From What I Saw Of Goodine

[CuseFaninVT]

Since I've been watching him coach back in the 70s. Not a knock, just a fact.

I dont believe this is true at all. Rak was always better at offense than bmk, but rak didn’t get any run until he was a senior.

 

[bpo57]

I dont believe this is true at all. Rak was always better at offense than bmk, but rak didn’t get any run until he was a senior.

When Rak was a FR he sat behind Fab Melo and understandably so. As a SOPH and JR he competed for playing time with both Coleman and BMK. In both years he had 20-30% more playing time than either Coleman or BMK.

 

[JLine]

he ran a 3 guard offense this year, too. and probably will again in 21-22 with joe, buddy & kadary. he does it a lot even if people insist on calling the one who draws the shjt end of the stick on defense a forward

Very true. Could argue that Paul Harris was another example of that, though he was stuck as the de facto forward.

 

[SUFan44]

Some offense and defense ppp from synergy.

Buddy ranks 78% in offense ppp
ranks 21% in defense ppp

Goodine ranks 23% in defense ppp
ranks 7% in offense ppp

So the numbers show buddy sucked at defense but Goodine sucked too.

Offense isn’t even debatable.

Sample size plays a role. 8 minutes per game doesn't show you squat.

 

[JLine]

Sample size plays a role. 8 minutes per game doesn't show you squat.

And yet, here we are. With it being enough for you guys to know that he should be playing over Buddy.

 

[patcuse]

Sample size plays a role. 8 minutes per game doesn't show you squat.

So if you are really bad for 8 minutes you should get more?

 

[Ghost]

Some offense and defense ppp from synergy.

Buddy ranks 78% in offense ppp
ranks 21% in defense ppp

Goodine ranks 23% in defense ppp
ranks 7% in offense ppp

So the numbers show buddy sucked at defense but Goodine sucked too.

Offense isn’t even debatable.

Can we get just the last 3rd of the season?

Per 40 minutes (Obviously all ACC games):

Buddy: 14 PPG, 2 REB, 2 AST, 2 STL, 2 TO, 29% from three, 69% FT shooter, 39% FG%

Goodine: 10 PPG, 6.5 REB, 5 AST, 1.5 STL, 1.5 TO, 27% from three, 100% FT shooter, 30% FG%

What if you're really bad for 38 MPG? Should you get more?

 

[SUFan44]

So if you are really bad for 8 minutes you should get more?

If you're really bad on one end of the floor for 35 minutes, removing all doubt, you should continue to get those minutes?

 

[SUFan44]

And yet, here we are. With it being enough for you guys to know that he should be playing over Buddy.

Buddy Boeheim should not be getting 36 minutes per game. Period. End stop. 37 mpg in conference. That's insanity.

We went 17-14 with him doing so. If Goodine plays 10 mpg, does that make our record drastically worse? Could it have been drastically worse? Doubtful.

 

[djcon57]

And yet, here we are. With it being enough for you guys to know that he should be playing over Buddy.

how many times can folks use this straw man in these threads?

very few of us are saying Goodine should have played more mins than Buddy.

 

[JLine]

Buddy Boeheim should not be getting 36 minutes per game. Period. End stop. 37 mpg in conference. That's insanity.

We went 17-14 with him doing so. If Goodine plays 10 mpg, does that make our record drastically worse? Could it have been drastically worse? Doubtful.

We could have easily lost to Wake, Pitt, BC, and VaTech, ending up with a losing season.

 

[50YRsofCuse]

We could have easily lost to Wake, Pitt, BC, and VaTech, ending up with a losing season.

And we could have beaten Clemson, Florida St, NCST and UNC (1st time) just as easy as not and wound up with a better winning record also.

 

[Ghost]

how many times can folks use this straw man in these threads?

very few of us are saying Goodine should have played more mins than Buddy.

Even I'm not saying that!

 

[orangebabe]

metrics based on whose idea on what good D is? I think the coaches know where they want the kids to be far better than random math guys.

I will give you he is a bit slow at times.

You can be in the right place in a zone and not really be near most anyone and you can be standing next to the guy with the ball and be in the totally wrong place..

if Goodine was playing better D or better O than Buddy he would have been playing more minutes, JB doesnt favor guys that dont give him a better chance to win.

