...And ladies and gentlemen...

[jordoo]

Agreed but games are so goofy...some kid can go nuts from 3, we might not be able to hit the side of the barn on any given night, foul trouble...it's how I rationally (fool myself not to ) get bent on a Sweet 16 loss years later.

Understood.

 

[br801]

There is your rotation. Roberson and Patterson 6 & 7...Johnson will get looks if needed and Onokoh only when desperation sets in.

I think JB will treat it situationally; there will be games where either Patterson or Johnson (or sometimes both) will see meaningful time but the core six will remain constant.

 

[Brooky03]

Still had to win 3 more games. Odd thing about the Smart shot is no one called timeout after it went through.

I know it wasn't a sure thing, but seeing who the opponents would have been, I would have put a lot of money on us to win it all... a lot.

 

[rrlbees]

Some will tell you if Riley had played 10min a game through the conference season we might have won that one without Arinze which is laughable when you look at the rest of Riley's career. Not to mention removing the 2nd post player completely changed the offensive dynamic of that squad. Edit: Others will say MCW as a freshman would have made a big enough difference late in the season to counteract the loss of Fab. Again sort of funny when you consider the ridiculously high level of guard play we had that season between Scoop, Brandon and Dion.

That's where I would have gone with this.

 

[Henny & Coke]

That's where I would have gone with this.

See, now I think people may be getting too literal, trying to find an exact real-life situation where this may have hurt the team. But that's not necessarily my point.

My point is that when you involve more players throughout the season, you allow your team more opportunities - for a random player to "get hot" shooting, to guard against your stars fouling out of important games, etc.

For example - Michigan's 2012-13 basketball team. Look at the talent they have at the guard position:

Trey Burke (SO) - National POY candidate & 9th overall pick in 2013 NBA draft
Tim Hardaway Jr (JR) - 24th pick in 2013 NBA draft
Nik Stauskas (FR) - 8th overall pick in 2014 NBA draft
Chris LeVert (FR) - Currently a pretty good player for Michigan.

And then you have 5-11, 175 lbs Spike Albrecht (FR).

There's no way that, given the talent level of the crop of guards you see above, that JB would have given little Spike Albrecht any run at all in that 2012-13 season, right?

Well, it's a good thing Coach Beilein did. Spike averaged 8.1 mpg that year, with very minimal impact, only averaging 2.2 ppg. BUT - you bet your sweet ass that Coach Beilein was glad that he had Spike available during the NCAA Tournament that year, because he (now famously) had the hot shooting touch during the NCAA Championship game against Louisville to go:

28 mins, 6-9 FG (667%) including 4-5 3pt (800%) for 17 points

AND, would we have lost to Michigan in the Final Four without Spike's contributions that day:

4 mins, 2-2 FG (1000%) including 2-2 3pt (1000%) for 6 points

Now, if Spike doesn't get minutes during the season, does he even play during those huge games? Let alone play well? Some may call Michigan "lucky" for benefiting from such a random performance from a FR reserve player...but I'm found of the saying "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." Coach Beilein was prepared for those moments by having Spike play during season, and the opportunity arouse.

 

[HOFCeluck]

It'd be nice if someone showed their work when they say MCW should've played more in 2012. Was he going to post up Sullinger? Or maybe he'd show just enough to declare for the draft. That'd be pretty awesome.

 

[jordoo]

See, now I think people may be getting too literal, trying to find an exact real-life situation where this may have hurt the team. But that's not necessarily my point.

My point is that when you involve more players throughout the season, you allow your team more opportunities - for a random player to "get hot" shooting, to guard against your stars fouling out of important games, etc.

For example - Michigan's 2012-13 basketball team. Look at the talent they have at the guard position:

Trey Burke (SO) - National POY candidate & 9th overall pick in 2013 NBA draft
Tim Hardaway Jr (JR) - 24th pick in 2013 NBA draft
Nik Stauskas (FR) - 8th overall pick in 2014 NBA draft
Chris LeVert (FR) - Currently a pretty good player for Michigan.

And then you have 5-11, 175 lbs Spike Albrecht (FR).

There's no way that, given the talent level of the crop of guards you see above, that JB would have given little Spike Albrecht any run at all in that 2012-13 season, right?

