3 Arguments for Shafer

[Finwad32]

I was pretty vocal about Marrone. Still am. But the light bulb turned on and lo and behold, they figured out how to make the most of what they had. And that did change things.

Sometimes it takes that much time.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Sometimes it takes that much time.

Considering Shafer was around the first time, it really doesn't have to.

 

[Finwad32]

Considering Shafer was around the first time, it really doesn't have to.

I was speaking in generalities, but specifically, considering an entire new staff and system was put into place, I don't 100% agree. There was way too much turnover imo. Doesn't mean there's no validity to what you're saying either though.

 

[Alsacs]

Sometimes it takes that much time.

How long does it take to learn game management during games? SS is a good man but the guy is in his third year still making mistakes with clock management and squib kicking. He is a good man but after all the games you are what you are.

 

[Chip]

Chip?

I need to patent all my material. And orientation.

 

[Finwad32]

How long does it take to learn game management during games? SS is a good man but the guy is in his third year still making mistakes with clock management and squib kicking. He is a good man but after all the games you are what you are.

There have been a couple mistakes, but I believe the number of true mistakes is being greatly exaggerated. If his decision doesn't jive with someone's philosophy then it's a "mistake".

 

[Scooch]

I think it was 8 from the end of 2011 to the middle of 2012. I know when we started 2012 2-4, the detractors were out in full force.

7 in a row (last 5 of 2011, first 2 of 2012) and 9 of 11 (started 2012 2-4). We were 4-5 in 2012 before we won our last 4. That's really what people remember. That was the high water mark of SU football over the past 14 years... 4 straight wins in 2012.

People talk about 2012 like we won the national title. We had a very good 4 games after a crummy start.

Ugh.

 

[Alsacs]

There have been a couple mistakes, but I believe the number of true mistakes is being greatly exaggerated. If his decision doesn't jive with someone's philosophy then it's a "mistake".

Listen I concede you probably know more about FB than me. I believe you are a HS coach or former coach. However, I thought the hire was rushed at the time 3 years ago and wasn't a fan. I think the guy is in over his head and got a job he wouldn't have gotten had DM not left when he left which was late in coaching carousel.

I want to win games. I don't think we will a lot of games with SS thus I make the move now after this year so we can get the optimism.

Next year w/SS will be depressing as everyone will be excited for the season to start but expectations will be a lot higher with SS than a new coach and unless we expect 7 wins next year SS won't be here long term.

 

[rrlbees]

There have been a couple mistakes, but I believe the number of true mistakes is being greatly exaggerated. If his decision doesn't jive with someone's philosophy then it's a "mistake".

That's what stumps me too. I know people are up in arms about decisions the last 2 games, but in his first two seasons and early this year were people complaining about these things? I don't recall much if any. Did he all of a sudden get stupid the last 2 games?

 

[Finwad32]

Listen I concede you probably know more about FB than me. I believe you are a HS coach or former coach. However, I thought the hire was rushed at the time 3 years ago and wasn't a fan. I think the guy is in over his head and got a job he wouldn't have gotten had DM not left when he left which was late in coaching carousel.

I want to win games. I don't think we will a lot of games with SS thus I make the move now after this year so we can get the optimism.

Next year w/SS will be depressing as everyone will be excited for the season to start but expectations will be a lot higher with SS than a new coach and unless we expect 7 wins next year SS won't be here long term.

Nothing to concede. I respect pretty much everyone's opinion here, certainly including yours. I understand what you're saying, and understand why a lot of people feel that way. I also know that there's typically much more going on behind the scenes that nobody would ever know that contributes to a lot of the decisions.

Behind closed doors, I'm sure the coaches second guess their own decisions as much as anyone else. That being said, I've been fortunate enough to sit in rooms with coaches of all levels, including multiple current NFL Head Coaches and I know that HCSS has a very good grasp on the game as well as his staff.

All I try to do is add perspective to the discussions and try to be as objective as possible.

 

[Finwad32]

That's what stumps me too. I know people are up in arms about decisions the last 2 games, but in his first two seasons and early this year were people complaining about these things? I don't recall much if any. Did he all of a sudden get stupid the last 2 games?

