With the population of NYS besides the popularity of basketball why is NY HS FB not better? | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

With the population of NYS besides the popularity of basketball why is NY HS FB not better?

Capt. Tuttle said:
To call soccer a "place holder" shows a lack of understanding the growth of soccer. Some of the best HS athletes are playing, because you don't have to be 6'2" and 200 lbs to do well and go far. In 2-3 generations, at least in central NY, I believe soccer will overtake FB for youth participation.
The best soccer players are looking outside of HS, to academy teams, for which they play year round. The top colleges never scout HS games. Its club and academy only.
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there is good soccer being played and good athletes playing it. but far more kids play soccer because it takes up kids time for parents than any other sport because its the easiest to play. not to play at a high level but just to be on the field playing.

and i dont disagree fball will get over taken and much of is because you dont need to be the physical specimen to get on the field.. but when fball fades away and those kids who are the better athletes play, most of the kids who play now will not be on the field any more. you take the avg HS around here most of the best athletes are still playing fball/bball and not soccer. even the good soccer schools still probably have the kid who would be the best player playing some other sport.
 
Outside of hoops in the big urban areas being king, in CNY (my area) and LI the answer is Lacrosse, lacrosse and lacrosse. Suburban, rural parents love it and now it's becoming 2nd and 3rd generation in families. Additionally, in CNY players going on to play college lacrosse versus college football is about 10 to 1 at a minimum.
 
the only thing that sucks worse than playing football on a rainy/sleety/crappy november day is watching it outdoors on a rainy sleety crappy day.
 
Shaggy said:
season length and size of schools.
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Yep. 8 game season for most teams in NYS. From what I have seen (lived in PA/RI) most other schools have 10 or 11 games. In Rhode Island (of all places) high school teams play from Labor day to Thanksgiving. In NYS the season has already been over for a month. This makes some difference. The year round play makes a difference too.

That's not to say that the talent isn't there. Honestly I would look for kids that in NYC that are 6'5", play power forward, and are being recruited by non-p5 schools for basketball. I'd take a long look at these kids to see what they could do.
 
Scooch said:
My wife coached varsity cheeleading for years in a town here in CT and she cranked out conference championships and top 5 state finishes.

Blah blah blah.
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Is she hot?
hqdefault.jpg
 
I can't speak for the rest of the state but NYC is currently undergoing a surge in HS football interest. The talent has improved significantly in the last decade due to the proliferation of youth football leagues. Even the past 5 years has seen more youth programs launch and there are more kids playing football in 5 boros than ever before.

Manhattan is tough because space is incredibly limited but there are more fields than you might think in Brooklyn Staten Island, Queens and the BX

Another main issue is NYC public Schools only pay a HC and 1 asst for varsity. So your staff is made up of almost all volunteers.

It will take awhile to see a real shift but NYC is steadily improving our ability to generate football talent.
 
qdawgg said:
Missing one of the biggest factors. NYS limits practice and amount of games for players and football has some of the most restrictive laws of any state.

Pop Warner coaches I've seen are all very passionate.
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nj is an example of how a progressive state handles the sport. they are able to keep academic priorities in focus while having excellent football. nys should use them for a model for coaching and player development. someone correct me if i am wrong, but their feeder programs are excellent, they have more practices and games, allow off season workouts. nj is also densely populated. coaching at all levels is usually very,very good. many of the d1 kids are from very good h.s. academically. also regional high schools usually take a hard line with academics and behavior. one fairly large h.s. cancelled their football season this year after very serious behavioral issues from some players. it was done by the superintendent and the boe. i believe it was sayerville nj. this was truly a serious and disturbing situation. i lived in nj for 32 years, and in the small towns, everyone goes to the games as well as wrestling.
 
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lots of great points in this thread and everybody is spot on.

Agree with the cultural point and being driven by the parents starting their kids at young ages. We have D1 sized kids and D1 speed but starting a the K-2 level parents pick a sport and the kid is largely groomed in it that sport. They're not picking football. It's Lax, Hockey, Baseball, Soccer. They have to pull mutliple districts together to field pop-warner teams around me. Numbers just aren't there and kids are playing these others sports year round in the bubbles and domes.
 
