Winning Plays- Miami

[SWC75]

This season I will once again be charting Syracuse’s games in terms of “winning plays”. I look at the results of each play and decide which team got the minimum they wanted out of the play. Rather than making instinctive judgments, I use a formula:

- On first down, the offensive team wants to get at least a third of the way to a new first down: they will have two more plays before they might have to surrender the ball and if they gain that same amount of yards on each of those two plays, they’ll get the first down. If they don’t make it a third of the way to a new first down, the defense won the play.

- On second down, the offense wants to get at least halfway to a new first down by the same logic.

- On third and fourth down, they want to get the first down.

- Penalties, if added onto a play by the referees, are added on to the results above. If the offense gains 5 yards on first down but there was holding and they lost yardage instead, the defense won the play. If a running back made a 20 yard run on first and ten and the holding was 15 yards downfield, turning it into a 5 yard gain, that’s still a win for the offense. If the defense is penalized and it’s tacked on, again the net result is what is evaluated. The penalties I’ve listed negated the play entirely and are a “loss” for the penalized team and thus a win for their opponent. .

- If a penalty was not tacked onto a play, it’s a lost play for the team being penalized. I'll count them separate from the other plays from scrimmage because I don't know if the intended play before the penalty would have been a run or a pass - so i wouldn't know where to put it in the chart below.

- A turnover is, obviously, a win for the team that wound up with the ball.

- On a kick-off a touchback brings the ball out to the 25 yard line. Teams still seem to be trying to kick the ball into the end zone and avoid a runback if they can, so any kick-off that results in the receiving team starting between their goal line and their 25 is a win for the kicking team. Beyond that, the receiving team wins.

- On a punt, a touchback takes the ball out of the 20. So any punt that results in the other team taking over from their goal line to their 20 is a win for the punting team. If the next change in field position is at least 40 yards, the punting tam has also won the play.

- A successful place kick is, obviously, a win for the kicking team.

- Any play that results in a touchdown is, obviously, a win for that team that scores it.

- A “victory play” where a team accepts a loss just to let the clock run out, is a win for the offensive team.

I will indicate in parenthesis how many yards there were to go to get a new first down, (if other than 10), unless it was for no gain or negative yardage. If it was a touchdown, (“TD)” a sack (“S”) a victory play (“V”) or involved a penalty (P). I’ll treat a scramble as a running play, (since it’s not always clear what the intent was), but a sack as a passing play. 1R means first down running plays. 1P means first down passing plays, etc.


THE MIAMI GAME

When Syracuse had the ball:

KO: MIA 25, MIA 27, MIA 24, MIA 11, MIA 34, MIA 15
Total: Syracuse 4 Miami 2
P: 37 to MIA 25, 40 to MIA 10, 16 to MIA 47
Total: Syracuse1 Miami 2
FG: Good from 22, Good from 40, Good from 45, Good from 53
Total: Syracuse 4 Miami 0
XP: Good
Total: Syracuse 1 Miami 0
Kicking plays total: Syracuse 10 Miami 4

1r: -3, 0, 4, 2, 2, 5, 3, 2, 2, 4, 13, 0, 5, 7, 15TD, 3, 2, 1, -5, -1, 8
Total: Syracuse 8 Miami 13
1p: I, -4(S), 7, I, I, 6, -12(S), 14, I, I, I, I, I, 22, I
Total: Syracuse 4 Miami 11
First Down Total: Syracuse 12 Miami 24
2r: 24(13), 2(6), 6(3), 0, 20(7), 2, 2(4), 1, 0, 27, 1(3), 14, 7(1), 14(9), 33(11), -6, 4
Total: Syracuse 9 Miami 8
2p: I, I, I, INT, I, I, 7(8), I, I, I, I, 9, I, 9(2), -9(S)
Total: Syracuse 3 Miami 12
Second Down Total: Syracuse 12 Miami 20
3r: 5(8), 6(5), 1(1), 1(22), 18, 8(1), 0, 28(2)
Total: Syracuse 6 Miami 2
3p: -8, I, 12(4), INT, 27(25), I, 3(2), 15(P), INT, 8, I, 13(5), -2, I, -1(S)
(The first one is the interception/fumble recovery play, which I simply recorded as an 8 yard loss)
Total: Syracuse 6 Miami 10
Third Down Total: Syracuse 12 Miami 12
4r: 3(2)
Total: Syracuse 1 Miami 0
4p: I
Total: Syracuse 0 Miami 1
Fourth Down Total: Syracuse 1 Miami 1