That's the one thing I can't stand, you don't question a guys intelligence because you don't agree with his decisions. It seems like everyone is so frustrated that they look for the smallest thing to jump on and criticize to the max. HCSS is far from an idiot. Unconventional in some respects, but certainly not of below average intelligence.

I think he's also made some really strong calls that don't get the credit they deserve because we're on the wrong end of the scoreboard.

 

[DoctorBombay]

He'll have next year to do something. If not, then he needs to go. :noidea:

 

[phil77]

My biggest thing with the pro Shafer crowd is when they list the reason he should stay they never say that is he a good coach. His job is to be a good football coach first and foremost.

No one said Shafer is a bad guy. By most accounts everyone loves him and loves the way he interacts with the community.

One states are recruiting is on the upswing. Is that because of the IPF and the ACC or is it because Shafer? Probably more of a combo of all that. But while out recruiting is on the upswing we still are at the bottom of the ACC In recruiting.

Great guy. Good coordinator.

The AD needs to pump blood back into this program get a new coach that put an entertain uptempo high powered offense on the field and let's build this program back to the level we expect.

 

[Briancuse]

Not really.

Miami at their best was #1 and really really good.

But FSU/Clemson > Miami/VaTech

Plus we play Pitt, BC annually still and I'm not sure they were any better or any worse on average that they are now.

Wake/NC State > Rutgers/Temple

Louisville = WVU

But then there is the other division with GTech, VaTech, Miami, Duke, UVa and UNC that we get to see once a year.

Some of those Miami teams were all time great teams, I wouldn't put either Fsu or Clemson up against Miami, when we had to play them. Va tech was also very good, that might be a wash, but Pitt and BC were better programs back then, and West Virginia was good too.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I need to patent all my material. And orientation.

That could really go either way for you.

 

[DoctorBombay]

My biggest thing with the pro Shafer crowd is when they list the reason he should stay they never say that is he a good coach. His job is to be a good football coach first and foremost.

No one said Shafer is a bad guy. By most accounts everyone loves him and loves the way he interacts with the community.

One states are recruiting is on the upswing. Is that because of the IPF and the ACC or is it because Shafer? Probably more of a combo of all that. But while out recruiting is on the upswing we still are at the bottom of the ACC In recruiting.

Great guy. Good coordinator.

The AD needs to pump blood back into this program get a new coach that put an entertain uptempo high powered offense on the field and let's build this program back to the level we expect.

Personally, I think the jury is still out and one more year will answer any remaining questions, for better or worse.
If he comes back next year and we see marked improvement, then it'll be worth it. Either way we'll know for sure whether he's the future or not.

 

[AlaskaSU]

You know what really bothers me. We have seen so many glimpses with Dungey where we can score really quickly but then we go conservative where Lester & Shafer start calling plays that stalls the offense especially multiple run plays when the passing game is working. Because what - we have to establish the run? That's not what these high octane offenses do. It's like they want to score a TD on EVERY play.

I know I'm over simplifying things but that's my take. I go back to that time out at FSU before the half its just so illogical to me. The coach from BG, Baylor etc wouldn't have called a time out until the 3rd down if they didn't score by then. You just know that watching those teams play. Nuff said.

Not defending the bad decisions but it easy to be an armchair 1/4 back and call for an all passing game if you forget about our D. We have the make the most out of each possession because the other team is going to score on most of their possessions. Do you really think that we have a defense that would allow our offense to gamble?

Our problem is not coaching. A few bone headed calls are not the reason for our losses. We need more talent and more experience. We are facing teams that are bigger and faster. So sad to see sweeps by other teams where our guys are just too slow. X's and O's are not going to overcome physical discrepancies. The most important thing that a coaching staff does is recruiting. Given our lousy reputation, our recruiting is better than expected.

As to the third leg (talent and strategy being the other two) team spirit, any coach will tell you that there is no dissent on a winning team. We should be thankful that we still have the team spirit that we have given our sorrowful record.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Not defending the bad decisions but it easy to be an armchair 1/4 back and call for an all passing game if you forget about our D. We have the make the most out of each possession because the other team is going to score on most of their possessions. Do you really think that we have a defense that would allow our offense to gamble?

