadle]

Had to record and watch this game late, sorry if people have already moved on or threads have been burned to the ground already, but Lydon was so bad on defense and offense I'm actually shocked. His reaction time was so slow tonight, I've never seen anything like it. Rebounds flying past his head, passes thrown through lanes that had been closed for half a minute. Wow. Terrible. He wasn't the only one that played poorly, but, he was noticeably bad. On to the next one, oh well, not a bad loss on the resume anyway

I hate to resort to a cliche, but he seemed dazed and confused. I think at the very least he needs to shave. Tonight!

 

[billsin01]

Could be very true and also the offense is very pedestrian schematically. They don't run a lot of creative and intricate stuff to beat a GOOD defense. It's basically drive and kick/pick 'n roll. We generally don't reverse the ball enough also like LaPhonso was saying. If we aren't or can't drive then it almost looks like they don't what else to do besides jack up shots one or zero passes.

Yeah, this will sound ridiculous but SU's offenses look good when they have a bunch of skilled, talented offensive players. Those guys take advantage of the freedom, make plays and we're tough to deal with b/c there's not a specific scheme to prepare for. When we don't have quite that elite skill or talent level and/or we're young, good teams exploit it. You could argue convincingly, of course, that any program is better when it has better talent, but it seems like our average or worse offensive teams have major issues vs. physical, in-your-face defensive teams. We seem to still beat other teams. Even Duke, which plays aggressively but isn't overly physical, doesn't seem to give us the problems UVA or Pitt or L'ville do.

Unfortunately, I am not terribly bullish on the Pitt game for obvious reasons.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

People say that Lydon needs to hit the weight room to be able to play with the bigs down low...however it isnt just bigs that he bounces to ground off of. He needs to get much stronger just to be able to play vs upper half of the league athletes. theres a reason why he looks unbelievably good one day and then looks like this on others..its all strength

 

[SoBeCuse]

We've never run a sophisticated offense.

I know. You need superior athletes/skillsets to run what SU does on offense to consistently beat or compete with very good defensive teams.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Yeah, this will sound ridiculous but SU's offenses look good when they have a bunch of skilled, talented offensive players. Those guys take advantage of the freedom, make plays and we're tough to deal with b/c there's not a specific scheme to prepare for. When we don't have quite that elite skill or talent level and/or we're young, good teams exploit it. You could argue convincingly, of course, that any program is better when it has better talent, but it seems like our average or worse offensive teams have major issues vs. physical, in-your-face defensive teams. We seem to still beat other teams. Even Duke, which plays aggressively but isn't overly physical, doesn't seem to give us the problems UVA or Pitt or L'ville do.

Unfortunately, I am not terribly bullish on the Pitt game for obvious reasons.

Good post.

 

[billsin01]

Good post.

I felt like I was rambling and I'm pretty sure you said it much more succinctly. In my memory I can only think of a few times we were pretty effective against those defenses -- one when Flynn was breaking them down individually as a soph, '09-'10 when they had a bunch of scorers on the floor and Arinze/Rick Jackson did a nice job executing the high-low and obviously '03 when Melo was tough for anyone to stop.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I felt like I was rambling and I'm pretty sure you said it much more succinctly. In my memory I can only think of a few times we were pretty effective against those defenses -- one when Flynn was breaking them down individually as a soph, '09-'10 when they had a bunch of scorers on the floor and Arinze/Rick Jackson did a nice job executing the high-low and obviously '03 when Melo was tough for anyone to stop.

Good observation with the high-low and those two. That play will work on almost everybody with two skilled guys like them except when you run into a Blake Griffin and co. buzzsaw.

A blow-by PG or other guard is HUGE. A Flynn like you say. Just makes everything easier and more simplistic. Battle is going to help. Hopefully landing Quade Green will too. Also, when Cooney doesn't drive (which is most of the time and I'm not a Cooney basher) it just bogs things down even more. Your 2G needs to be able to slash and drive also.

 

[billsin01]

Good observation with the high-low and those two. That play will work on almost everybody with two skilled guys like them except when you run into a Blake Griffin and co. buzzsaw.