Total on running plays: Syracuse 24 Miami 23
Total on passing plays: Syracuse 13 Miami 34
Total on plays from scrimmage: Syracuse 37 Miami 57

Penalties not tacked on to plays: +6, +5, -4 Syracuse 2 Miami 1
(I love the fact that whoever compiles the play by play on the SU athletics website records the yards the refs actually stepped off instead of what rule book said they should step off. In their second drive of the first quarter- the third official possession due to the interception/fumble play, it says “1st and 10 at SU 43 PENALTY UM 12 men on the field 6 yards to the SU 49”. IN SU’s first possession of the 4th quarter it says “3rd and 1 at UM34 PENALTY SU false start 4 yards to the UM 38. So it had nothing to do with half the distance to the goal.)

Game total when Syracuse had the ball: Syracuse 49 Miami 62

Comments: There are certainly a lot of “I”s on the Syracuse chart. The first six second down passes had 5 incompletions and an interception. Later there were four more incompletions in a row. Of course we had five straight on first down. All told we were 7-23 on first and second down passes, which are usually harder to defend because the defense doesn’t know you have to pass, as they would on third down passing situations. As usual we saved ourselves, (almost) on third and fourth downs with a total of 13 conversions.


When Miami had the ball:

KO: SU 25, SU 25, SU 37, SU 25, SU 35, SU 21
Total: Syracuse 2 Miami 4
P: 25 to MIA 38, 42 to SU 2, 52 to SU 14, 37 to SU 8, 37 to SU 2, 36 to SU 45
Total: Syracuse 2 Miami 4
FG: Good from 18, Good from 39
Total: Syracuse 0 Miami 2
XP: Good, Good, Good
Total: Syracuse 0 Miami 3
Kicking plays total: Syracuse 4 Miami 13

1r: 9, 1(3), 6(15), 6, -2, 3, 6, 2, 6, 5, -1V
Total: Syracuse 3 Miami 8
1p: 15, 5, 5, 8, I, I, 10TD, 1, 21, I, I, -3, 9, 1, 22, I, I, 6, I, I, I, I
Total: Syracuse 13 Miami 9
First Down Total: Syracuse 16 Miami 17
2r: 7(1), 9(5), 3(2), 2(9), 4, 9(7), 0, 4(4), 4, 5, 2(4), 6(4), 33TD, -2V
Total: Syracuse 3 Miami 11
2p: 11(5), 1(2), 24, 5(4), 11(9), 8, 31(12), I, I, 4(1), I, 26(8), 0, 13, 19
Total: Syracuse 4 Miami 11
Second Down Total: Syracuse 7 Miami 22
3r: -1, 2, 2(9), -1, 7, -1V
Total: Syracuse 4 Miami 2
3p: I, I, 35(6), 9(13), 48TD, I
Total: Syracuse 4 Miami 2
Third Down Total: Syracuse 8 Miami 4
4r: none
Total: Syracuse 0 Miami 0
4p: I
Total: Syracuse 1 Miami 0
Fourth Down Total: Syracuse 1 Miami 0

Total on running plays: Syracuse 10 Miami 21
Total on passing plays: Syracuse 22 Miami 22
Total on plays from scrimmage: Syracuse 32 Miami 43

Penalties not tacked on to plays: -5, +3 Syracuse 1 Miami 1

Game total when had the ball: Syracuse 37 Miami 57

Overall Game Total: Syracuse 86 Miami 119

Comments: We did poorly on first down until 6 of the last 7 passes were incomplete. We were destroyed on second down on both runs (3-11) and apsses (4-11). But, as usual, we were great on 3rd and 4th down (9-4). We held our own on pass plays, aided by some drops, (22-22) but were run voer on the ground, (10-21).

