What’s not being talked about why the zone doesn’t work

[Lukeyloo]

Watching Cuse stink up the VT court so I got thinking about the defenses troubles.. and to distract myself.

Everyone likes to talk about the zone being a bad defense for modern day basketball because of the emphasis on shooting, but I’d argue it’s because there’s rarely continuity between seasons. The zone really requires the players to work in unison and that takes time for players to figure out where they should be/what they should be doing in a given situation. This is all new to new players to SU’s program because everyone else plays M2M.

With college basketball how it is now, SU doesn’t seem capable of maintaining a steady roster of players that have been in the system for years that understand how to properly play the zone. I don’t think they’ll ever get to that point again with all the kids transferring and good players leaving early. Boeheim is just so entrenched in his system that he’s not going to change now even though it’s not working for modern college basketball. The results won’t get any better until change occurs.

 

[DPCuse]

What I just don’t understand is, why in the world do you not even try a few possessions of man to man when you are getting torched for 50 in the first half? I mean can it really be any less effective than the zone we were rolling out tonight? It’s like wasting an 0-2 pitch in baseball. Just give them something different to think about.

 

[hoopsupstate]

The best way to keep the ball out of the high post is having two big guards. It’s been a long time since we had two big guards out front.

 

[djcon57]

The best way to keep the ball out of the high post is having two big guards. It’s been a long time since we had two big guards out front.

Yep. The last time it was effective vs good teams the two guards were Buddy and some other guy with Jesse, Quincy and Brass. All were long enough to affect shots. Quincy and Bras could rebound weak side.

 

[FrancoPizza]

You could put the 2010 team out there and they’d still give up 85 points. The difference is we might score 86. Tall guards help but it’s not the solution. The game has changed too much.

The zone is a relic and belongs in a museum.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

You could put the 2010 team out there and they’d still give up 85 points. The difference is we might score 86. Tall guards help but it’s not the solution. The game has changed too much.

The zone is a relic and belongs in a museum.

Pass to the FT line.
pass recipient gets in triple threat position
Wing defender slumps down to help
Strong side guard drops to area vacated by wing
Area vacated by guard now open wider than the ocean

That’s all it is. That simple to beat. It’s child’s play

 

[FrancoPizza]

Pass to the FT line.
pass recipient gets in triple threat position
Wing defender slumps down to help
Strong side guard drops to area vacated by wing
Area vacated by guard now open wider than the ocean

That’s all it is. That simple to beat. It’s child’s play

Crazy thing is…

Why on earth do they even help the post? For the love of gosh, let the guy on the post shoot and save the players legs. It’s like a friggin lab experiment where the rat keeps choosing to get electrocuted by opening door #1. Every. single. time. That’s completely on JB.

 

[CuseCPT]

Good point, OP. Going further along this road, isn't the time it took "to learn and understand the zone" a reason JB cited in the past not really taking a lot of transfers back in the days before the portal/early days of one and done?

E: Which if true is even more a reason not just play zone in the portal era and guys leaving early era.

 

[djcon57]

Pass to the FT line.
pass recipient gets in triple threat position
Wing defender slumps down to help
Strong side guard drops to area vacated by wing
Area vacated by guard now open wider than the ocean

That’s all it is. That simple to beat. It’s child’s play

also...all 5 defenders sprint at full speed to chase down open 3s...which defeats the purpose we used to use the zone for which is to save some energy for offense

 

[swish7]

The zone really requires the players to work in unison and that takes time for players to figure out where they should be/what they should be doing in a given situation. This is all new to new players to SU’s program because everyone else plays M2M.

With college basketball how it is now, SU doesn’t seem capable of maintaining a steady roster of players that have been in the system for years that understand how to properly play the zone. I don’t think they’ll ever get to that point again with all the kids transferring and good players leaving early.

Defense is about causing the offense to take difficult shots. We do not challenge shots.
It requires effort. We are not working hard enough on D, for 40 minutes.
Someone in an area of a zone should be defended as if it were a man to man. We lose our men in the zone, by overloading areas, and are not anticipating passes to open men in the corner, and then are slow to get to them. We practically concede wide open shots.

Super frustrated tonight that we did not press in the 1st half. It has worked in other games and the zone was simply not working tonight, and hell, its good as a method to change the flow of the game. I just don't get why in this game of all games, we watched that lead swell to 20ish with no changeup on D.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Watching Cuse stink up the VT court so I got thinking about the defenses troubles.. and to distract myself.

Everyone likes to talk about the zone being a bad defense for modern day basketball because of the emphasis on shooting, but I’d argue it’s because there’s rarely continuity between seasons. The zone really requires the players to work in unison and that takes time for players to figure out where they should be/what they should be doing in a given situation. This is all new to new players to SU’s program because everyone else plays M2M.

