With the population of NYS besides the popularity of basketball why is NY HS FB not better?

[Alsacs]

New York is a top 5 population state and is probably number 1 or 2 at producing HS basketball talent but why is New York closer to Massachusetts than New Jersey at producing HS football talent? It has become obvious that FB recruiting at the end of the day starts with your home base. If you have talent in your backyard it becomes easier obviously. Is their potential for NY HS FB to become a top 15 state in producing HS talent or are we going to need to continue hammering NJ, Western PA, FL?

 

[RF2044]

Talent is part of it, but a bigger factor IMO is the coaching / feeder programs from youth leagues on up. I spent some time living in Ohio, and there is a fundamental difference between how football is emphasized there versus other states. And sure--people play other sports. But unlike NYS, they are truly passionate about high school football in a way that people don't seem to be in NYS. And because of that, they have the youth league infrastructure to get kids better coaching, etc. from the time they are in pop warner up until the get to the HS level.

The only thing I can compare it to for townies would be West Gennessee's lacrosse program. Obviously, they are a dominant powerhouse. But the reason they are isn't just because they have solid teams, its because they groom talent at the youth level, and spend a decade+ turning them into great players BEFORE they ever get to the high school level. Now imagine that times 50 across the state, and that's what you get in states like Ohio, Texas, Florida, and California.

Another factor is that a preponderance of the state's population is concentrated in NYC, where football isn't really emphasized. So while we might be a top 5 population state, the biggest proportion of that population lives in a place where access and funding to football is more limited than in most places.

 

[Marroniac]

New York is a top 5 population state and is probably number 1 or 2 at producing HS basketball talent but why is New York closer to Massachusetts than New Jersey at producing HS football talent? It has become obvious that FB recruiting at the end of the day starts with your home base. If you have talent in your backyard it becomes easier obviously. Is their potential for NY HS FB to become a top 15 state in producing HS talent or are we going to need to continue hammering NJ, Western PA, FL?

Because New York City doesn't have any grass.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

But unlike NYS, they are truly passionate about high school football in a way that people don't seem to be in NYS. And because of that, they have the youth league infrastructure to get kids better coaching, etc. from the time they are in pop warner up until the get to the HS level.

That sums up a lot of it. People in NYS just aren't passionate enough to get behind the programs and in the cases where they are it is usually on a lower level where the athletes aren't big/fast/strong enough to play at the highest level. But even in the school district I live in (Shenendahowa), which is perennially a top program among the large schools in NYS, very rarely does one of its football players make it to the top level in college football. Strangely enough, I think there have been almost as many or more MLB players out of this area as NFL players.

 

[KaiserUEO]

That sums up a lot of it. People in NYS just aren't passionate enough to get behind the programs and in the cases where they are it is usually on a lower level where the athletes aren't big/fast/strong enough to play at the highest level. But even in the school district I live in (Shenendahowa), which is perennially a top program among the large schools in NYS, very rarely does one of its football players make it to the top level in college football. Strangely enough, I think there have been almost as many or more MLB players out of this area as NFL players.

USC, the University of Shenendehowa at CliftonPark, is perennially good because it should be 2 high schools, like Shaker and Colonie. Larger pool to pull from, with great coaching too, Steuerwald was best in state for years.

Millhouse has brought this up before, a lot is because we in the northeast don't play 7 on 7, or have spring ball. Jersey starts kids young for sure, town flag leagues start at kindergarten level. Play 60 is helping NYC kids play in the concrete jungle as well...

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

New York is a top 5 population state and is probably number 1 or 2 at producing HS basketball talent but why is New York closer to Massachusetts than New Jersey at producing HS football talent? It has become obvious that FB recruiting at the end of the day starts with your home base. If you have talent in your backyard it becomes easier obviously. Is their potential for NY HS FB to become a top 15 state in producing HS talent or are we going to need to continue hammering NJ, Western PA, FL?

Because NY parents are smart enough not to get caught up in all of that.

 

[rrlbees]

Weather and population concentrations.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

USC, the University of Shenendehowa at CliftonPark, is perennially good because it should be 2 high schools, like Shaker and Colonie. Larger pool to pull from, with great coaching too, Steuerwald was best in state for years.

No doubt they have a large population base to draw from but they also have a pretty good feeder program with the Jr. Plainsman and for their other sports as well.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Weather and population concentrations.

Also, how about the fact the some of the best football players in NYS might be playing a sport like Lacrosse instead. The bottom line is that NYS is never going to be a football hotbed and if it is, it's going to take a lot of money, commitment and time which a lot of school districts do not have.

 

[HtownOrange]

Another point on the issue is that kids are dedicated by mom and dad to their sports at young ages. Mom and Dad choose football or baseball or another sport and the kid is groomed only in that sport, nearly year round. Naturally, the off-season workouts are "voluntary" but if you want to play the next year, you "volunteer". As noted by Capt. Tuttle, parents play the big role in this.

A friend's son was on the State Champion swim team and he had about 6-8 weeks off from training annually. This is in high school but stretches down to middle schools.