A blow-by PG or other guard is HUGE. A Flynn like you say. Just makes everything easier and more simplistic. Battle is going to help. Hopefully landing Quade Green will too. Also, when Cooney doesn't drive (which is most of the time and I'm not a Cooney basher) it just bogs things down even more. Your 2G needs to be able to slash and drive also.

Yup. Cooney playing beside a Flynn is potentially really dangerous. Cooney playing beside a guy who's not blowing by his man regularly doesn't get the looks to be anywhere near as dangerous.

The thing that has puzzled me the past few seasons is why we've been so deliberate offensively. I always felt like the folks who hated Scoop (who was maddening at times, admittedly) never quite appreciated how often he looked to push it and had his head up. We've been average to below-average the past few years offensively (despite generally being a very good team) but for some reason going back to MCW and Ennis we've played extremely slooooowwww. Now obviously you could look at a final four with MCW and say I'm an idiot and i really have no defense against that, but it just seems like generally if you play tough defense and have a bit of depth (obviously that could be the issue this year), taking an opportunity for break (fast or slow/unsettled situation) might just be your best chance at a bucket.

 

[OttoMets]

Good observation with the high-low and those two. That play will work on almost everybody with two skilled guys like them except when you run into a Blake Griffin and co. buzzsaw.

A blow-by PG or other guard is HUGE. A Flynn like you say. Just makes everything easier and more simplistic. Battle is going to help. Hopefully landing Quade Green will too. Also, when Cooney doesn't drive (which is most of the time and I'm not a Cooney basher) it just bogs things down even more. Your 2G needs to be able to slash and drive also.

Yeah, he caught a pass on the wing in an unsettled situation in the first half; some guards could have gotten to the rim from there. One half-hearted ball fake didn't move a defender, the ball got kicked back to the top, and we tried to run a half-court set.

We'll be better when our off-guard has the full complement of skills.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Yup. Cooney playing beside a Flynn is potentially really dangerous. Cooney playing beside a guy who's not blowing by his man regularly doesn't get the looks to be anywhere near as dangerous.

The thing that has puzzled me the past few seasons is why we've been so deliberate offensively. I always felt like the folks who hated Scoop (who was maddening at times, admittedly) never quite appreciated how often he looked to push it and had his head up. We've been average to below-average the past few years offensively (despite generally being a very good team) but for some reason going back to MCW and Ennis we've played extremely slooooowwww. Now obviously you could look at a final four with MCW and say I'm an idiot and i really have no defense against that, but it just seems like generally if you play tough defense and have a bit of depth (obviously that could be the issue this year), taking an opportunity for break (fast or slow/unsettled situation) might just be your best chance at a bucket.

Right re: Cooney. Off of a dynamic PG penetrator/playmaker he would be perfectly cast. He has tunnel vision when he does drive and doesn't pass and more/often than not throws up a wild layup attempt. He just is forced to do too much, I guess. We can get by with guys playing out of position or with limited skillsets against the ACC dregs and average clubs but not against good defensive teams with equal or better athletes. Louisville is also VERY well coached. Say what you want about Don Pitino but he is a master coach. His gameplan on D was good. He wasn't concerned with baseline openings if you can't penetrate and/or make those plays, imo.

The pace thing I don't know. We had only one shooter and one driver on the Ennis team. Even Ennis was shut down by good defensive teams because he wasn't an elite athlete/playmaker. The offense got shut down because nobody else could really drive. The lack of transition has been a big problem the past few years. Obviously teams probably want to take that away (even when we don't run much lately) and make us earn it in the halfcourt.

 

[Cheriehoop]

As an aside, we used to make a living off back screens (even double screens) for dunks, lobs to the basket. I don't know if the issue is a lack of athletes to get the pass (Roberson has the athleticism but only shows glimpses of his capabilities) or the lack of a single passer to deliver it.Conversely I watch even lesser teams victimize us. Frustrating.

 

[rrlbees]

Yeah, he caught a pass on the wing in an unsettled situation in the first half; some guards could have gotten to the rim from there. One half-hearted ball fake didn't move a defender, the ball got kicked back to the top, and we tried to run a half-court set. We'll be better when our off-guard has the full complement of skills.

We'll be better off when we have a center, PG and PF with the full complement of skills.