Well, it's a good thing Coach Beilein did. Spike averaged 8.1 mpg that year, with very minimal impact, only averaging 2.2 ppg. BUT - you bet your sweet ass that Coach Beilein was glad that he had Spike available during the NCAA Tournament that year, because he (now famously) had the hot shooting touch during the NCAA Championship game against Louisville to go:

28 mins, 6-9 FG (667%) including 4-5 3pt (800%) for 17 points

AND, would we have lost to Michigan in the Final Four without Spike's contributions that day:

4 mins, 2-2 FG (1000%) including 2-2 3pt (1000%) for 6 points

Now, if Spike doesn't get minutes during the season, does he even play during those huge games? Let alone play well? Some may call Michigan "lucky" for benefiting from such a random performance from a FR reserve player...but I'm found of the saying "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." Coach Beilein was prepared for those moments by having Spike play during season, and the opportunity arouse.

This is a good argument and as I have stated before there is really no right or wrong on this argument unless you nit pick certain situations but even then its a guess or projection. Both ways have shown success for multiple coaches. I have no issue with the short bench although I do not like playing any players 38+ minutes game after game and I wish JB would lengthen the bench minutes (not necessarily # of players) at least enough to make sure everyone gets at least 4 min of rest per game.

 

[rrlbees]

See, now I think people may be getting too literal, trying to find an exact real-life situation where this may have hurt the team. But that's not necessarily my point. My point is that when you involve more players throughout the season, you allow your team more opportunities - for a random player to "get hot" shooting, to guard against your stars fouling out of important games, etc. For example - Michigan's 2012-13 basketball team. Look at the talent they have at the guard position: Trey Burke (SO) - National POY candidate & 9th overall pick in 2013 NBA draft Tim Hardaway Jr (JR) - 24th pick in 2013 NBA draft Nik Stauskas (FR) - 8th overall pick in 2014 NBA draft Chris LeVert (FR) - Currently a pretty good player for Michigan. And then you have 5-11, 175 lbs Spike Albrecht (FR). There's no way that, given the talent level of the crop of guards you see above, that JB would have given little Spike Albrecht any run at all in that 2012-13 season, right? Well, it's a good thing Coach Beilein did. Spike averaged 8.1 mpg that year, with very minimal impact, only averaging 2.2 ppg. BUT - you bet your sweet ass that Coach Beilein was glad that he had Spike available during the NCAA Tournament that year, because he (now famously) had the hot shooting touch during the NCAA Championship game against Louisville to go: 28 mins, 6-9 FG (667%) including 4-5 3pt (800%) for 17 points AND, would we have lost to Michigan in the Final Four without Spike's contributions that day: 4 mins, 2-2 FG (1000%) including 2-2 3pt (1000%) for 6 points Now, if Spike doesn't get minutes during the season, does he even play during those huge games? Let alone play well? Some may call Michigan "lucky" for benefiting from such a random performance from a FR reserve player...but I'm found of the saying "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." Coach Beilein was prepared for those moments by having Spike play during season, and the opportunity arouse.

I was responding to IMs post that we've squandered away some NCs.

But to your point, yea Spike played a little during the season but he was also their best 3 point shooter. But he still played very little, just like BJ and Buss. BJ and Buss have sat out 2 of 12 games but in the other 10 they have played more than Spike did. In fact BJs average per game is twice Spikes. Specific to that season, Cooney was our 9th or 10th guy and he played more than Spike.

 

[Henny & Coke]

It'd be nice if someone showed their work when they say MCW should've played more in 2012. Was he going to post up Sullinger? Or maybe he'd show just enough to declare for the draft. That'd be pretty awesome.

Sure, I'll give it a go since I was one who raised the point during the season (if MCW should be getting more mins that year). It's similar to my example above about Michigan having 2 top notch guard options (Burke & Hardaway Jr), 2 more talented Frosh guard options (Stauskas & LeVert) and yet still finding minutes during the season to give to a 5-11 Freshman guard in Spike Albrecht. If Coach Beilein is not getting Spike regular minutes that season, nobody would have said a word, nobody would have challenged him at all...but then maybe Michigan loses to Syracuse in that Final Four game because there's no Spike Albrecht option to go to for the 4 mins he played, and ended up hitting 2 dagger 3pt shots against us. Instead, maybe those 4 mins go to Nic Stauskas instead, who played 18 mins, but was 0-5 from the field for 0 points. And maybe Stauskas continues to shoot poorly, missed those 2 shots, and it's Syracuse going to the National Championship game?

So now, insert Michael Carter-Williams for Spike Albrecht. MCW got only 269 mins all year that year, and didn't play at all after the 2nd UCONN game in regular season. (Compared to 317 mins Spike Albrecht received in that 2011-12 season.) A 6-6, McDonalds AA guard who, when given some playing time earlier in season had shown he had potential, can't get any run at all? Just cause we have Scoop, Triche & Dion? Come on! And guess what happened...foul trouble for sure played a part in our loss to Ohio State, with Dion fouling out, as well as Southerland. Dion finished his night 2-8 from the field with 2 turnovers and 9 points. How do we know MCW wouldn't have been on a torrid hot streak, and, if subbed for Dion early, JB could see that and ride the hot hand? We'll never know.

