All-time shooting guards... who's ahead of D. Wade?

[Opus]

Granted I do not watch the NBA anymore so I can't comment on modern day players. That being said, if not for chronic knee problems I believe Sidney Moncrief would easily make the top ten list for his all around game. As it is, he should at least be mentioned.

 

[Eric15]

that's not Lebron

My bad. I always classified Oscar as a point guard, but it looks like he was a combo guard.

 

[Alsacs]

Oscar most certainly was a shooting guard, just ask his peers. and using win shares, which normalizes for the state of the association, only Jordan was better on a year to year basis.

Finally, everything you say to diminish Oscar also applies to West . . . West, of course, has one distinct advantage

West was a better defender and had the nickname Mr. Clutch for a reason.

 

[br801]

Oscar is not a SG and his numbers are so overrated. Go read Simmons books when Oscar averaged his triple double shooting percentages were in the low 40's and high 30's and possessions were way up. Also, their weren't many athletes in the NBA as athletic as Oscar. I think he is a great number, but never won a title in his prime and road Kareem to his only ring. Oscar is not the greatest "shooting" guard of all-time. Clyde Frasier was more of a SG than Oscar.

Yes, shooting percentages were a bit lower when Robertson was in his prime. And he sucked so badly that he had a FG% of .485 for his career during a time when the league was shooting anywhere between 41% and 46%.

 

[Orangello]

Granted I do not watch the NBA anymore so I can't comment on modern day players. That being said, if not for chronic knee problems I believe Sidney Moncrief would easily make the top ten list for his all around game. As it is, he should at least be mentioned.

Ditto for Pistol Pete Maravich

 

[br801]

West was a better defender and had the nickname Mr. Clutch for a reason.

West had a great all-around game, but Robertson also did everything well on both ends of the court. I call it a dead heat between the two of them.

 

[Knicks411]

West had a great all-around game, but Robertson also did everything well on both ends of the court. I call it a dead heat between the two of them.

This is from a guy who wasn't born when either guy played, but Oscar was considered sort of a douche, and West was pretty beloved by his teammates; thoughts for using that as a potential tie breaker?

 

[moqui]

West had the nickname Mr. Clutch for a reason.

must be that 1-9 record in Finals appearances

but I am not going to run down West, just saying that it is ludicrous to try and diminsh Oscar's numbers while giving credit to West's. One reason for such a double standard leaps immediately to mind . . .

 

[br801]

This is from a guy who wasn't born when either guy played, but Oscar was considered sort of a douche, and West was pretty beloved by his teammates; thoughts for using that as a potential tie breaker?

I wouldn't call Oscar a douche. He was (and is) a proud man, and never seemed very comfortable with the media. Like many black players of his time, he encountered a significant amount of racism, and that likely shaped his personality.

 

[Knicks411]

must be that 1-9 record in Finals appearances

but I am not going to run down West, just saying that it is ludicrous to try and diminsh Oscar's numbers while giving credit to West's. One reason for such a double standard leaps immediately to mind . . .

I don't think its cause Oscar was black.

I think the two guys are really close: i'd give West the edge for his D. But you are right, they played during the same era, whatever air you take out of Oscar's numbers you'd need to do the same for West.

On the douche comment; I've read quotes from a few players who didn't like playing with him. Obviously that's just a few guys. I'm only bringing it up because the two guys are so close.

 

[moqui]

I don't think its cause Oscar was black

I don't think so either, but I think the fact that West is white creates an identification phenomenon, however unconscious. How else can you explain the immediate objection to Oscar's stats after a universal acceptance of West?

 

[Knicks411]

I don't think so either, but I think the fact that West is white creates an identification phenomenon, however unconscious. How else can you explain the immediate objection to Oscar's stats after a universal acceptance of West?

Maybe, as I said, I agree that you need to take both of their numbers down a notch. But I can't speak for anyone else

 

[cuseinseattle]

I really don't like Wade so I would probably put The Iceman and Drexler ahead of him just because but when you look at his numbers he is probably #4. The drop off from the first 3 is pretty huge though. It's like comparing the best SS of all time in baseball. Honus Wagner and then...who knows. Ripkin, Jeter I guess. Robin Yout, A-Rod? They both played half their time at SS. Sorry for changing the subject.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think so either, but I think the fact that West is white creates an identification phenomenon, however unconscious. How else can you explain the immediate objection to Oscar's stats after a universal acceptance of West?

I don't think its cause Oscar was black.

I think the two guys are really close: i'd give West the edge for his D. But you are right, they played during the same era, whatever air you take out of Oscar's numbers you'd need to do the same for West.

