Carmelo Question

[CPAMan]

So, I'm not a big basketball fan really(in fact I've been indifferent to the NBA since the end of the Jordan Bulls), but with respect to Carmelo Anthony I keep hearing on sports talk radio, ESPN, etc(all of which suck when not football season) that he's essentially a one-dimensional player-great scorer, but no defense, no team game, just give him the ball and let him score. Colin Cowherd this morning compared him to Domick Wilkins and George Gervin(both before my time) but I get the point.

Would u Syracuse fans say this is an accurate portrayal of Carmelo? And, what was his team game like a SU? The end result speaks for itself, but did he play D, or did he just score at will over overmatched college kids? I remember back in 2003 people actually were debating whether the Cavs should actually take him over Lebron-and as much as I(and 99% of the rest of the planet) hates Lebron u gotta admit it's foolish looking back

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Just thinking about this last night...

It's unfortunate that Carmelo had to come into the league in the same draft class as Lebron. With similar skills, and build. With similar scoring capacity. There are too many comparisons between them, despite the fact that they really have different roles.

What i never seem to hear is that Dirk Nowitsky doesn't play defense*. That Steve Nash doesn't defend. Those guys are acclaimed for what they DO do [heh]. Mike Miller. Danny Granger. Rudy Gay... Those guys aren't considered one-dimensional, somehow. Maybe it's because we occasionally are teased by Melo's potential as a defender. But, really, there are a very small number of all-star forwards who can put up prolific scoring numbers and who are also 'lockdown' defenders. Carmelo just isn't one of them. It shouldn't be as significant a 'knock' as has been attached to him.

I remember the first college game for Carmelo. Against Memphis, at Madison Square Garden. I don't think any of us knew what we were in store for. Melo caught a pass, in the corner. He faked a two-handed pass over the defender's head. The guy was bewildered. Carmelo stepped back and popped a three. I think i said aloud, "oh $h1t."

*Heck, in the Thunder win over the Mavs yesterday, Dirk wasn't even in the game on the last defensive stand. A 'liability?' No one mentioned it.

 

[Knicks411]

I remember back in 2003 people actually were debating whether the Cavs should actually take him over Lebron-and as much as I(and 99% of the rest of the planet) hates Lebron u gotta admit it's foolish looking back

I think the only people debating that were on this message board.

What i never seem to hear is that Dirk Nowitsky doesn't play defense. That Steve Nash doesn't defend. Those guys are acclaimed for what the DO do [heh].

Really? i have definitely heard that knock on both of them, especially Nash.

 

[RandygoCuse]

I think he is a better rebounder than he gets credit for...He's not a good defender. I do think he gets unfairly labeled as selfish. I don't see him as trying to keep the ball from his teammates. He simply isn't the type of player that elevates the play of those around him. No, I wouldn't take him over LeBron, but if I had to choose one guy to take the shot at the end of the game, at this point I'd take Melo over Bron.

 

[RandygoCuse]

I think the only people debating that were on this message board.



Really? i have definitely heard that knock on both of them, especially Nash.

True, but I feel like people imply Melo doesn't try on defense, whereas Dirk and Nash simply don't have that ability. What do others think?

 

[DoctorBombay]

So, I'm not a big basketball fan really(in fact I've been indifferent to the NBA since the end of the Jordan Bulls), but with respect to Carmelo Anthony I keep hearing on sports talk radio, ESPN, etc(all of which suck when not football season) that he's essentially a one-dimensional player-great scorer, but no defense, no team game, just give him the ball and let him score. Colin Cowherd this morning compared him to Domick Wilkins and George Gervin(both before my time) but I get the point.