With college basketball how it is now, SU doesn’t seem capable of maintaining a steady roster of players that have been in the system for years that understand how to properly play the zone. I don’t think they’ll ever get to that point again with all the kids transferring and good players leaving early. Boeheim is just so entrenched in his system that he’s not going to change now even though it’s not good modern college basketball. The results won’t get any better until change occurs.

Welcome to the party

 

[FrancoPizza]

Defense is about causing the offense to take difficult shots. We do not challenge shots.
It requires effort.

it’s not effort, the kids try. When it’s painfully clear the other team has the passing skills to beat it, mentally we’re beaten.

All the effort in the world won’t enable us to guard 2 players at once on every possession.

 

[SmilinBob]

Here's the difference in how the zone works. You either chase the ball or anticipate the passing lanes ahead of time and be where you have to be, this team chases the ball. They work hard but chasing the ball just gets you there a step too late and tires the D thus open shots are more often made.

Add to that, chasing puts you in a worse rebounding position. The youth of this team and some being a step too slow makes it an average to below defense.

 

[newmexicuse]

The bottom line is the ball moves faster than players can move.

A team that is smart and unselfish will carve up the Zone in the modern game because too many players can now hit the open trey.

When teams only had one or two guys that could make treys the Zone worked.

EVERY team now has a minimum of three trey point shooters on the floor simultaneously.

Jimmy has to go and take his freakn Zone with him.

The Jurassic Era is over.

 

[swish7]

Here's the difference in how the zone works. You either chase the ball or anticipate the passing lanes ahead of time and be where you have to be, this team chases the ball. They work hard but chasing the ball just gets you there a step too late and tires the D thus open shots are more often made.

Add to that, chasing puts you in a worse rebounding position. The youth of this team and some being a step too slow makes it an average to below defense.

Exactly right. And, frankly, we don't chase after the ball with much effort.

Anticipating passes requires mental engagement as well as consistent effort. Just didn't bring it last night.

 

[MikeSU02]

The bottom line is the ball moves faster than players can move.

A team that is smart and unselfish will carve up the Zone in the modern game because too many players can now hit the open trey.

When teams only had one or two guys that could make treys the Zone worked.

EVERY team now has a minimum of three trey point shooters on the floor simultaneously.

Jimmy has to go and take his freakn Zone with him.

The Jurassic Era is over.

Also, the three point line was extended a few years ago and shooters are camped out farther back than they used to be (I believe this is true, I don’t have empirical evidence off hand)

Meaning that the total square footage our defenders have to cover is so much more than it used to be.

That also means there are wider gaps for passing lanes, driving lanes, etc.

Not saying that the zone can’t work. But it’s a different beast now as it pertains to the geometry on the floor.

To be clear, this same stuff still pertains to man, but it’s not the same consequences (and I’m saying that neutrally).

 

[tbonezone]

every coach we face knows exactly what's coming next possession.

“mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy”​

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War
tags: business, strategy, war
Read more quotes from Sun Tzu

switch it up chrissakes for a few possessions

 

[CuseTG2003]

Watching Cuse stink up the VT court so I got thinking about the defenses troubles.. and to distract myself.

Everyone likes to talk about the zone being a bad defense for modern day basketball because of the emphasis on shooting, but I’d argue it’s because there’s rarely continuity between seasons. The zone really requires the players to work in unison and that takes time for players to figure out where they should be/what they should be doing in a given situation. This is all new to new players to SU’s program because everyone else plays M2M.

With college basketball how it is now, SU doesn’t seem capable of maintaining a steady roster of players that have been in the system for years that understand how to properly play the zone. I don’t think they’ll ever get to that point again with all the kids transferring and good players leaving early. Boeheim is just so entrenched in his system that he’s not going to change now even though it’s not working for modern college basketball. The results won’t get any better until change occurs.

GREAT post. Dumb to play a D that takes multiple seasons to master w/ so much roster turnover. Remember how much Gillon and White struggled on D in their one year here?

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

I don’t really believe the D is really that hard to master. It just doesn't work. The game has changed, most teams put out four players who are comfortable playing on the perimeter. Bigs are either glorified 4s or rim runners. Not sure if you can play a standard 2-3 anymore. Better matchup principles might help.
The thing I don’t get about yesterday is why not let Mutts take the foul line jumper. Flying at him doesn’t accomplish anything.
The guards do nothing to stop the high post passing. They’re not pressuring the ball, not denying the passing lanes and they aren’t guarding high post.
Jesse flies up to cover the high post leaving the wing to try and stop and overloaded side. Wings are constantly stuck in a 2 on 1. They get yanked for being unable to achieve the impossible and never seem to settle in.
Last thing Justin Taylor is terrible on defense as the three. Too slow to cover on the outside and too small to help underneath. He needs to develop ball handling and become a real 2 or we have to play man. Haha

 

[Cuse'91]

JB has always kinda had a talent advantage over most of the teams we play annually; I think it's really a case of not having that bully edge that is showing itself over this last decade.