By the way, some of the stats MCW put up during his Fresh year, showing glimpses of his potential:

vs George Washington: 18 mins, 2-6 FG, 3 Rebs, 8 Asts, 1 Block, 0 TOs, 5 pts
vs St. Johns: 17 mins, 5-6 FG, 4 Rebs, 3 Asts, 1 TO, 13 pts
vs UCONN: 7 mins, 1-1 FG, 1 Reb, 2 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 3 pts
vs UCONN: 8 mins, 0-1 FG, 1 Reb, 4 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 0 pts

 

[realorange]

Know it's beating a dead horse but...to play only 7 guys in an 18 point win in December over Long Beach State (including Mike G & Trevor both playing the entire games) is short-sighted & does not help this team in the long run, IMO.

Wish BJ & Chino would have gotten into the game, and also wish Roberson played more than 19 mins. I just don't see how playing Trevor for the entire game & not getting BJ any playing time at all is a good strategy. At this point, the potential for improvement in his game due to game experience for Trevor has to be minimal at best...while BJ would theoretically have the opportunity to grow as a player with, say, 5-10 mins of game experience.

And this would help in the long term in the instance when Trevor is having a poor shooting night & we would like to have a legit option in BJ/Patterson to replace him with to see if one of them was having a better shooting night. But I know JB obviously disagrees, and thus, this will not change.

As I said in another thread, I think JB wanted to give Joseph as much time on the floor as possible and do it with the normal players he'd be with. Therefore, no BJ, Buss or Chino. They'll play against Cornell----Maybe!

 

[rrlbees]

Sure, I'll give it a go since I was one who raised the point during the season (if MCW should be getting more mins that year). It's similar to my example above about Michigan having 2 top notch guard options (Burke & Hardaway Jr), 2 more talented Frosh guard options (Stauskas & LeVert) and yet still finding minutes during the season to give to a 5-11 Freshman guard in Spike Albrecht. If Coach Beilein is not getting Spike regular minutes that season, nobody would have said a word, nobody would have challenged him at all...but then maybe Michigan loses to Syracuse in that Final Four game because there's no Spike Albrecht option to go to for the 4 mins he played, and ended up hitting 2 dagger 3pt shots against us. Instead, maybe those 4 mins go to Nic Stauskas instead, who played 18 mins, but was 0-5 from the field for 0 points. And maybe Stauskas continues to shoot poorly, missed those 2 shots, and it's Syracuse going to the National Championship game? So now, insert Michael Carter-Williams for Spike Albrecht. MCW got only 269 mins all year that year, and didn't play at all after the 2nd UCONN game in regular season. (Compared to 317 mins Spike Albrecht received in that 2011-12 season.) A 6-6, McDonalds AA guard who, when given some playing time earlier in season had shown he had potential, can't get any run at all? Just cause we have Scoop, Triche & Dion? Come on! And guess what happened...foul trouble for sure played a part in our loss to Ohio State, with Dion fouling out, as well as Southerland. Dion finished his night 2-8 from the field with 2 turnovers and 9 points. How do we know MCW wouldn't have been on a torrid hot streak, and, if subbed for Dion early, JB could see that and ride the hot hand? We'll never know. By the way, some of the stats MCW put up during his Fresh year, showing glimpses of his potential: vs George Washington: 18 mins, 2-6 FG, 3 Rebs, 8 Asts, 1 Block, 0 TOs, 5 pts vs St. Johns: 17 mins, 5-6 FG, 4 Rebs, 3 Asts, 1 TO, 13 pts vs UCONN: 7 mins, 1-1 FG, 1 Reb, 2 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 3 pts vs UCONN: 8 mins, 0-1 FG, 1 Reb, 4 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 0 pts

Spikes extra 48 mins across 30+ games I don't think is a huge game changer. Like I said in another thread, Spike was Michigan's best 3 point shooter so had a specific role. He shot over 50%. And in that specific year, our 9th man played more than Spike who was their 8th man.

 

[Henny & Coke]

I was responding to IMs post that we've squandered away some NCs.

But to your point, yea Spike played a little during the season but he was also their best 3 point shooter. But he still played very little, just like BJ and Buss. BJ and Buss have sat out 2 of 12 games but in the other 10 they have played more than Spike did. In fact BJs average per game is twice Spikes. Specific to that season, Cooney was our 9th or 10th guy and he played more than Spike.