Losing a game 86 plays to 119 means that Miami had 33 more successful plays than we did. That wiped out a seasonal advantage we’ve had since the Central Connecticut game. We’ve now seen 794 plays won by SU and 794 won by the opposition – and have 4 wins and 4 losses. This was our worst performance, as judged by winning plays, of the season and worst since the Florida State game last year. It illustrated you can say in games where you are otherwise being dominated if you do well on 3rd and 4th down.

The most similar games since 2011:
2012 Syracuse 96 Cincinnati 122 = -26 Score: Cincinnati 35 Syracuse 24
2013 Syracuse 75 Penn State 113 = -38 Score: Penn State 23 Syracuse 17
2014 Syracuse 75 Clemson 102 = -27 Score: Clemson 16 Syracuse 6
2015 Syracuse 74 Louisville 110 = -36 Score: Louisville 41 Syracuse 17
2016 Syracuse 99 Louisville 132 = -33 Score: Louisville 62 Syracuse 28
2016 Syracuse 72 Wake Forest 101 = -29 Score: Wake Forest 28 Syracuse 9
2016 Syracuse 71 North Carolina State 103 = -32 Score: North Carolina State 35 Syracuse 20
2017 Syracuse 86 Miami 119 = -33 Score: Miami 27 Syracuse 19

You can hang in a game like this but you are unlikely to win it.

 

[SWC75]

GAME BY GAME and TOTALS FOR THE YEAR

When SYRACUSE had the ball:

KO: 8-2 + 5-1 + 5-2 + 3-2 + 2-2 + 5-1 +3-3 + 4-2 = 35-15
P: 3-0 + 4-1 + 7-0 + 6-1 + 3-1 + 4-1 +2-2 + 1-2 = 30-8
FG: 3-1 + 3-1 + 2-0 + 1-0 + 1-1 + 2-0 +2-0 + 4-0 = 18-3
XP: 5-1 + 2-0 + 5-0 + 3-0 + 3-0 + 3-0 +3-0 + 1-0 = 25-1
Kicking plays total: 19-4 + 14-3 + 19-2 + 13-3 + 9-4 + 14-2 + 10-5 + 10-4 = 108-27

1r: 11-11 + 8-14 + 9-14 + 3-8 + 3-7 + 10-11 + 11-9 + 8-13 = 63-87
1p: 17-6 + 9-7 + 4-6 + 12-10 + 9-12 + 6-10 + 7-9 + 4-11 = 68-71
First Down Total: 28-17 + 17-21+ 13-20 + 15-18 + 12-19 + 16-21 + 18-18 + 12-24 = 131-158
2r: 6-5 + 3-5 + 6-6 + 0-4 + 2-7 + 4-5 + 7-7 + 9-8 = 37-47
2p: 7-9 + 8-12 + 6-7 + 8-14 + 8-8 + 13-7 + 4-8 + 3-12 = 57-77
Second Down Total: 13-14 + 11-17 +12-13 + 8-18 + 10-15 +17-12 + 11-15 + 12-20 = 94-124
3r: 3-3 + 6-4 + 3-5 + 3-4 + 2-4 + 4-4 + 6-2 + 6-2 = 33-28
3p: 8-5 + 3-8 + 4-7 + 5-7 + 5-6 + 3-8 + 3-8 + 6-10 = 37-59
Third Down Total: 11-8 + 9-12 + 7-12 + 8-11 + 7-10 + 7-12 + 9-10 + 12-12 = 70-87
4r: 0-0 + 3-0 + 1-0 + 2-0 + 1-0 + 3-0 + 2-0 + 1-0 = 13-0
4p: 1-0 + 0-2 + 0-0 + 0-1 + 2-1 + 0-2 + 0-0 + 0-1 = 3-7
Fourth Down Total: 1-0 + 3-2 + 1-0 + 2-1 + 3-1 + 3-2 + 2-0 + 1-1 = 16-7