On the douche comment; I've read quotes from a few players who didn't like playing with him. Obviously that's just a few guys. I'm only bringing it up because the two guys are so close.

Of Oscar and West which retirement ceremony did Bill Russell attend on his own dime and say "Blank, you are, in every sense of the word, truly a champion… If I could have one wish granted, it would be that you would always be happy."

West was a better teammate than Oscar there is no doubt about and that should be the tiebreaker.

 

[mark79]

Much as I disliked him as a knicks fan, Reggie Miller belongs in the discussion.
Dude could flat out shoot and he was a very tough competitor.

 

[Alsacs]

Much as I disliked him as a knicks fan, Reggie Miller belongs in the discussion.
Dude could flat out shoot and he was a very tough competitor.

I think Miller was a good player but he was never one of the top 10 NBA players once during his entire career. He never finished above All-NBA 3rd team and only two times in his career. Him and Ray Allen are similar they are good HOF players, but not among the best of all-time.
IMO the top 3 are locks Jordan, Kobe, West
If you consider Oscar, and Havlicek SGs they would round out the top 5. If you don't consider them SG then Wade IMO gets there.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah Reggie was a good player for a long time but he was never an elite guy

 

[Gabjon]

Yeah that was my first thought as well, it seemed really shallow.



He's a career 49% shooter. Yeah he can't shoot from deep, but he doesn't really do it much. His TO numbers are kionda high, but when you adjust for the fact that he has massive usage rates, I don't think they are too bad. I would definitely have Wade above most of the guys on your list.

Look at the 2010 Heat. This is their #2-8 rotation, in terms of min played. Michael Beasley, Udonis Haslem, Quentin Richardson, Jermaine O'Neal, Mario Chalmers, Carlos Arroyo, and Dorrell Wright. Wade dragged that team to 47 wins.

Frazier and Monroe I guess were combo guys, and were way before my time, but i don't think either are really 2 guards, no?

They are before my time too but they was big guards who scored a lot

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[MCC]

Oscar is not a SG and his numbers are so overrated. Go read Simmons books when Oscar averaged his triple double shooting percentages were in the low 40's and high 30's and possessions were way up. Also, their weren't many athletes in the NBA as athletic as Oscar. I think he is a great number, but never won a title in his prime and road Kareem to his only ring. Oscar is not the greatest "shooting" guard of all-time. Clyde Frasier was more of a SG than Oscar.

I concur with much of your assessment but positioning Simmons as an authoritative, expert source on anything beside hackneyed phrasing robs your position of much authenticity.

 

[Knicks411]

I dunno, Simmons wrote a ridiculously long, pretty well researched book about the history of the NBA. I think he deserves some credit for that.

 

[OrangeDW]

Jordan
Kobe
West
Allen (this years in Settle and at the Bucks are vastly underrated)
Walt Frasier
Joe Dumars
Drexler
Monroe
Miller
Wade (doesn't shoot well enough and turns it over too much)


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Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars were never top 10 players in the league. Wade at his peak was top 5. He's got to be ahead of all of them.

I think Wade vs. Drexler is a good debate.

 

[Knicks411]

Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars were never top 10 players in the league. Wade at his peak was top 5. He's got to be ahead of all of them.

I think Wade vs. Drexler is a good debate.

I think Wade has peak all over Drexler; at his best I think Wade was possibly the second best player in the league. time will tell how long he can stick around as a solid player though.

 

[Gabjon]

Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars were never top 10 players in the league. Wade at his peak was top 5. He's got to be ahead of all of them.

I think Wade vs. Drexler is a good debate.

Wade was marketed more than Allen. Ray 23,000+pts, Wade only 16,000+pts and at this rate they are going to retire are the same time

 

[moqui]

I dunno, Simmons wrote a ridiculously long, pretty well researched book about the history of the NBA. I think he deserves some credit for that.

I have to plead ignorance on that - I dislike Simmons' writing style and haven't read a column in years, so there is no way I would touch that book.

I do recognize that he has a lot of knowledge about the NBA, but its not like he is the final word on anything. It's just another opinion, although an admittedly well-researched one.

And, at the end of the day, doesn't he have both West & Robertson in his very top level exclusive "pantheon" of players?

 

[OrangeDW]

Wade was marketed more than Allen. Ray 23,000+pts, Wade only 16,000+pts and at this rate they are going to retire are the same time

Ray has been in the league for 7 years longer, so I would hope he'd have more total points.

Ray was never one of the best in the game. Wade was.