It is still worth it for SU's coaches to run summer camps in different areas of the state. I don't know if SU will ever get the best NYS players, but if you can find kids like Bromley and Reddish, it's worth it.
 
Full_Rebar said:
It is still worth it for SU's coaches to run summer camps in different areas of the state. I don't know if SU will ever get the best NYS players, but if you can find kids like Bromley and Reddish, it's worth it.
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the NYC camp makes it easier for NJ and MD kids to attend. if I remember correctly Isaiah Johnson got his offer from the Marist camp.
 
Last year all the FB camps were at Syracuse. I wouldn't be surprised to see them do that again this year.
 
PhatOrange said:
the NYC camp makes it easier for NJ and MD kids to attend. if I remember correctly Isaiah Johnson got his offer from the Marist camp.
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Great point and a camp in Buffalo would open up Ohio and Western PA as well.
 
Full_Rebar said:
Great point and a camp in Buffalo would open up Ohio and Western PA as well.
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Well it isn't going to happen. They prefer to get these kids up and on campus instead.

http://cuse.com/sports/2015/1/26/FH_0126151007.aspx?path=football

Camp Location and Mailing Address:
Syracuse University
Manley Field House Football Office
1301 East Colvin Street
Syracuse, NY 13244
(corner of East Colvin Street and Comstock Avenue)
2015 Camp Dates
Dates Registration Deadline Registration Hours Camp Hours
Saturday, June 6 Wednesday, June 3 10:30 to 11 am 11 am to 2 pm
Saturday, June 13 Wednesday, June 10 10:30 to 11 am 11 am to 2 pm
Saturday, June 20 Wednesday, June 17 10:30 to 11 am 11 am to 2 pm
Monday, June 22 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
Tuesday, June 23 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
Wednesday, June 24 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
Thursday, June 25 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
 
It would be interesting to see what kids are playing what sports at HS and how it compare depending on school size.. Im sure the smaller the schools the more kids are playing multiple sports. But are the sports actually getting the best kids playing each sport? My kids is about done and I have seen all the kids in our HS play youth/varsity in almost every sport

I know at our school we have soccer/fball as the major fall sports. there is not one kid on the soccer team that would play meaningful minutes on the fball team. being a small school there are 25-30 kids on fball and 15-20 or so on the soccer team. I think if you gave our fball team a week to practice they would beat our soccer team with no problem and our soccer team isnt awful. not sectional quality but competitive most of the time.. By far the best athletes in the school are playing fball. kids grumble about playing time. the coaches play their favorites unless its a blowout.

basketball we are very competitive, won the sectionals multiple times and gotten to the states final 4 a couple times. Still I know there are a group of kids not playing at all because of the time commitment and coaching demands that would beat our varsity and our team is top 10 in the state this year. But there are kids willing to sit the bench and not play a minute because the team wins.

Baseball there are probably 2-3 kids who could play that aren't playing. mostly because no one wants to sit the bench in baseball its too hard a sport to play well and much easier to spot kids who are struggling.

In NY you add in some hockey/lax. Schools like Ithaca which have good programs most of the better kids who would be good fball players dont play at all, partly because the team is bad at fball but they are bad because the best kids dont play. and there are Div 1 athletes playing hockey/lax at many upstate ny schools who would be the type of player to excel at fball.
 
CuseLegacy said:
Well it isn't going to happen. They prefer to get these kids up and on campus instead.

http://cuse.com/sports/2015/1/26/FH_0126151007.aspx?path=football

Camp Location and Mailing Address:
Syracuse University
Manley Field House Football Office
1301 East Colvin Street
Syracuse, NY 13244
(corner of East Colvin Street and Comstock Avenue)
2015 Camp Dates
Dates Registration Deadline Registration Hours Camp Hours
Saturday, June 6 Wednesday, June 3 10:30 to 11 am 11 am to 2 pm
Saturday, June 13 Wednesday, June 10 10:30 to 11 am 11 am to 2 pm
Saturday, June 20 Wednesday, June 17 10:30 to 11 am 11 am to 2 pm
Monday, June 22 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
Tuesday, June 23 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
Wednesday, June 24 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
Thursday, June 25 Wednesday, June 17 3:30 to 4 pm 4 to 7 pm
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NY kids are still in school until the week of the 22nd, so who picked these dates? I know Shafer likes to give the coaches vacation time in July, so taking a couple of these off-campus would certainly open it up to a greater pool of recruits and allow him to do that, but otherwise June on-campus camps seem to be limiting the potential audience.