Total on running plays: 20-19 + 20-23 + 19-25 + 8-16 + 8-18 + 21-20 + 26-18 + 24-23 = 146-162
Total on passing plays: 33-20 + 20-29 + 14-20 + 25-32 + 24-27 + 22-27 + 14-25 + 13-34 = 165-214
Total on plays from scrimmage: 53-39 + 40-52 + 33-45 + 33-48 + 32-45 + 43-47 + 40-43 + 37-57 = 311-376

Penalties not tacked on to plays: 3-2 + 3-2 + 3-4 + 3-4 + 3-7 + 4-6 + 7-10 + 2-1 = 28-36

Game total when SYRACUSE had the ball: 75-45 + 57-57 + 55-51 + 49-55 + 44-56 + 61-55 + 57-58 + 49-62 = 447-439

Comment: The first game all season where we won first down runs was against the team we were least likely to run the ball against: Clemson!


When OPPONENT had the ball:

KO: 2-0 + 2-3 + 3-1 + 1-6 + 3-4 + 0-4 + 2-3 + 2-4 = 15-25
P: 9-3 + 2-5 + 0-10 + 2-3 + 1-3 + 2-4 + 1-4 + 2-4 = 19-36
FG: 0-0 + 0-0 + 0-1 + 0-0 + 1-2 + 0-3 + 2-1 + 0-2 = 3-9
XP: 0-1 + 0-4 + 0-2 + 0-5 + 1-3 + 0-2 + 0-3 + 0-3 = 1-23
Kicking plays total: 11-4 + 4-12 + 3-14 + 3-14 + 6-12 + 2-13 + 5-11 + 4-13 = 38-93

1r: 8-4 + 11-8 + 12-8 + 8-11 + 13-12 + 7-6 + 6-6 + 3-8 = 68-63
1p: 7-2 + 8-5 + 11-6 + 5-4 + 8-6 + 5-9 + 6-7 + 13-9 = 63-48
First Down Total: 15-6 + 19-13 + 23-14 + 13-15 + 21-18 + 12-15 + 12-13 + 16-17 = 131-111
2r: 6-3 + 6-4 + 4-5 + 3-9 + 5-7 + 5-3 + 4-1 + 3-11 = 36-43
2p: 7-3 + 6-8 + 11-6 + 6-2 + 4-12 + 5-5 + 5-10 + 4-11 = 48-57
Second Down Total: 13-6 + 12-12 + 15-11 + 9-11 + 9-19 + 10-8 + 9-11 + 7-22 = 84-100
3r: 7-0 + 3-0 + 1-4 + 1-3 + 1-3 + 3-1 + 3-1 + 4-2 = 23-14
3p: 8-1 + 6-3 + 8-3 + 5-4 + 7-1 + 7-2 + 6-1 + 4-2 = 51-17
Third Down Total: 15-1 + 9-3 + 9-7 + 6-7 + 8-4 + 10-3 + 9-2 + 8-4 = 74-31
4r: 0-0 + 0-0 + 1-0 + 0-0 + 2-0 + 0-0 + 0-0 + 0-0 = 3-0
4p: 0-1 + 1-0 + 0-1 + 0-0 + 0-0 + 0-0 + 1-0 + 1-0 = 3-2
Fourth Down Total: 0-1 + 1-0 + 1-1 + 0-0 + 2-0 + 0-0 + 1-0 + 1-0 = 6-2

Total on running plays: 21-7 + 20-12 + 18-17 + 12-23 + 21-22 + 15-10 + 13-8 + 10-21 = 130-120
Total on passing plays: 22-7 + 21-16 + 30-26 + 16-10 + 19-19 + 17-10 + 18-18 + 22-22 = 165-128
Total on plays from scrimmage: 43-14 + 41-28 + 48-43 + 28-33 + 40-41 + 32-20 + 31-26 +32-43 = 295-248

Penalties not tacked on to plays: 3-2 + 2-1 + 1-2 + 0-1 + 3-3 + 2-2 + 2-2 + 1-1 = 14-14

Game total when OPPONENT had the ball: 57-20 + 47-41 + 52-59 + 31-48 + 49-56 + 36-35 + 38-39 + 37-57 = 347-355

Overall Game Total: 132-65 + 104-98 + 107-110 + 80-103+ 93-112 + 97-90 + 95-97 + 86-119 = 794-794

Comment: Dino Babers is supposed to be all about offense but we are actually doing better on defense this year (347-355) than on offense (311-376). A huge advantage on third down, (74-31) is a big reason for the defense’s success. The fact that the other team has only gone for it on fourth down 8 times is another, (they’ve only made it twice). We’ve gone for it three times as much (23 times) and made 16. That’s a net of 14 extra possessions. Maybe we kept them far enough from a first down on the first three plays that they weren’t as inclined to try. But some of it is just conventional, (“Meathead”?) thinking.


