Future Campus Framework Discussion

[IthacaMatt]

I gather most of the people crapping on the programs haven't taken a tour of Manley, Melo and the IPF within the last 6 months.

Yes, those places have received investment, but the Dome has not. The Dome is most important from the fan perspective. They can't just ignore it, in light of declining attendance. Game day atmosphere is very important, and they haven't been able to figure that out in 30 years and counting.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If I were part of the SU academic group I would focus on how big a draw the athletic department is. The events, the camaraderie, the networking because of the "brand name" may not be easily quantifiable but play amajor role in the draw to a kid who is just graduating from high school. Those are things he or she will not get immediately or ever if they go the Community College route and may be something they never get at any one of a ton of other institutions of higher learning across the country.

Failure to nurture and adequately develop the SU sports program could have the exact opposite effect that some of those in academia are fighting for. Less students, less teachers, less monetary base to fund certain programs, less name recognition a and an overall quality decline.

SUOrange44

Excellent post! A friend of mine has a son who is the classic glasses wearing, doesn't care at all about sports and never played any in high school kind of nerd. He went to Northwestern.

My friend counseled his son, "Even though you're not a sports fan, you do need to be aware of sports events on your campus. When you are an alumnus and you go to university get-togethers, sports is going to be a main topic of conversation, so you should be familiar enough to be able to share small talk about the school's sports accomplishments."

Sports plays an enormous part in shaping a college's national brand, and has a big impact on applicants.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The Cornell people I met in Upstate were the worst. Where they went to school made them feel superior and they definitely liked that feeling.
.

Well, we ARE better than you. You just have to understand that. LOL *just kidding

 

[IthacaMatt]

No doubt about it. It's the "townies" that buy the seats. But it's the alumni that make the donations.

At other school's this is largely the same group.

That's the SU conundrum. They want the alumni to donate so that the "townies" can have AC and seat backs and more civilized Men's room facilities.

Se the problem?

REALLY good observation.
Add in that many alumni, especially from the NYC area, look down on the City of Syracuse as a dump where their school just happened to be located.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The Dome and "The Fan Experience" and the impact of it on crowd size and enthusiasm?

Why is it that the Dome is such bad experience for the football crowds, but we are either #1 or #2 in basketball attendance every year.

This is the same Dome. The same parking. The same rest rooms. The same concessions. The same locker rooms.

And the weather is worse during basketball season. Games are frequently on week nights. And it is a facility designed for football in which the basketball court was kind of jury-rigged into.

The answer of course is the quality of the product on the field.

If I were in charge at SU I wouldn't spend a single dollar on anything that doesn't directly impact the quality of the product on the field. To the extent that facilities directly affects that, I'd be OK with it.

Once everything related to the product was fully-funded, I'd then worry about amenities like seat backs. The basketball attendance proves that these things aren't needed to draw big crowds.

While there is a lot of truth in this, you can't ignore that there has been, and continues to be, a steady stream of people moving away from CNY, and a general aging of the core fan base. That has something to do with the steady decline in attendance, probably as much as the product on the field. After all, hoops attendance has been going down, despite having been to 2 Final Fours this decade.

 

[Bayside44]

Yes, those places have received investment, but the Dome has not. The Dome is most important from the fan perspective. They can't just ignore it, in light of declining attendance. Game day atmosphere is very important, and they haven't been able to figure that out in 30 years and counting.

Understood but the Dome is the least of it from the athletes perspective. The football empty seats have mostly been product driven, and that games last a ghastly 4 hours at times when hoop is half that.

Hoops still packs them in.

 

[CuseCactus]

When I was a high school senior in 1986, it came down to two schools for me - USC (west) and Syracuse. The Dome (and all the exposure Syracuse got from Big East hoops) was a huge factor for me. The school seemed energized and fun. A school on the rise nationally. I wasn't the best student - but got in to other schools - Boston College, Santa Clara, Wake Forest.

I loved the campus - mixture of old (Hall of Languages) and new (the Dome was AWESOME).

I think the athletics programs at Syracuse are simply critical to the future of the university - as a differentiator. Certainly was a difference maker for me as a young kid coming from the West Coast.

I sincerely hope the renovation plan continues and brings a renewed energy to the school. The Dome should always be an icon for what Syracuse is. (And not a relic of what it was).