Thats not to say more minutes wouldnt make some of these kids better, but this isnt football where the scout team kids play, in BBALL the 2nd team is going against the 1st team all the time. Thats why practice does make you better and how you practice matters.

This is wrong...no one, not even Michael Jordan, would play ahead of buddy on a jb coached team at this point

 

[JHarris44]

Other than BJ Johnson and mayyyybe Tony Bland, who’s transferred out and made a significant impact elsewhere? (not left for the Pros early; difft thread plz) I haven’t googled names...

And in Johnson’s case, wasn’t part of the “why” due to lack of schollies via the Fab Melo never shoulda been admitted as a student in the first place debacle?

 

[JLine]

And we could have beaten Clemson, Florida St, NCST and UNC (1st time) just as easy as not and wound up with a better winning record also.

We lost Clemson cause Marek’s phantom 5th, and Buddy had 22. No Hughes for NCST forcing JG, and Buddy to fire away. Buddy led us in scoring against UNC. So, you’re down to FSU, the best team in the ACC, to support BG winning us games over Buddy.

 

[JLine]

In the end, JB can’t win with half of you. When we had to grind our games out in the 50’s with our D, y’all were clamoring for shooters. Now that we have shooting, and need to outscore our opponents, suddenly the 2 spot on D is the most important aspect of the team.

 

[billsin01]

Even if he was given the time Buddy was given as a freshman, it might have made a difference in his development. This idea that old Wrinkley says that he couldn’t hit shots, drive to the basket, etc. is not based in reality. He averaged like 5 mpg in ACC play. That’s not enough consistent playing time to get in a groove as a player. In the games where he got more than 5 minutes, he showed he could make plays. He hit 3s, he made quick drives to the basket. He was also wearing a mask for half of ACC play, and he had a difficult time adjusting to that.

wow, a lot i have issues with here.

First, old wrinkley. I mean, the whole reason people are disappointed with the season is that the guy built an absolute rock of a program for 40 years. The tax for that may be an ugly end to the tenure. It happens. People act as if we hire any 40-year-old on the market who doesn't play zone we'll start hammering out 25 wins every year. Naive.

Second, agree that Goodine didn't get enough time to get in a groove but you saw a guy who could make plays? I mean, here are the lines for games of 7+ minutes:

First 8 games of the season: averaged 12 mpg, .286 FG%, 0 threes, 1 assist/game, 1.5 turnover/game
12/28 -- Niagara, 11 mins, 0-for-4 FG, 0-for-3 3-pt, 0 assists, 1 turnover, 2 pts
2/15 -- FSU, 7 mins, 0-for-1, 0 pts
2/19 -- Louisville, 10 mins, 1-for-3 3-pt, 3 pts., 1 assist, 2 turnovers
2/26 -- Pitt, 18 mins, 2-for-6, 1-for-3 from 3pt, 4 assists, 5 pts
2/29 -- UNC, 7 mins, 0-for-2, 0-for-1 3pt, 0 pts
3/3 -- BC, 10 mins, 1-for-3 FG, 5 pts, 1 assist, 1 TO

I mean, I like Goodine and think he'll be a good player. I'm even fine with arguing that he should have gotten more P/T but what did you actually see that suggested he was a playmaker this year? He hit threes? When?

Last, he was wearing a mask and had a difficult time adjusting. I agree and don't blame the kid. But JB was supposed to play him more as he was trying to figure out the mask?

It's a message board. It's all good. Whatever. But I'm thoroughly confused by this post.

 

[billsin01]

Times have changed. Use to play patsys and have opportunities for freshman to develop and carve out a possible role before league play starts. That's no longer the case. If you play other top programs and lose 3-4 games early in the season as we did, you're behind the 8-ball and then forced to start worrying more about winning now, than developing players for the long term if still wanting to make the big dance. So the bench gets shortened as a result and the young guns don't get a chance to ever feel comfortable or build confidence on the floor. When they do get in, their leash has been shortened as well. One mistake and they're back sitting on the bench.

This is a really good post and something i don't think many people here consider. We also have to play two more conference games these days.

 

[Ghost]

In the end, JB can’t win with half of you. When we had to grind our games in the 50’s with our D, y’all were clamoring for shooters. Now that we have shooting, and need to outscore our opponent, suddenly the 2 spot on D is the most important aspect of the team.

