SWC75
Bored Historian
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It’s now August 1st and time to begin thinking about the football season again. The football season to me isn’t simply about SU. It’s about the whole panorama of the sport, including its colorful past. One subject that has always interested me is the national championship controversies. They are fun to research and describe and can get a good debate going, not only about the teams involved but about what criteria should be used. In any case, this will serve as a tour through the history of the game, (I won’t call it a “history lesson” as I’m not going to try to teach you anything). I know some people don’t care about the past but I think you’ll find that each season is as interesting as any other and as much fun to talk about.
I decided to look at the years since the first AP poll in 1936. Until the AP, (writer’s) did it in 1968, there were no ‘after the bowls’ poll with the exception of an “unofficial” one in 1948 and a one-off effort in 1965. The Coach’s Poll began in 1950 and they didn’t do one after the bowls until 1974. Also the coaches have refused to vote for a team on probation so the issue has come up, (especially in 1967 and 1974), as to whether a team on probation should be considered even if they have the best record.
In most of these cases the obvious solutions to have co-champions but I felt it would be more interesting if we were forced to pick one school. I’ll provide all the information I can about each team and look at then in multiple ways. This is an “open book test” with a poll instead of a test – you can do whatever research you like and you’ll find out many things about college football history along the way. Here are some of my favorite study aids:
The NCAA Football Records Book:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2017/FBS.pdf
Go to “National poll Rankings” on page 107, (you can click on it). This will list the selectors the NCAA recognizes and which teams were selected national champions by which selectors each year. On page 116 it tells you how #1 ranked teams did in bowl games. On page 121 it gives you the weekly leaders in the AP (writer’s) poll. Page 132 has the results of #1 vs. #2 games and page 134 has games were a #1 ranked team was defeated. Page 135 has the preseason #1 ranked teams. Page 136 has a verbal description of changes in the AP rankings over the course of the season. Page 140 has the final AP polls for each season. Page 147 has the final coach’s polls. Page 150 has the USA Today polls, which became the coach’s poll after UPI withdrew from the ranking business. Page 153 has the USA Today polls on a weekly basis. Page 163 has the BCS rankings. Page 172 lists all the teams with perfect records. Page 174 lists all the teams that lost perfect records in their last game. Page 175 lists streaks- including winning streaks and undefeated streaks.
James Howell’s historical scores:
Historical Scores - Alphabetically by Team
No, he doesn’t list his girlfriends. He lists all the scores for all the major college teams for years when they were considered, (by him, I presume) to be major college teams. The schools are listed alphabetically with the years they are major colleges. You click on that link and you will get their historical scores. You scroll down to the year you want to look at and it will list the opponent and the score, as well as if they were home (vs.) or away (@). If the opponent is a major college, it will give you the opponent’s record and link you to that opponent’s scores for that year. If they are a major college team, they are listed as “non 1-A”. This is a great source for looking beyond the numerical record and accessing strength of schedule.
And then there is Richard Vautraver’s incredible site:
Fixed AP Polls
He goes over ever season and every poll with what he describes as “the minimum changes required by cold, hard logic”. He somehow separates this from his “personal preferences”, (I guess he’s looking for consistency more than imposing his own opinions. You can click on each year and get a fascinating discussion of all the possible national champions for each and how they stack up against each other. It’s a great read and worth taking a look at whether you are interested in my project or not. If you are interested , read each one before you make up your mind about who should be #1 for that year.
You can click on each on this site and get a list of their All-Americans:
School Index | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
This site lists NFL players by college:
College Football Encyclopedias and NFL Records | Pro-Football-Reference.com
I thought I’d look for players whose NFL career began in the next two years after a particular year as their college peak was presumably as juniors and seniors and they may have transferred in.
One thing I do to measure teams is a system I call “point differential ranking”. I look at each of their games and their opponent’s games using the Howell site and rank their performance as a ‘1’ if they beat the opponent by more than anyone else did, tied an opponent who won all their other games or lost to an opponent who won all their games by the smallest margin. If one team did better, they get a “2”. If two teams did better, they get a’3’, etc. Then I average up the rankings. The result is a team’s ‘PDR’. It’s a measure of power and consistency.