HISTORICAL WINNING PLAYS
(Game totals only- games we ‘won’ are in bold, games tied in italics.)

2011
Syracuse 101 Wake Forest 87 = +14
Syracuse 92 Rhode Island 65 = +27
Syracuse 75 USC 90 = -15
Syracuse 96 Toledo 88 = +8
Syracuse 103 Rutgers 99 = +4
Syracuse 79 Tulane 99 = -20
Syracuse 90 West Virginia 84 = +6
Syracuse 74 Louisville 83 = -9
Syracuse 84 Connecticut 86 = -2
Syracuse 92 South Florida 106 = -14
Syracuse 83 Cincinnati 104 = -21
Syracuse 87 Pittsburgh 93 = -6
TOTAL: Syracuse 1,056 Opponents 1,117 = -61 We 'won' 4 of 12 games.


2012
Syracuse 105 Northwestern 116 = -11
Syracuse 92 USC 98 = -6
Syracuse 93 Stony Brook 82 = +11
Syracuse 82 Minnesota 95 = -13
Syracuse 85 Pittsburgh 76 = +9
Syracuse 93 Rutgers 73 = +20
Syracuse 103 Connecticut 70 = +33
Syracuse 115 South Florida 92 = +23
Syracuse 96 Cincinnati 122 = -26
Syracuse 103 Louisville 86 = +17
Syracuse 92 Missouri 98 = -6
Syracuse 98 Temple 81 = -+17
Syracuse 105 West Virginia 82 +23
TOTAL: Syracuse 1,262 Opponents 1,171 = +91 We 'won' 8 of 13 games.


2013
Syracuse 75 Penn State 113 = -38
Syracuse 92 Northwestern 114 - = -22
Syracuse 115 Wagner 52 = +63
Syracuse 107 Tulane 76 = +31
Syracuse 64 Clemson 136 = -72
Syracuse 111 N C State 85 = +26
Syracuse 46 Georgia Tech 113 = -67
Syracuse 108 Wake Forest 81 = +27
Syracuse 92 Maryland 88 = +4
Syracuse 55 Florida State 104 = -49
Syracuse 80 Pittsburgh 96 = -16
Syracuse 100 Boston College 87 = +13
Syracuse 99 Minnesota 79 +20
TOTAL: Syracuse 1,144 Opponents 1,224 = -80 We 'won' 7 of 13 games.


2014
Syracuse 91 Villanova 103 = -12
Syracuse 99 Central Michigan 76 = +23
Syracuse 91 Maryland 91 = 0
Syracuse 71 Notre Dame 114 = -43
Syracuse 71 Louisville 100 = -29
Syracuse 80 Florida State 101 = -21
Syracuse 86 Wake Forest 77 = +9
Syracuse 75 Clemson 102 = -27
Syracuse 92 N C State 101 = -9
Syracuse 78 Duke 98 = -20
Syracuse 46 Pittsburgh 114 = -68
Syracuse 72 Boston College 78 = -6
TOTAL: Syracuse 952 Opponents 1,155 = -203 We 'won' 2 of 12 games, with one even.


2015
Syracuse 96 Rhode Island 56 = +40
Syracuse 83 Wake Forest 83 = 0
Syracuse 84 Central Michigan 91 = -7
Syracuse 84 Louisiana State 89 = -5
Syracuse 80 South Florida 93 = -13
Syracuse 86 Virginia 97 = -11
Syracuse 70 Pittsburgh 89 = -19
Syracuse 84 Florida State 100 = -16
Syracuse 74 Louisville 110 = -36
Syracuse 83 Clemson 105 = -22
Syracuse 78 North Carolina State 100 = -22
Syracuse 89 Boston College 78 = +11
TOTAL: Syracuse 991 Opponents 1091 = -100 We 'won' 2 of 12 games with one even.