 

[billsin01]

Right re: Cooney. Off of a dynamic PG penetrator/playmaker he would be perfectly cast. He has tunnel vision when he does drive and doesn't pass and more/often than not throws up a wild layup attempt. He just is forced to do too much, I guess. We can get by with guys playing out of position or with limited skillsets against the ACC dregs and average clubs but not against good defensive teams with equal or better athletes. Louisville is also VERY well coached. Say what you want about Don Pitino but he is a master coach. His gameplan on D was good. He wasn't concerned with baseline openings if you can't penetrate and/or make those plays, imo.

The pace thing I don't know. We had only one shooter and one driver on the Ennis team. Even Ennis was shut down by good defensive teams because he wasn't an elite athlete/playmaker. The offense got shut down because nobody else could really drive. The lack of transition has been a big problem the past few years. Obviously teams probably want to take that away (even when we don't run much lately) and make us earn it in the halfcourt.

If the roster is where you hope it is Cooney is a really nice weapon off the bench. That's not to say he's a bad player or hasn't been a pretty solid starter for us, but simply that he requires a lot of legs in his jump shot and the constant 35 mpg wears on him. He can put the ball on the deck at times but it's not a strong suit and he plays solid but unremarkable defense. I like him, but I'm not sure his starting for three years is a great reflection on our recruiting.

Fair point on pace and they haven't had legit depth in a while. I guess I just feel like if you're a team that struggles offensively, even a secondary break/unsettled situation is probably better than a half-court possession. That's probably simplistic though.

 

[OrangeDW]

Louisville had their zone so dang high up they weren't even guarding the back ten feet of the court. We have seen teams crush us with a baseline cutter when we come up to high, yet we couldnt figure this out all game? Rashamel Jones made an entire career out of it.

You have to punish that team for
1. pressing (when we broke the press we basically missed layups, turned it over, or waited for them to get back on D)

2. Not guarding the baseline...

we did neither.

Holy crap at the Rashamel Jones reference. That's a name I haven't heard in 15 years and a guy I completely forgot about.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Holy crap at the Rashamel Jones reference. That's a name I haven't heard in 15 years and a guy I completely forgot about.

I really always liked him and Kevin Freeman. Super solid college players.

 

[NorSyr66]

If the roster is where you hope it is Cooney is a really nice weapon off the bench. That's not to say he's a bad player or hasn't been a pretty solid starter for us, but simply that he requires a lot of legs in his jump shot and the constant 35 mpg wears on him. He can put the ball on the deck at times but it's not a strong suit and he plays solid but unremarkable defense. I like him, but I'm not sure his starting for three years is a great reflection on our recruiting.

Fair point on pace and they haven't had legit depth in a while. I guess I just feel like if you're a team that struggles offensively, even a secondary break/unsettled situation is probably better than a half-court possession. That's probably simplistic though.

At first I was going to praise Cooney and say without him we would not have hit 50 points tonight but as I was preparing to reply, I recalled even Cooney missed 3 wide open 3's. This roster has just too many holes to cover up all the time. Just be glad we are 18 - 9!!

Lets get Pitt on Saturday and put this one far behind us.

 

[rrlbees]

At first I was going to praise Cooney and say without him we would not have hit 50 points tonight but as I was preparing to reply, I recalled even Cooney missed 3 wide open 3's. This roster has just too many holes to cover up all the time. Just be glad we are 18 - 9!! Lets get Pitt on Saturday and put this one far behind us.

I'll take 5-10 all day long from anyone from 3. 8-10 would have been sick.

 

[orangefan13]

This is one of those games where I think to myself we only practiced offense and breaking their pressure with crisp passing and not turning it over the last few days. I felt we did very good at that.

Our guards were letting them drive the paint to easy, not staying with them when they did, and as a result our center was forced into 2 on 1's most of the second half.

Funny the way these things work, and how one small element can make a 1 possession game a 6 very quickly.
last game imo Gbinije starting pushing up defensively 2nd half BC didn't have awnser as clifford was forced to play up and we went on a big run to win.

I didn't feel we needed to force transition against the press, as ville was pretty athletic imo and our ball movment was fine. I actually thought keeping the transition down to off their turnovers bare minimum would have been fine. None of that matters though, this game was lost on the defensive side of the ball, and there is no doubt about it.