Would u Syracuse fans say this is an accurate portrayal of Carmelo? And, what was his team game like a SU? The end result speaks for itself, but did he play D, or did he just score at will over overmatched college kids? I remember back in 2003 people actually were debating whether the Cavs should actually take him over Lebron-and as much as I(and 99% of the rest of the planet) hates Lebron u gotta admit it's foolish looking back

Not for nothing, and I'm not accusing you of such, but I'm always wary of a new poster who gives a passive-aggressive tinged POV while seemingly asking a legit question.
As for Melo, he hasn't played great defense in his career, but he gets a worse rap than he actually deserves, IMO.
I've watched the Dirk's & Durant's of the world get passes for their defensive shortcomings, but Melo takes alot more heat because he's always judged against LBJ. He's not Lebron but he's not as bad as some make out.
And yes, in 2003 there was somewhat of a debate and although LBJ has turned out to be the best of that draft class, Melo wasn't exactly chopped liver w/ the Nuggets. They DID go to the playoffs every year he was there, in a much tougher Western Conference then what Wade or LBJ were playing in.
He's a hybrid 3-4, who is widely considered the best pure scorer in the league. Not bad.

 

[Knicks411]

True, but I feel like people imply Melo doesn't try on defense, whereas Dirk and Nash simply don't have that ability. What do others think?

I think he definitely didn't try very hard on defense in the beginning of the year, and he pretty much admitted to that. But yeah, i do hear what you are saying; there are probably higher defensive expectations for Melo than for Dirk or Nash.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I think the only people debating that were on this message board.

411- there was a debate from some quarters.
I distinctly remember on PTI, Wilborn saying he'd take Melo over LBJ.
The guy had dominated the NCAA's, and showed all-around skills like Scotty Pippen.

 

[CPAMan]

I think the only people debating that were on this message board.

No, I remember reading articles-specifically one in Sporting News. Back then, I wasn't even aware of internet message boards for sports

 

[Fireball Jr.]

as much as I(and 99% of the rest of the planet) hates Lebron u gotta admit it's foolish looking back

99 pct of the planet hates LeBron? which planet would that be? i would be hesitant to take your "hatred" and project that onto 99 pct of any planet, particularly this one.

 

[Knicks411]

I gotta say, I don't remember a whole lot of debate. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I think it would've been a pretty stupid debate, and I don't think the Cavs for a second considered anyone else.

Definitely gotta disagree that Melo flashed Scottie Pippen skills. Scottie was one of the best perimeter defenders of all time. Even if Melo was in that class (which he clearly isn't) I am not sure how he could showcase it playing zone.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

In this ESPN world, where everything is about being #1 or the best and if you aren't, then you suck is just where we are today. If Melo wins a championship, that will all go away. Dirk Nowitski was never taken seriously for a decade... he was killed for being soft and not driven. He wins a title and people move on to the next guy who hasn't won it all. Melo needs to win a few playoff series and then he will get back on the national radar as being one of the very best in the NBA. He's kind of a forgotten man right now and isn't taken seriously by a lot of people. He is seen as a one trick pony.

Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin and Derrick Rose are all on deck...if they don't win a title in the next 3 years, they will be cast off and ridiculed for sucking and not being winners.

 

[stuckinbig11]

As a scorer, there is probably nobody that can stop him; he has too many tools, too many options, both inside and out. He can be good at assists, but when he has the ball, scoring in option number one, as it should be. He can also be a very good rebounder when called upon to do so, as demonstrated over the last few weeks. Defense has always been considered his weakness, and maybe he can never be a tier-one lock-down defender, but when he puts his mind to it, he can defend quite well. Every player has his strengths and weaknesses. LeBron is most famous for choking in the clutch, but otherwise, he is a pretty good player.

 

[Knicks411]

Ha, just decided to google some stuff on the 03 draft.

"SECAUCUS, N.J. (AP) -- LeBron James won't have to go far to play in the NBA.
The Cavaliers scored perhaps the biggest victory in franchise history Thursday night, winning the lottery and the right to select James, the 18-year-old high school phenom from nearby Akron.
"We don't know who we are going to pick," Cavaliers owner Gordon Gund quipped. He later held up a Cleveland jersey with James' name embroidered on the back and his No. 23."

Like I said, there was no debate for the Cavs.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

The Cavs didnt even bring in anyone else to interview... there was no Bron/Melo debate...aside from the syracusefan.com forums

 

[phil77]

. He simply isn't the type of player that elevates the play of those around him.