My daughters were very competitive in volleyball and they played and practiced about 9 months annually. My daughters wanted to stay in volleyball so we did it as a family thing. My youngest got injured and missed winter training which put her back and then was in a car accident so she missed a season. She dropped the sport once she realized how much time it actually took and that she was really to short to get a scholarship.

It should be noted that many times, the club teams in sports (other than football) are also more talented than the school teams and that coaches will encourage playing on club teams in the off season for better training. Goes hand in hand with the 7-on-7 that is so popular here in Texas, Florida and throughout the football factory states.

 

[Crusty]

People in NY actually have lives.

 

[Scooch]

RF nailed it, comes down to priorities and the developmental system. It's not like the Overton neighborhood in Miami has any more grass than the South Bronx, but they CARE about football there and the kids are playing it year round from an early age.

And it's not just population. Remove NYC, Westchester/Rockland counties and even LI, and the rest of NYS still has enough population to outrank places like Louisiana, etc. Much smaller states that produce a lot more D-1A talent than NYS.

So much of it is coaching and development. My wife coached varsity cheeleading for years in a town here in CT and she cranked out conference championships and top 5 state finishes. She stopped, and the three coaches that have followed have never done as well. It's not because the girls in the program have any less ability, they've just had (a) bad coaching, and (b) less focus on development at a younger age. My wife started a summer cheer camp that taught the middle school girls fundamentals, so that when they got to HS they were ready to contribute meaningfully. Subsequent coaches haven't done that and it shows in the HS team's performance, girls are learning skills they should have mastered 3 years earlier.

 

[Shaggy]

season length and size of schools.

 

[upperdeck]

because like many things in society we throw money at the problem with no real solutions.. basketball has become a year around thing. everyone thinks they have a kid who can get a scholie. coaches "make" kids play year around if they want to be on the team. AAU basketball is a joke for most kids but they have to play. Most coaches are pretty poor so they expect the kids to get better out of season.

the kids who could actually be good at fball either dedicate to it or in most smaller schools make it one of 2-3 other sports. but LAX is now expecting full season commitment too. baseball suffers because up here by the time the weather is good the season is over, basketball is all summer leagues

fball takes more training than any other sport to physical enough, and it rewards physical play more than actual fball talent more than any other sport.

soccer has become the placeholder for kids, kids get hurt but thats ok because its just a soccer thing, unlike fball where is because its too violent.

as scooch says it really comes down to coaching, i know many of the best kids want to have a life, and coaches think time dedicated to the sport is the only answer, when its really better coaching

workouts would benefit the kids for all the sports but coaches only see it for the one they coach.. The local ADs need to get a handle on it.

Still fball the last 25 years is less about the talent and more about the size, you need a program from the youngs kids on up and you have to show you can win to get kids to stay in program long enough to show it when they get to HS..

 

[rrlbees]

RF nailed it, comes down to priorities and the developmental system. It's not like the Overton neighborhood in Miami has any more grass than the South Bronx, but they CARE about football there and the kids are playing it year round from an early age. And it's not just population. Remove NYC, Westchester/Rockland counties and even LI, and the rest of NYS still has enough population to outrank places like Louisiana, etc. Much smaller states that produce a lot more D-1A talent than NYS. So much of it is coaching and development. My wife coached varsity cheeleading for years in a town here in CT and she cranked out conference championships and top 5 state finishes. She stopped, and the three coaches that have followed have never done as well. It's not because the girls in the program have any less ability, they've just had (a) bad coaching, and (b) less focus on development at a younger age. My wife started a summer cheer camp that taught the middle school girls fundamentals, so that when they got to HS they were ready to contribute meaningfully. Subsequent coaches haven't done that and it shows in the HS team's performance, girls are learning skills they should have mastered 3 years earlier.

Those southern states can go year round. It's a host of factors.

 

[Scooch]

FWIW, if I were an SU coach I would just accept this and focus my recruiting efforts accordingly. I think it's a fools errand to spend time trying to change the dynamic that exists in NYS. It won't work, there are institutional issues far deeper and more ingrained than what one staff at SU can affect.

 

[Scooch]

Those southern states can go year round. It's a host of factors.

Right, but that's part of the development issue. The weather in NY ain't any worse than NJ, PA or Ohio, but those states crank out a lot more D-1A recruits than NY. I imagine kids in those northern states are in off-season developmental programs that many comparable NY kids don't undertake.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

That sums up a lot of it. People in NYS just aren't passionate enough to get behind the programs and in the cases where they are it is usually on a lower level where the athletes aren't big/fast/strong enough to play at the highest level. But even in the school district I live in (Shenendahowa), which is perennially a top program among the large schools in NYS, very rarely does one of its football players make it to the top level in college football. Strangely enough, I think there have been almost as many or more MLB players out of this area as NFL players.

This. It's cultural more than anything. That culture bleeds into there being a lack of resources (time, money, interest, manpower) at the High School level to adequately keep up with football in other states.

Frankly, i'm okay with that though, because i can't even fathom how crippling school taxes would be if we had to pay to fund programs the way they do in football-centric states.