 

[DoctorBombay]

You could put the 2010 team out there and they’d still give up 85 points. The difference is we might score 86. Tall guards help but it’s not the solution. The game has changed too much.

The zone is a relic and belongs in a museum.,

Heeeey, wait a minute...

 

[newmexicuse]

I don’t really believe the D is really that hard to master. It just doesn't work. The game has changed, most teams put out four players who are comfortable playing on the perimeter. Bigs are either glorified 4s or rim runners. Not sure if you can play a standard 2-3 anymore. Better matchup principles might help.
The thing I don’t get about yesterday is why not let Mutts take the foul line jumper. Flying at him doesn’t accomplish anything.
The guards do nothing to stop the high post passing. They’re not pressuring the ball, not denying the passing lanes and they aren’t guarding high post.
Jesse flies up to cover the high post leaving the wing to try and stop and overloaded side. Wings are constantly stuck in a 2 on 1. They get yanked for being unable to achieve the impossible and never seem to settle in.
Last thing Justin Taylor is terrible on defense as the three. Too slow to cover on the outside and too small to help underneath. He needs to develop ball handling and become a real 2 or we have to play man. Haha

Gave u a like and thought u had many good points.

my only disagreement is that I do not see where Taylor is any worse on D or with rebounding as compared to any of our other forwards not named Brown.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Pass to the FT line.
pass recipient gets in triple threat position
Wing defender slumps down to help
Strong side guard drops to area vacated by wing
Area vacated by guard now open wider than the ocean

That’s all it is. That simple to beat. It’s child’s play

That's why the switch to the 1-3-1 was so effective. If you take away the guy at the foul line, then the opponent is forced to try to find guys in the corners, or down low 1-on-1 versus your center. Those are the remaining open spots against that defense. But to pass to either location, you have a guy at the top of the zone hopefully hawking the PG, and you have a line of 3 guys from wing to foul line to wing to interrupt the passing lanes. I'd rather see us switch sooner to a 1-3-1 when people are beating the 2-3 zone with the foul line entry pass, rather than waiting until we're down 10 points and then going to our raggedy press.

 

[007]

GREAT post. Dumb to play a D that takes multiple seasons to master w/ so much roster turnover. Remember how much Gillon and White struggled on D in their one year here?

It's a myth to think that JB's zone is so complex that it takes "multiple seasons to master" or that it is more time consuming to coach. To be clear, I'm not saying that it doesn't take time to learn the rotations and for those rotations to become "instinctual." It does. But...

Just about any coach at any level would tell you that teaching a M2M team concept defense is more complex and time consuming than coaching a zone, even JB's version. I'm not talking about the basic M2M we all played at the Y. Unless you have done it, what you think you see on the court is very different from what the players need to know and execute, and how much time it takes to coach and practice all the players need to know to be really good at it. Things like stance and footwork fundamentals, strong and weak side positioning, how and when to provide help and what all the rotations will look like out of that help - which will vary depending on who is providing help (everyone is responsible) and where on the court it happens, a system for handling cutters, what to do with screens (strong side, weak side, on ball, down screens, back screens, staggered), pick and roll rotations, how to position on post players, how to defend shooters, close outs, when to double, on ball pressure and denial concepts (there are entire systems built around just this one thing - see Pitino), boxing out, defending out of bounds plays (sideline vs baseline), transition defense, and on and on.

 

[007]

That's why the switch to the 1-3-1 was so effective. If you take away the guy at the foul line, then the opponent is forced to try to find guys in the corners, or down low 1-on-1 versus your center. Those are the remaining open spots against that defense. But to pass to either location, you have a guy at the top of the zone hopefully hawking the PG, and you have a line of 3 guys from wing to foul line to wing to interrupt the passing lanes. I'd rather see us switch sooner to a 1-3-1 when people are beating the 2-3 zone with the foul line entry pass, rather than waiting until we're down 10 points and then going to our raggedy press.

Again, JB has never played the 1-3-1. He has played the guards in tandem alignment to try to make the high post entry more difficult. And that alignment looks like a 1-3-1 initially. But all the rotations after the entry pass are the same as JB's "regular" 2-3. The rotations in a traditional 1-3-1 are VERY different. And there is a reason why you almost never see a 1-3-1 at this level. It's too easy to carve up.