1936: Minnesota was the consensus national champion for 1934 and 1935, (before the AP brought together the writers for their poll). They started out the season #1 again and won their first four games before being beaten, 0-6 by #3 Northwestern, who became #1 for the next three weeks before #11 Notre Dame, a 5-2 team, crushed them 26-6. Minnesota had fallen only to #2 after losing to Northwestern but Northwestern fell to #7 after losing to Notre Dame. I think it was a combination of margin of defeat, (a 20 point loss was a big deal in 1930’s football), and Minnesota’s reputation. Their loss to Northwestern was their first in four years, (they had some ties in 1933). Their reputation at the time was similar to Alabama’s now. Both teams won out and finished 7-1. Minnesota remained at #1. Northwestern at #7 in the final poll, although they might have moved up with the bowl results. LSU was #2 at 8-0-1 but lost to #6 Santa Clara, who finished 8-1, in the Sugar Bowl. #3 Pittsburgh and #5 Washington were both 7-1-1 and met in the Rose bowl, where Pitt dominated 21-0. The Big Ten didn’t do bowl games in those early days so Minnesota and Northwestern stayed home. So did Alabama, for whom it was Rose Bowl or bust. They were #4 and 8-0-1. They’d been tied by a 6-2-2 Tennessee team. Notre Dame was 6-2-1 and finished #8.
I don’t recall reading that there was a big controversy about this year- it’s hard to generate one with Northwestern down at #7. But Vautravers says there was a huge one:
Fixing the 1936 AP Poll
The article contains a discussion of the real reason there were no post-bowl polls for decades and why Slippery Rock became famous. He has a tie for first between Minnesota and Pittsburgh with Northwestern #3 and Alabama downgraded to #6 because of their schedule.
Given the historical regard the polls have for the undefeated record, I doubt Alabama would have bene downgraded in that manner, despite questions about their schedule. Their reputation wasn’t far behind Minnesota’s at the time: they were consensus national champions in 1925 and 1926 and received a lot of support in 1930 and 1934. I think they were taken seriously as a national championship contender and with LSU losing their bowl game and Washington and Santa Clara behind them losing since the last poll, they would have more likely to go up rather than down.
Minnesota was recognized by 7 of the national championship sleectors the NCAA recognizes and Pittsburgh three of them. One, (Williamson), recognized LSU, presumably ignoring the bowl result.
Alabama had no All-Americans that year, although guard Leroy Monsky was one the next year. They had a good line: guard Tarzan White played for the Giants for several years and tackle Bill Young did the same for the Redskins. Halfback Dixie Howell had a very brief pro career. The Tide had 9 opponents, 8 of them major college. They beat 8 of them and tied Tennessee 0-0, outscoring their opponents 168-35. Their PDR, (point differential ranking for the 8 major opponents is 2.88. They were the best team 5-5 Clemson played, (32-0).
Northwestern had an AA in guard Steve Reid. Guard Hal Carlson played a year for the Cardinals. End Johnny Kovatch did the same for the Rams. Halfback Bob Swisher played 5 seasons for the Bears surrounding military service. Linebacker Fred Vanzo played four years of pro ball, mostly for the Bears. The Wildcats played 8 games, 7 against major college opponents. They won their first 7 before losing at Notre Dame 6-26. They scored 132 points and gave up 73. Their PDR was 4.00. They were the best team Minnesota played (6-0).
Pittsburgh had one AA, tackle Averall Daniell and two more the next year, when they won the national championship, tackle Tony Matisis and back Marshall Goldberg. Goldberg was later the long-time fullback of the Cardinals, including for their 1947 NFL champions. Another back, Frank Patrick, played for the Cardinals for a couple of years. Guard Theodore Schmitt played three years for the Eagles. The Panthers played 10 opponents, 9 major college. They lost 0-7 to an 8-2 Duquesne team and tied a 5-1-2 Fordham team. Those teams were ranked #14 and #15, respectively. They out-scored their opponents 224-34. Their PDR was 1.30 and they were the best team 7 of their opponents played, including the last 5 in a row.
Minnesota had one AA, tackle Ed Widseth, who played four years for the Giants. Tailback Julie Alphonse played two years for the Rams. Center/LB Bud Svendsen played two years for the Packers and four with the Brooklyn Dodgers, where coached by Jock Sutherland, the Pitt coach in 1936. Halfback Tuffy Thompson played two years for the Steelers and one for Green Bay. They played 8 teams, all major college. They were the best team five of them played and the second best team three of them played, (in two of those instances, Pittsburgh was the best team). Their PDR was 1.38. They out-scored their opponents 203-32.
I think Minnesota was properly ranked #1. They were the 2 time defending national champions. Their loss to Northwestern was an upset, something the polls often fail to acknowledge but recognized here. Pittsburgh may have been as good or even slightly better but they had a worse record. The team they lost to, Duquesne, was clearly not as good as the team the Golden Gophers lost to, Northwestern, and the Panthers loss was at home. Minnesota’s was on the road. Pitt’s Rose Bowl performance was very impressive but the polls rarely move a team up if the team above them didn’t lose. I think Minnesota would have held on to first place.