Spike ended up as statistically their best 3pt shooter, but only because of his play in the NCAA Tournament, where he went an unreal 9-10 (900%) from 3. Before then, he was at 391%, which would have made Stauskas their best 3pt shooter, since he had a 440% 3PT.

And yes, BJ and Patterson are playing mins now...but do you expect that to continue when we get into ACC play? Do you expect that to continue if we make the NCAA Tournament? I sure as hell don't, given JB's track record.

 

[Henny & Coke]

Spikes extra 48 mins across 30+ games I don't think is a huge game changer. Like I said in another thread, Spike was Michigan's best 3 point shooter so had a specific role. He shot over 50%. And in that specific year, our 9th man played more than Spike who was their 8th man.

I agree, the actual difference in minutes is not what's important - it's that Spike continued to get those minutes even in big game situations. His play early on may have well served him to not get overwhelmed in the big moments, but Coach B also had the wisdom to stick with this player, even when the games were more and more important. And I'm saying he was rewarded for that.

 

[longtimefan]

Sure, I'll give it a go since I was one who raised the point during the season (if MCW should be getting more mins that year). It's similar to my example above about Michigan having 2 top notch guard options (Burke & Hardaway Jr), 2 more talented Frosh guard options (Stauskas & LeVert) and yet still finding minutes during the season to give to a 5-11 Freshman guard in Spike Albrecht. If Coach Beilein is not getting Spike regular minutes that season, nobody would have said a word, nobody would have challenged him at all...but then maybe Michigan loses to Syracuse in that Final Four game because there's no Spike Albrecht option to go to for the 4 mins he played, and ended up hitting 2 dagger 3pt shots against us. Instead, maybe those 4 mins go to Nic Stauskas instead, who played 18 mins, but was 0-5 from the field for 0 points. And maybe Stauskas continues to shoot poorly, missed those 2 shots, and it's Syracuse going to the National Championship game?

So now, insert Michael Carter-Williams for Spike Albrecht. MCW got only 269 mins all year that year, and didn't play at all after the 2nd UCONN game in regular season. (Compared to 317 mins Spike Albrecht received in that 2011-12 season.) A 6-6, McDonalds AA guard who, when given some playing time earlier in season had shown he had potential, can't get any run at all? Just cause we have Scoop, Triche & Dion? Come on! And guess what happened...foul trouble for sure played a part in our loss to Ohio State, with Dion fouling out, as well as Southerland. Dion finished his night 2-8 from the field with 2 turnovers and 9 points. How do we know MCW wouldn't have been on a torrid hot streak, and, if subbed for Dion early, JB could see that and ride the hot hand? We'll never know.

By the way, some of the stats MCW put up during his Fresh year, showing glimpses of his potential:

vs George Washington: 18 mins, 2-6 FG, 3 Rebs, 8 Asts, 1 Block, 0 TOs, 5 pts

vs St. Johns: 17 mins, 5-6 FG, 4 Rebs, 3 Asts, 1 TO, 13 pts
vs UCONN: 7 mins, 1-1 FG, 1 Reb, 2 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 3 pts
vs UCONN: 8 mins, 0-1 FG, 1 Reb, 4 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 0 pts

MCW and "torrid hot streak" should never be in the same sentence. MCW has a lot going for him, but a good shooter he is not. He wasn't at SU, and he isn't in the NBA.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Sure, I'll give it a go since I was one who raised the point during the season (if MCW should be getting more mins that year). It's similar to my example above about Michigan having 2 top notch guard options (Burke & Hardaway Jr), 2 more talented Frosh guard options (Stauskas & LeVert) and yet still finding minutes during the season to give to a 5-11 Freshman guard in Spike Albrecht. If Coach Beilein is not getting Spike regular minutes that season, nobody would have said a word, nobody would have challenged him at all...but then maybe Michigan loses to Syracuse in that Final Four game because there's no Spike Albrecht option to go to for the 4 mins he played, and ended up hitting 2 dagger 3pt shots against us. Instead, maybe those 4 mins go to Nic Stauskas instead, who played 18 mins, but was 0-5 from the field for 0 points. And maybe Stauskas continues to shoot poorly, missed those 2 shots, and it's Syracuse going to the National Championship game?

So now, insert Michael Carter-Williams for Spike Albrecht. MCW got only 269 mins all year that year, and didn't play at all after the 2nd UCONN game in regular season. (Compared to 317 mins Spike Albrecht received in that 2011-12 season.) A 6-6, McDonalds AA guard who, when given some playing time earlier in season had shown he had potential, can't get any run at all? Just cause we have Scoop, Triche & Dion? Come on! And guess what happened...foul trouble for sure played a part in our loss to Ohio State, with Dion fouling out, as well as Southerland. Dion finished his night 2-8 from the field with 2 turnovers and 9 points. How do we know MCW wouldn't have been on a torrid hot streak, and, if subbed for Dion early, JB could see that and ride the hot hand? We'll never know.