I think most people have been clamoring for balance. Our defense was a pretty unique strength, but we seemed to keep guys like BJ off the floor, because, defense. Now, we suddenly do a complete 180? It's odd.

Even then, I don't think people fault JB for some of this. Injuries have had an impact - but when you have a chance to achieve some balance, it might be a good idea to roll the dice on it. I'm not sure I remember anyone EVER posting, "golly, I hope we abandon defense altogether! And focus more on having Centers covering the corner three whilst we're at it!"

 

[billsin01]

He’s a freshman. Jake said the staff didn’t want or expect this. He has upside. What are we risking giving guys more PT as we are losing 15 games?

JB plays to win every game. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, simply saying that's how he plays it. He has zero intention of losing 15 games and since we don't know the outcome before we play the game he does what he thinks gives us the best chance to win the game. Being critical of that is fine but it's worth pointing out that more P/T doesn't specifically guarantee either faster development or more people staying. Not saying it wouldn't help with either but it's not a direct relationship.

 

[JLine]

I think most people have been clamoring for balance. Our defense was a pretty unique strength, but we seemed to keep guys like BJ off the floor, because, defense. Now, we suddenly do a complete 180? It's odd.

Even then, I don't think people fault JB for some of this. Injuries have had an impact - but when you have a chance to achieve some balance, it might be a good idea to roll the dice on it. I'm not sure I remember anyone EVER posting, "golly, I hope we abandon defense altogether! And focus more on having Centers covering the corner three whilst we're at it!"

Agreed, we need balance. The thing is, Goodine isn’t exponentially better than Buddy on D to the point of it outweighing his limited offensive capabilities. I think this is the point that I’m trying to make. BG was not the savior. He played timid, and yeah, a mistake was going to get him benched. But, if you can’t handle that, then maybe ACC basketball isn’t for you. Providence, or Marquette, and the BE may be a better fit. Kadary will be ready to take advantage of the opening, and the drop off won’t be enough to render the season lost.

 

[billsin01]

And we could have beaten Clemson, Florida St, NCST and UNC (1st time) just as easy as not and wound up with a better winning record also.

I really liked Goodine as a prospect and am sad to see him go. The hypothetical 'we would have won more games and he would have stayed if he played x minutes a game' theory is absurd. The kid had a lot of work to do offensively and JB gave the bulk of the minutes to the kid who shot 38% from tree and put up 15/game against ACC comp. The defense is an issue with Buddy but we weren't winning with defense this season. Sidibe was going to struggle, Edwards was going to struggle, Elijah is only intermitently a good defender, and Joe isn't a great defender. Goodine certainly helps us on defense but we had to outscore teams in this particular season.

 

[Ghost]

Agreed, we need balance. The thing is, Goodine isn’t exponentially better than Buddy on D to the point of it outweighing his limited offensive capabilities. I think this is the point that I’m trying to make. BG was not the savior. He played timid, and yeah, a mistake was going to get him benched. But, if you can’t handle that, then maybe ACC basketball isn’t for you. Providence, or Marquette, and the BE may be a better fit. Kadary will be ready to take advantage of the opening, and the drop off won’t be enough to render the season lost.

I don't think he was a savior, I think there was more of a balance to be had. Also, he is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better than Buddy on D. I'm confident you're better than Buddy on D. And Girard.

 

[billsin01]

Buddy Boeheim should not be getting 36 minutes per game. Period. End stop. 37 mpg in conference. That's insanity.

We went 17-14 with him doing so. If Goodine plays 10 mpg, does that make our record drastically worse? Could it have been drastically worse? Doubtful.

Well, Goodine actually played 12 mpg for our first 8 games. We were 4-4 with absolutely brutal defensive performances vs. PedSt and Oklahoma St. and troubles scoring (where Goodine wasn't helping) against Iowa and UVA. So I guess it depends on how you define drastically worse? I don't mean that in a snarky way, I just mean, I don't know -- I look at those stats and they tell me either Goodine wasn't quite good enough to swing things one way or the other (despite being a really impressive looking defender) or that perhaps we actually were worse when he was playing more minutes. I'm guessing it's the former.