 

[qdawgg]

Missing one of the biggest factors. NYS limits practice and amount of games for players and football has some of the most restrictive laws of any state.

Pop Warner coaches I've seen are all very passionate.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Right, but that's part of the development issue. The weather in NY ain't any worse than NJ, PA or Ohio, but those states crank out a lot more D-1A recruits than NY. I imagine kids in those northern states are in off-season developmental programs that many comparable NY kids don't undertake.

The weather here is worse, and more importantly, winter goes on much longer.

 

[Chip]

Right, but that's part of the development issue. The weather in NY ain't any worse than NJ, PA or Ohio, but those states crank out a lot more D-1A recruits than NY. I imagine kids in those northern states are in off-season developmental programs that many comparable NY kids don't undertake.

Right, I get why NYS has that disadvantage around warm weather places. But why are NJ, PA, Ohio SO much better. Just has to be a football culture. Maybe having the big state school who plays big time college football (PA and OH at least) is what helps fuel the passion. Doesn't explain NJ though.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

because like many things in society we throw money at the problem with no real solutions.. basketball has become a year around thing. everyone thinks they have a kid who can get a scholie. coaches "make" kids play year around if they want to be on the team. AAU basketball is a joke for most kids but they have to play. Most coaches are pretty poor so they expect the kids to get better out of season.

the kids who could actually be good at fball either dedicate to it or in most smaller schools make it one of 2-3 other sports. but LAX is now expecting full season commitment too. baseball suffers because up here by the time the weather is good the season is over, basketball is all summer leagues

fball takes more training than any other sport to physical enough, and it rewards physical play more than actual fball talent more than any other sport.

soccer has become the placeholder for kids, kids get hurt but thats ok because its just a soccer thing, unlike fball where is because its too violent.

as scooch says it really comes down to coaching, i know many of the best kids want to have a life, and coaches think time dedicated to the sport is the only answer, when its really better coaching

workouts would benefit the kids for all the sports but coaches only see it for the one they coach.. The local ADs need to get a handle on it.

Still fball the last 25 years is less about the talent and more about the size, you need a program from the youngs kids on up and you have to show you can win to get kids to stay in program long enough to show it when they get to HS..

To call soccer a "place holder" shows a lack of understanding the growth of soccer. Some of the best HS athletes are playing, because you don't have to be 6'2" and 200 lbs to do well and go far. In 2-3 generations, at least in central NY, I believe soccer will overtake FB for youth participation.
The best soccer players are looking outside of HS, to academy teams, for which they play year round. The top colleges never scout HS games. Its club and academy only.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Another point on the issue is that kids are dedicated by mom and dad to their sports at young ages. Mom and Dad choose football or baseball or another sport and the kid is groomed only in that sport, nearly year round. Naturally, the off-season workouts are "voluntary" but if you want to play the next year, you "volunteer". As noted by Capt. Tuttle, parents play the big role in this.

A friend's son was on the State Champion swim team and he had about 6-8 weeks off from training annually. This is in high school but stretches down to middle schools.

My daughters were very competitive in volleyball and they played and practiced about 9 months annually. My daughters wanted to stay in volleyball so we did it as a family thing. My youngest got injured and missed winter training which put her back and then was in a car accident so she missed a season. She dropped the sport once she realized how much time it actually took and that she was really to short to get a scholarship.

It should be noted that many times, the club teams in sports (other than football) are also more talented than the school teams and that coaches will encourage playing on club teams in the off season for better training. Goes hand in hand with the 7-on-7 that is so popular here in Texas, Florida and throughout the football factory states.

Well, swimmers swim. My son swam in HS and college. It is a year round.

 

[supp]

RF nailed it, comes down to priorities and the developmental system. It's not like the Overton neighborhood in Miami has any more grass than the South Bronx, but they CARE about football there and the kids are playing it year round from an early age.

Most high schools in Miami, though, actually field a team. That's not the case in NYC. And there's no AAU for football to make up for the lack of a program in school.

Bball is way more popular simply because it's way more accessible to all. Ever tried to play a game of pick-up football?

And it's not just population. Remove NYC, Westchester/Rockland counties and even LI, and the rest of NYS still has enough population to outrank places like Louisiana, etc. Much smaller states that produce a lot more D-1A talent than NYS.

Kids play multiple sports up here. And even NJ and PA are pretty mediocre at developing fball talent per capita compared to states down south. The good news is that we've got less competition for the kids that can play compared to down south. The NE states have just one more P5 team than AL and MS combined while having about 50 million more people.

 

[wiCuse]

I know this is slightly off topic, but I coach high school football in Wisconsin and we produce more D-I players than New York per capita, which is mind boggling. The reason I bring this up is that everyone is Wisconsin wants to be a Badger. I don't get that feeling with Syracuse in New York. This allows the Badgers to consistently have players turn down FCS offers to walk on for the Badgers and some of those guys always plan out and are key contributors or starters. Could Syracuse somehow reduce their tuition to a state university to make this a priority? Or maybe this is just another advantage large public schools have with football?