More and more schools are holding camps out of state (Penn St in Atlanta, and Fla, Iowa in Chicago, Ok St in Texas), so it seems backwards for SU to hold everything on-campus. Just my opinion.
 
Full_Rebar said:
NY kids are still in school until the week of the 22nd, so who picked these dates? I know Shafer likes to give the coaches vacation time in July, so taking a couple of these off-campus would certainly open it up to a greater pool of recruits and allow him to do that, but otherwise June on-campus camps seem to be limiting the potential audience.

More and more schools are holding camps out of state (Penn St in Atlanta, and Fla, Iowa in Chicago, Ok St in Texas), so it seems backwards for SU to hold everything on-campus. Just my opinion.
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Some of those camps that you are talking about that schools in other conferences hold are not allowed in the ACC.
 
wiCuse said:
I know this is slightly off topic, but I coach high school football in Wisconsin and we produce more D-I players than New York per capita, which is mind boggling. The reason I bring this up is that everyone is Wisconsin wants to be a Badger. I don't get that feeling with Syracuse in New York. This allows the Badgers to consistently have players turn down FCS offers to walk on for the Badgers and some of those guys always plan out and are key contributors or starters. Could Syracuse somehow reduce their tuition to a state university to make this a priority? Or maybe this is just another advantage large public schools have with football?
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What part of WI? You are right though there is a huge pride factor in being a Badger.
 
CuseLegacy said:
Some of those camps that you are talking about that schools in other conferences hold are not allowed in the ACC.
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Thanks. I didn't realize that the ACC had that rule...and of course, ND isn't following it.
 
Here's a counter-intuitive. Statistically, NYS produces more athletes and offers more high school sports than Florida.

Total number of high school football programs in Florida: 556 with 40k kids playing on an average team size of 73

Total number of high school football programs in New York: 572 with 35k kids playing on an average team size of 62 (more PT, baby!)

It's not the weather... Total athletes (boys only): NY at 215k versus Fla at 154k. Significantly more kids play high school tennis in NYS. More kids play golf. Same holds for track and field OUTDOOR participation. Throw in winter sports and football has huge competition (plus, NYS kids are tougher if they are willing to brave the Feb. cold to run track and field outdoors).

And so it goes... Number of kids playing lax in Florida: 5,680... Number of kids playing lax in NYS: 16,169... Number of kids playing soccer in Florida: 15,769... Number of kids playing soccer in NYS: 23,669

The answer is partly in competition for a kid's time. Kids in NYS have more choices. Other programs get funded whereas in Florida, "there ain't much to do" besides football. The good news is the problem can be fixed from an SU standpoint via targeted development in youth programs. The demographics are there (Rust Belt states can not say the same thing.) The bad news is Rome wasn't built in a day.
 
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cmr27 said:
Here's a counter-intuitive. Statistically, NYS produces more athletes and offers more high school sports than Florida. Total number of high school football programs in Florida: 556 with 40k kids playing on an average team size of 73 Total number of high school football programs in New York: 572 with 35k kids playing on an average team size of 62 (more PT, baby!) It's not the weather... Total athletes (boys only): NY at 215k versus Fla at 154k. Significantly more kids play high school tennis in NYS. More kids play golf. Same holds for track and field OUTDOOR participation. Throw in winter sports and football has huge competition (plus, NYS kids are tougher if they are willing to brave the Feb. cold to run track and field outdoors). And so it goes... Number of kids playing lax in Florida: 5,680... Number of kids playing lax in NYS: 16,169... Number of kids playing soccer in Florida: 15,769... Number of kids playing soccer in NYS: 23,669 The answer is partly in competition for a kid's time. Kids in NYS have more choices. Other programs get funded whereas in Florida, "there ain't much to do" besides football. The good news is the problem can be fixed from an SU standpoint via targeted development in youth programs. The demographics are there (Rust Belt states can not say the same thing.) The bad news is Rome wasn't built in a day.
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Fantastic data!

We probably shouldn't overlook the fact that people in NY care a lot more about education.
 

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