2016
Syracuse 101 Colgate 74 = +27
Syracuse 99 Louisville 132 = -33
Syracuse 95 South Florida 116 = -21
Syracuse 91 Connecticut 99 = -8
Syracuse 98 Notre Dame 111 = -13
Syracuse 72 Wake Forest 101 = -29
Syracuse 103 Virginia Tech 104 = -1
Syracuse 93 Boston College 84 = +9
Syracuse 74 Clemson 120 = -46
Syracuse 71 North Carolina State 103 = -32
Syracuse 71 Florida State 120 = -49
Syracuse 107 Pittsburgh 118 = -11
TOTAL: Syracuse 1075 Opponent 1282 = -207 We 'won' 2 of 12 games.

2017
Syracuse 132 Central Connecticut 65 = +67
Syracuse 104 Middle Tennessee 98 = +6
Syracuse 107 Central Michigan 110 = -3
Syracuse 80 Louisiana State 103 = -23
Syracuse 93 North Carolina State 112 = -19
Syracuse 97 Pittsburgh 90 = +7
Syracuse 95 Clemson 97= -2
Syracuse 86 Miami 119 = -33
TOTAL: Syracuse 794 Opponents 794 = 0 We’ve ‘won’ 3 of 8 games

Totals since 2011: Syracuse has won 7,274 plays, (48.1%) and 28 games, (34.1%). The opposition has won 7,834 plays and 52 games with 2 games even. We’ve seen the opposition obtain their goals on 560 more plays than we have in 82 games, an average of 6.8 plays a game.

 

[SmilinBob]

The Miami punter and those gunners for the Hurricanes did an excellent job of pinning SU inside of the 10 yard line.

 

[cuse10]

The Miami punter and those gunners for the Hurricanes did an excellent job of pinning SU inside of the 10 yard line.

With that said, SU moved the ball better in the second half.

There are few plays that stand out to me in which SU could have scored or completely turned the tide of the game

• Dungey forcing the ball to Ervin Philips for his third interception. If he went through his progressions, he had Ishmael wide open on a slant with real estate and no one near him. Good chance he probably scores.
• Aaron Servais snapping the ball into the ground on first and second down in the red zone. Takes SU out of touchdown position and forces them to kick a 50 yard field goal. I haven't been impressed with Servais at all this season. That, along with the 15 yard penalty against NC State, was a possession in which he directly cost Syracuse six points.
• Rodney Williams dropping the interception (his second drop of the game) near midfield. He catches that, with the time remaining, Dino could have milked the clock for a game winning field goal. The ensuing play resulted in the game clinching touchdown.

 

[SWC75]

With that said, SU moved the ball better in the second half.

There are few plays that stand out to me in which SU could have scored or completely turned the tide of the game

• Dungey forcing the ball to Ervin Philips for his third interception. If he went through his progressions, he had Ishmael wide open on a slant with real estate and no one near him. Good chance he probably scores.
• Aaron Servais snapping the ball into the ground on first and second down in the red zone. Takes SU out of touchdown position and forces them to kick a 50 yard field goal. I haven't been impressed with Servais at all this season. That, along with the 15 yard penalty against NC State, was a possession in which he directly cost Syracuse six points.
• Rodney Williams dropping the interception (his second drop of the game) near midfield. He catches that, with the time remaining, Dino could have milked the clock for a game winning field goal. The ensuing play resulted in the game clinching touchdown.

We all love Dungey but he's not real good at reading the field. We need to sue all our weapons and the whole field and Eric tends to focus on 1-2 guys.