So…who do you think was #1 in 1936?
I decided to look at the years since the first AP poll in 1936. Until the AP, (writer’s) did it in 1968, there were no ‘after the bowls’ poll with the exception of an “unofficial” one in 1948 and a one-off effort in 1965. The Coach’s Poll began in 1950 and they didn’t do one after the bowls until 1974. Also the coaches have refused to vote for a team on probation so the issue has come up, (especially in 1967 and 1974), as to whether a team on probation should be considered even if they have the best record.
In most of these cases the obvious solutions to have co-champions but I felt it would be more interesting if we were forced to pick one school. I’ll provide all the information I can about each team and look at then in multiple ways. This is an “open book test” with a poll instead of a test – you can do whatever research you like and you’ll find out many things about college football history along the way. Here are some of my favorite study aids:
The NCAA Football Records Book:
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2017/FBS.pdf
Go to “National poll Rankings” on page 107, (you can click on it). This will list the selectors the NCAA recognizes and which teams were selected national champions by which selectors each year. On page 116 it tells you how #1 ranked teams did in bowl games. On page 121 it gives you the weekly leaders in the AP (writer’s) poll. Page 132 has the results of #1 vs. #2 games and page 134 has games were a #1 ranked team was defeated. Page 135 has the preseason #1 ranked teams. Page 136 has a verbal description of changes in the AP rankings over the course of the season. Page 140 has the final AP polls for each season. Page 147 has the final coach’s polls. Page 150 has the USA Today polls, which became the coach’s poll after UPI withdrew from the ranking business. Page 153 has the USA Today polls on a weekly basis. Page 163 has the BCS rankings. Page 172 lists all the teams with perfect records. Page 174 lists all the teams that lost perfect records in their last game. Page 175 lists streaks- including winning streaks and undefeated streaks.
James Howell’s historical scores:
Historical Scores - Alphabetically by Team
No, he doesn’t list his girlfriends. He lists all the scores for all the major college teams for years when they were considered, (by him, I presume) to be major college teams. The schools are listed alphabetically with the years they are major colleges. You click on that link and you will get their historical scores. You scroll down to the year you want to look at and it will list the opponent and the score, as well as if they were home (vs.) or away (@). If the opponent is a major college, it will give you the opponent’s record and link you to that opponent’s scores for that year. If they are a major college team, they are listed as “non 1-A”. This is a great source for looking beyond the numerical record and accessing strength of schedule.
And then there is Richard Vautraver’s incredible site:
Fixed AP Polls
He goes over ever season and every poll with what he describes as “the minimum changes required by cold, hard logic”. He somehow separates this from his “personal preferences”, (I guess he’s looking for consistency more than imposing his own opinions. You can click on each year and get a fascinating discussion of all the possible national champions for each and how they stack up against each other. It’s a great read and worth taking a look at whether you are interested in my project or not. If you are interested , read each one before you make up your mind about who should be #1 for that year.
You can click on each on this site and get a list of their All-Americans:
School Index | College Football at Sports-Reference.com
This site lists NFL players by college:
College Football Encyclopedias and NFL Records | Pro-Football-Reference.com
I thought I’d look for players whose NFL career began in the next two years after a particular year as their college peak was presumably as juniors and seniors and they may have transferred in.
One thing I do to measure teams is a system I call “point differential ranking”. I look at each of their games and their opponent’s games using the Howell site and rank their performance as a ‘1’ if they beat the opponent by more than anyone else did, tied an opponent who won all their other games or lost to an opponent who won all their games by the smallest margin. If one team did better, they get a “2”. If two teams did better, they get a’3’, etc. Then I average up the rankings. The result is a team’s ‘PDR’. It’s a measure of power and consistency.