Another Melo myth from the media...

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...layer-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/

As you can tell in Denver most of the players that played with him had the TS increased.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Another Melo myth from the media...

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...layer-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/

As you can tell in Denver most of the players that played with him had the TS increased.

As much as that is nice to believe...its not like Melo is the only guy impacting these players TS%. Kind of silly really. You have to consider who else they are playing with. Most of these guys TS% might have gone UP because they shot LESS with Melo around. Just sayin...

Advanced stats are not kind to Melo in general. Much like Dominique Wilkins and Glenn Robinson before him.

 

[phil77]

"Most of these guys TS% might have gone UP because they shot LESS with Melo around."

Exactly right Melo takes the pressure off of them and opens the court for them. Melo takes the tough shots when the clock winding down. Advanced stats are not kind to Melo because people totally dismiss the ones that make him look good and focus on the ones that make him look bad. Just like you did.

 

[br801]

Another Melo myth from the media...

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytime...layer-and-what-advanced-stats-miss-about-him/

As you can tell in Denver most of the players that played with him had the TS increased.

Good stuff. But be careful, some people around here frown on posters who present actual data.

 

[Knicks411]

"Most of these guys TS% might have gone UP because they shot LESS with Melo around."

Exactly right Melo takes the pressure off of them and opens the court for them. Melo takes the tough shots when the clock winding down. Advanced stats are not kind to Melo because people totally dismiss the ones that make him look good and focus on the ones that make him look bad. Just like you did.

Well, for the most part, the advanced stats don't look too kindly on Melo. I do remember that study though from a little while back, and it makes intuitive sense.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

David Silver gets kind of squashed here:

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/01/17/commenting-on-nate-silver’s-melo-effect/

 

[MikeSU02]

So, I'm not a big basketball fan really(in fact I've been indifferent to the NBA since the end of the Jordan Bulls), but with respect to Carmelo Anthony I keep hearing on sports talk radio, ESPN, etc(all of which suck when not football season) that he's essentially a one-dimensional player-great scorer, but no defense, no team game, just give him the ball and let him score. Colin Cowherd this morning compared him to Domick Wilkins and George Gervin(both before my time) but I get the point.

Would u Syracuse fans say this is an accurate portrayal of Carmelo? And, what was his team game like a SU? The end result speaks for itself, but did he play D, or did he just score at will over overmatched college kids? I remember back in 2003 people actually were debating whether the Cavs should actually take him over Lebron-and as much as I(and 99% of the rest of the planet) hates Lebron u gotta admit it's foolish looking back

I don't think it was that he never played defense or passed, it's just that his effort was very sporadic and inconsistent, which, in the NBA gets exploited very quickly.

I would say that he is much more mature now. I think he is much more aware of what he can/can't do. He is starting to really make the correct pass out of double teams and it seems like he is active on defense pretty consistently (I'm not going to call him a great defender by any means).

I would also contend that he does play a team game now. Maybe it's because he is an overall better player. Maybe it's for selfish reasons that he knows he needs help to get to a title. Either way, he appears to be playing better team ball and getting more people involved.

 

[sufandu]

So, I'm not a big basketball fan really(in fact I've been indifferent to the NBA since the end of the Jordan Bulls), but with respect to Carmelo Anthony I keep hearing on sports talk radio, ESPN, etc(all of which suck when not football season) that he's essentially a one-dimensional player-great scorer, but no defense, no team game, just give him the ball and let him score. Colin Cowherd this morning compared him to Domick Wilkins and George Gervin(both before my time) but I get the point.

I know this isn't the point, but how is Dominique Wilkins before your time and Jordan isn't, since they played at pretty much the same time?

 

[44cuse]

but if I had to choose one guy to take the shot at the end of the game, at this point I'd take Melo over Bron.

Actually, you would take Melo every time. And the numbers aren't close.

.518

That's all you need to know. The next best active player is .437 (Ray Allen).

44cuse

 

[skurey]

Carmelo is the greatest player to walk this planet. Everything he does is correct. Praise be to Melo.