Our problem is not coaching. A few bone headed calls are not the reason for our losses. We need more talent and more experience. We are facing teams that are bigger and faster. So sad to see sweeps by other teams where our guys are just too slow. X's and O's are not going to overcome physical discrepancies. The most important thing that a coaching staff does is recruiting. Given our lousy reputation, our recruiting is better than expected.

As to the third leg (talent and strategy being the other two) team spirit, any coach will tell you that there is no dissent on a winning team. We should be thankful that we still have the team spirit that we have given our sorrowful record.

If you believe your defense won't ever stop anyone, your only chance is if your offense scores every time.

 

[Orijinal]

Guys, guys, guys. How many times does it have to be said. Shafer DID NOT CALL for the squib kick. The ball was not hit properly. And yes, he took a time out. They got the score the next play, though, right? Must have said something right during the time out. And by the way, much better to take a time out on 2nd and goal then rush a play on that down, not convert points, then take a time out on 3rd and goal and only have one shot at the end zone.

 

[TheCusian]

Some of those Miami teams were all time great teams, I wouldn't put either Fsu or Clemson up against Miami, when we had to play them. Va tech was also very good, that might be a wash, but Pitt and BC were better programs back then, and West Virginia was good too.

No. Pitt and BC were up and down just like they are now.

FSU won the first playoff and had tons of NFL talent. Still do. They should be considered in the same or close light.

Clemson is a decent comp to VaTech with Vick.

But their are more decent teams in the middle of the ACC, and the bottom is better.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Guys, guys, guys. How many times does it have to be said. Shafer DID NOT CALL for the squib kick. The ball was not hit properly. And yes, he took a time out. They got the score the next play, though, right? Must have said something right during the time out. And by the way, much better to take a time out on 2nd and goal then rush a play on that down, not convert points, then take a time out on 3rd and goal and only have one shot at the end zone.

There was no need to rush. There was close to a minute left and we don't go up-tempo on offense, so you can take time in the huddle, run the play and then call the time out if you don't get in. It's possible to manage the clock in a way that the 4th down play becomes the final play of the half.

In the UVA game, there was no reason not to call a time-out after they failed on 3rd down and were going to kick to tie. We gave up the opportunity for a kick return, and allowing the offense a chance to win the game before OT.

The issue in all this is that everyone agrees our offense is far ahead of our defense this year, yet Shafer and the staff are making calls which indicate the opposite. You can complain about the defense giving up drives, but when our staff is passing up opportunities to help them out, that is open for criticism. We all praised the aggressiveness against LSU, but where has that been since that time?

 

[Crusty]

It kills me how quickly everybody forgets how scrutinized DM's game day calls were. He has a stronger than average final season, now we're in the midst of a year and a half struggle and he's remembered in this tremendous light.

Don't get me wrong, I respect DM a ton and always defended him. Doesn't change the fact of how short people's memories are. At the end of year 3 and beginning of year 4, the "dump Doug" movement was almost as strong as right now for SS.

AND for almost his entire tenure there were dump Hackett threads and then some of the same people wanted him to be the head coach.

Marrone was a conservative NFL type coach. He made some bonehead decisions in his first three years but with a better team his options got better and so did his game management. To some extent the two go together.

 

[elimunelson]

Nobody screwed DM on his contract nor the IPF.

Right. DM left for greener pastures. Was leaving if we built the Burj on campus for SU football.

Shafer, to me, just needs to win a game that makes everyone look back and say, "wow we figured out a way to win one that we had no business winning". It could be this weekend. That is a snowball effect. He has shown zero ability so far to coach up.

 

[Crusty]

I think it was 8 from the end of 2011 to the middle of 2012. I know when we started 2012 2-4, the detractors were out in full force.

I think bees was referring to BCS games only.

 

[Crusty]

7 in a row (last 5 of 2011, first 2 of 2012) and 9 of 11 (started 2012 2-4). We were 4-5 in 2012 before we won our last 4. That's really what people remember. That was the high water mark of SU football over the past 14 years... 4 straight wins in 2012.

People talk about 2012 like we won the national title. We had a very good 4 games after a crummy start.

Ugh.

Pugh missed the first four games as I remember and if some unlucky plays that went the other way we might have had 10 wins. We were so close it was tantalizing.