1936: Minnesota was the consensus national champion for 1934 and 1935, (before the AP brought together the writers for their poll). They started out the season #1 again and won their first four games before being beaten, 0-6 by #3 Northwestern, who became #1 for the next three weeks before #11 Notre Dame, a 5-2 team, crushed them 26-6. Minnesota had fallen only to #2 after losing to Northwestern but Northwestern fell to #7 after losing to Notre Dame. I think it was a combination of margin of defeat, (a 20 point loss was a big deal in 1930’s football), and Minnesota’s reputation. Their loss to Northwestern was their first in four years, (they had some ties in 1933). Their reputation at the time was similar to Alabama’s now. Both teams won out and finished 7-1. Minnesota remained at #1. Northwestern at #7 in the final poll, although they might have moved up with the bowl results. LSU was #2 at 8-0-1 but lost to #6 Santa Clara, who finished 8-1, in the Sugar Bowl. #3 Pittsburgh and #5 Washington were both 7-1-1 and met in the Rose bowl, where Pitt dominated 21-0. The Big Ten didn’t do bowl games in those early days so Minnesota and Northwestern stayed home. So did Alabama, for whom it was Rose Bowl or bust. They were #4 and 8-0-1. They’d been tied by a 6-2-2 Tennessee team. Notre Dame was 6-2-1 and finished #8.
I don’t recall reading that there was a big controversy about this year- it’s hard to generate one with Northwestern down at #7. But Vautravers says there was a huge one:
Fixing the 1936 AP Poll
The article contains a discussion of the real reason there were no post-bowl polls for decades and why Slippery Rock became famous. He has a tie for first between Minnesota and Pittsburgh with Northwestern #3 and Alabama downgraded to #6 because of their schedule.
Given the historical regard the polls have for the undefeated record, I doubt Alabama would have bene downgraded in that manner, despite questions about their schedule. Their reputation wasn’t far behind Minnesota’s at the time: they were consensus national champions in 1925 and 1926 and received a lot of support in 1930 and 1934. I think they were taken seriously as a national championship contender and with LSU losing their bowl game and Washington and Santa Clara behind them losing since the last poll, they would have more likely to go up rather than down.
Minnesota was recognized by 7 of the national championship sleectors the NCAA recognizes and Pittsburgh three of them. One, (Williamson), recognized LSU, presumably ignoring the bowl result.
Alabama had no All-Americans that year, although guard Leroy Monsky was one the next year. They had a good line: guard Tarzan White played for the Giants for several years and tackle Bill Young did the same for the Redskins. Halfback Dixie Howell had a very brief pro career. The Tide had 9 opponents, 8 of them major college. They beat 8 of them and tied Tennessee 0-0, outscoring their opponents 168-35. Their PDR, (point differential ranking for the 8 major opponents is 2.88. They were the best team 5-5 Clemson played, (32-0).
Northwestern had an AA in guard Steve Reid. Guard Hal Carlson played a year for the Cardinals. End Johnny Kovatch did the same for the Rams. Halfback Bob Swisher played 5 seasons for the Bears surrounding military service. Linebacker Fred Vanzo played four years of pro ball, mostly for the Bears. The Wildcats played 8 games, 7 against major college opponents. They won their first 7 before losing at Notre Dame 6-26. They scored 132 points and gave up 73. Their PDR was 4.00. They were the best team Minnesota played (6-0).
Pittsburgh had one AA, tackle Averall Daniell and two more the next year, when they won the national championship, tackle Tony Matisis and back Marshall Goldberg. Goldberg was later the long-time fullback of the Cardinals, including for their 1947 NFL champions. Another back, Frank Patrick, played for the Cardinals for a couple of years. Guard Theodore Schmitt played three years for the Eagles. The Panthers played 10 opponents, 9 major college. They lost 0-7 to an 8-2 Duquesne team and tied a 5-1-2 Fordham team. Those teams were ranked #14 and #15, respectively. They out-scored their opponents 224-34. Their PDR was 1.30 and they were the best team 7 of their opponents played, including the last 5 in a row.
Minnesota had one AA, tackle Ed Widseth, who played four years for the Giants. Tailback Julie Alphonse played two years for the Rams. Center/LB Bud Svendsen played two years for the Packers and four with the Brooklyn Dodgers, where coached by Jock Sutherland, the Pitt coach in 1936. Halfback Tuffy Thompson played two years for the Steelers and one for Green Bay. They played 8 teams, all major college. They were the best team five of them played and the second best team three of them played, (in two of those instances, Pittsburgh was the best team). Their PDR was 1.38. They out-scored their opponents 203-32.
I think Minnesota was properly ranked #1. They were the 2 time defending national champions. Their loss to Northwestern was an upset, something the polls often fail to acknowledge but recognized here. Pittsburgh may have been as good or even slightly better but they had a worse record. The team they lost to, Duquesne, was clearly not as good as the team the Golden Gophers lost to, Northwestern, and the Panthers loss was at home. Minnesota’s was on the road. Pitt’s Rose Bowl performance was very impressive but the polls rarely move a team up if the team above them didn’t lose. I think Minnesota would have held on to first place.
So…who do you think was #1 in 1936?