 

[upperdeck]

has anyone really asked the question what his read options are in this offense. What we see as looking at 1-2 guys might well be what he is supposed to do on some plays since many of our plays are not ones where the WR just runs a designed route but ones where they are supposed to adjust on what the D does..

its interesting to hear the coaches say the INTs were mistakes not by the QB.. if a WR runs the wrong route its not like the qb has time to see everything. he is looking at his progression and throwing where the D says the guy will be open.. if a WR that is not in his read progression goes to the wrong spot and drags a DB into the hole thats not a QB issue. I think we dont know the complexities of the route trees well enough to even know if he is staring down a WR. Phillips runs a lot of 2nd dary moves and when we see balls go into space that means what he saw and what the QB saw were 2 different things and sometimes you need to watching the WR to know where is break down is going to happen.. the stem of the route may not be decided until 5-10 yds down field and the play design creates the hole for what the D should be doing. Dungey then needs to watch and anticipate that hole.

brady/manning/rodgers all do the same thing staring down the WR they trust in some spots too.

 

[SWC75]

has anyone really asked the question what his read options are in this offense. What we see as looking at 1-2 guys might well be what he is supposed to do on some plays since many of our plays are not ones where the WR just runs a designed route but ones where they are supposed to adjust on what the D does..

its interesting to hear the coaches say the INTs were mistakes not by the QB.. if a WR runs the wrong route its not like the qb has time to see everything. he is looking at his progression and throwing where the D says the guy will be open.. if a WR that is not in his read progression goes to the wrong spot and drags a DB into the hole thats not a QB issue. I think we dont know the complexities of the route trees well enough to even know if he is staring down a WR. Phillips runs a lot of 2nd dary moves and when we see balls go into space that means what he saw and what the QB saw were 2 different things and sometimes you need to watching the WR to know where is break down is going to happen.. the stem of the route may not be decided until 5-10 yds down field and the play design creates the hole for what the D should be doing. Dungey then needs to watch and anticipate that hole.

brady/manning/rodgers all do the same thing staring down the WR they trust in some spots too.

What you are describing requires a quarterback that sees the whole field and makes good judgements about where to throw. Of course, that gets hard to do when the defensive linemen and linebackers are in you face, as we saw at Miami.

 

[upperdeck]

I think our issue is seeing pre snap vs post snap reads, some qbs are better at one vs the other..

 

[reedny]

has anyone really asked the question what his read options are in this offense. What we see as looking at 1-2 guys might well be what he is supposed to do on some plays since many of our plays are not ones where the WR just runs a designed route but ones where they are supposed to adjust on what the D does..

its interesting to hear the coaches say the INTs were mistakes not by the QB.. if a WR runs the wrong route its not like the qb has time to see everything. he is looking at his progression and throwing where the D says the guy will be open.. if a WR that is not in his read progression goes to the wrong spot and drags a DB into the hole thats not a QB issue. I think we dont know the complexities of the route trees well enough to even know if he is staring down a WR. Phillips runs a lot of 2nd dary moves and when we see balls go into space that means what he saw and what the QB saw were 2 different things and sometimes you need to watching the WR to know where is break down is going to happen.. the stem of the route may not be decided until 5-10 yds down field and the play design creates the hole for what the D should be doing. Dungey then needs to watch and anticipate that hole.

brady/manning/rodgers all do the same thing staring down the WR they trust in some spots too.

I noticed that Babers said that as well. Not sure about the 3 others, but that one interception where Dungey threw into a 3 on 1 looked like a mis-read. You might be right that the WR dragged the D over there, but still ... the QB's got to see where the coverage is.

 

[SWC75]

I think our issue is seeing pre snap vs post snap reads, some qbs are better at one vs the other..

And it doesn't help is the snap is a bouncer to shortstop.

 

[SWC75]

I noticed that Babers said that as well. Not sure about the 3 others, but that one interception where Dungey threw into a 3 on 1 looked like a mis-read. You might be right that the WR dragged the D over there, but still ... the QB's got to see where the coverage is.

Also, I don't think you want to throw a sideline pass to the inside. Better to throw it to the outside where only your guy can get it. And you're not looking for hang time.

 

[upperdeck]

Dungey makes some really nice throws.. but he also at times rushes the footwork and throws and that leads to issues.. he gets away with some of the throws because ISH fights so hard for the 50/50 balls. Short and inside throws have led to many of the mistakes though