By the way, some of the stats MCW put up during his Fresh year, showing glimpses of his potential:

vs George Washington: 18 mins, 2-6 FG, 3 Rebs, 8 Asts, 1 Block, 0 TOs, 5 pts
vs St. Johns: 17 mins, 5-6 FG, 4 Rebs, 3 Asts, 1 TO, 13 pts
vs UCONN: 7 mins, 1-1 FG, 1 Reb, 2 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 3 pts
vs UCONN: 8 mins, 0-1 FG, 1 Reb, 4 Asts, 1 Steal, 0 TOs, 0 pts

MCW was going to help us beat Ohio State? Triche and Scoop were our two best players that day. It makes no sense. He wasn't getting in over them. We lost because our fourth year senior stunk, our lottery pick stunk and we couldn't control the paint and the fouls in the game called were ridiculous. MCW was the 10th guy on that team, and if not mistaken he made a lot of bonehead plays early in the year, that lead to him not receiving time.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320840183

 

[RF2044]

MCW was going to help us beat Ohio State? Triche and Scoop were our two best players that day. It makes no sense. He wasn't getting in over them. We lost because our fourth year senior stunk, our lottery pick stunk and we couldn't control the paint and the fouls in the game called were ridiculous. MCW was the 10th guy on that team, and if not mistaken he made a lot of bonehead plays early in the year, that lead to him not receiving time.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=320840183

Ugh...

My wife [and in-laws] are Ohio State grads / die hard fans, and this game has driven a wedge between us--I"m going to hold that grudge for a LONG time.

42 free throws to 25. Brutal.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I can't think of a single NC we let slip away because someone didn't play more in the regular season.

I was more addressing the blanket assertion that Boeheim is always right because he has won so many games. Coaches make mistakes. They're human. It's fair to second guess them, especially when it's based on years of following the team.

 

[Shenexon]

I wasn't alive for the Smart shot, so the loss of Onuaku, resulting in the Butler loss is the closest I've felt to having a National Championship ripped from our hands. At least with the Smart shot, it was a matter of our best effort vs. the opponent's best effort and they just happended to make a basket at the right time. Again, not having lived through it, I can handle that. It's hard to cope with losing to a team in the Tourney that you would have beaten 8/10 times at full strength. This is what gets me the most angry at arguments about Syracuse underperforming in the NCAAT. There is some validity to the argument, but Boeheim could very easily be sitting pretty with 3 Titles under his belt.

The Smart shot was tough largely because we blew it at the end. His shot would have been meaningless if we could have made free throws. We lost that game by our play at the end. The loss of Onuaku was catastrophic right at the moment we were playing our way into contention for the national championship with perhaps our best team ever. Fate treated us poorly which feels worse than losing through failure to play well in the clutch.

 

[CusefanATL]

There is your rotation. Roberson and Patterson 6 & 7...Johnson will get looks if needed and Onokoh only when desperation sets in.

may be too early to call that. Ron didnt play a minute vs Nova or La tech.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Yeah I don't care if he's 1-10...I'm sticking with the guy who's three months away from going top five in the NBA draft.

 

[br801]

MCW was the 10th guy on that team, and if not mistaken he made a lot of bonehead plays early in the year, that lead to him not receiving time.

And he wasn't exactly the most coachable kid in college basketball that year either. But he learned a lot from his freshman experience, much as Dion had previously, and they both got where they wanted to go.

 

[rrlbees]

I was more addressing the blanket assertion that Boeheim is always right because he has won so many games. Coaches make mistakes. They're human. It's fair to second guess them, especially when it's based on years of following the team.

They make mistakes of a tactical nature. But to question strategic things that have resulted in the record he has is hard to justify.

 

[HOFCeluck]

They make mistakes of a tactical nature. But to question strategic things that have resulted in the record he has is hard to justify.

One final four every ten years is pretty mediocre for an elite coach at aa top ten program.

 

[longtimefan]

One final four every ten years is pretty mediocre for an elite coach at aa top ten program.

I would suggest that SU was not a top 10 program for most of the first 25 years that JB was head coach.

 

[Cheriehoop]

One final four every ten years is pretty mediocre for an elite coach at aa top ten program.

Only 19 coaches since 1940 have had 4 or more Final Fours (Calipari had 2 of his 5 vacated during his 26 years being a head coach) which includes JB. Thirteen of these 19 coaches no longer coach.