 

[NJCuse97]

While there is a lot of truth in this, you can't ignore that there has been, and continues to be, a steady stream of people moving away from CNY, and a general aging of the core fan base. That has something to do with the steady decline in attendance, probably as much as the product on the field. After all, hoops attendance has been going down, despite having been to 2 Final Fours this decade.

Interesting point, but i think the on the court product is not as good/interesting/exciting as in years past. The game has changed and the ACC is at the forefront of that change, but many Syracuse fans were indoctrinated in the inside power game with Louie & Bowie, Seikaly, DC, Billie Owens, Stevie Thompson, Dave Johnson, Conrad McRae, John Wallace, Etan Thomas, Hak Warrick, Onuaku, etc. We are entirely a streaky outside shooting team now. No dribble drive, no inside/outside balance, no post game, or rim rockers. I think that is a factor for an attendance fall off. The style of play has changed just enough to lose fans despite recent success, and the consistency isn't there. There are also a lot more one and done or two and done players and that affects fan interest. There are less guys they can get into and cheer for.

 

[Cusefan0307]

One thing the old guard is really great at around here is continuing lazy narratives. We averaged less people for basketball in the late 1990's than we do now. There were also less people living in CNY in the late 90's than there are now.

 

[syracuse95]

Reading this thread made me wonder how much older and poorer the Syracuse area had really gotten since I was in college, so I looked up some census and Federal Reserve data. Because it was either that or watch baseball.

The population of Onondaga County has been surprisingly stable since 1970, having stayed within 7,000 of 465,000 during that entire time (low of 453,336 in 1990 to a high of 472,746 in 1970). It's currently estimated at 468,463.

The median age of Onondaga County did creep up slightly from 2000-2015, from 36.3 to 38.8. The percentage of the population over 65 has also stayed very flat, between 13.0% and 14.0% since 1990.

Most surprisingly, to me at least, is that the per capita income, adjusted for inflation based on US CPI, has risen dramatically from $38,001 in 1990 to $47,034 in 2015.

Do with this information what you will. God I can't wait for football season to start.

 

[Toga]

Reading this thread made me wonder how much older and poorer the Syracuse area had really gotten since I was in college, so I looked up some census and Federal Reserve data. Because it was either that or watch baseball.

The population of Onondaga County has been surprisingly stable since 1970, having stayed within 7,000 of 465,000 during that entire time (low of 453,336 in 1990 to a high of 472,746 in 1970). It's currently estimated at 468,463.

The median age of Onondaga County did creep up slightly from 2000-2015, from 36.3 to 38.8. The percentage of the population over 65 has also stayed very flat, between 13.0% and 14.0% since 1990.

Most surprisingly, to me at least, is that the per capita income, adjusted for inflation based on US CPI, has risen dramatically from $38,001 in 1990 to $47,034 in 2015.

Do with this information what you will. God I can't wait for football season to start.

I too am shocked by that inflation adjusted per capita income. Wonder what the 2000 - 2015 time frame looks like. Used to use census data from time to time. Kind of fun once you know how to access the data you're looking for.

 

[syracuse95]

I too am shocked by that inflation adjusted per capita income. Wonder what the 2000 - 2015 time frame looks like. Used to use census data from time to time. Kind of fun once you know how to access the data you're looking for.

You can look up any year here:

Per Capita Personal Income in Onondaga County, NY

It just gives raw income numbers, so I used this CPI calculator to adjust for inflation.

CPI Inflation Calculator

 

[Toga]

You can look up any year here:

Per Capita Personal Income in Onondaga County, NY

It just gives raw income numbers, so I used this CPI calculator to adjust for inflation.

CPI Inflation Calculator

Wonder what household, rather than per capita income looks like. I'm perplexed by these numbers.

 

[weedsportwarriors]

Most times, the hot dogs aren't even cooked. The food is awful, although I hear that some of the concessions on the lower level are actually pretty good.

The food is always good at the Fine Lot Tailgate. Maybe we can finally meet each other.

 

[Su50]

I recently heard from an SU employee that the dome renovations will not be happening as previously stated.
Maybe just a new teflon roof and nothing else major

If true, this strikes me as a big insult to the fan base. We spend alot of time and money being fans and attending events

There is money around. The ACC published the revenue for the schools. Where is this misappropriation going to?

Are we really going to try to build a respectable FB team, keep Dino and hire a new BB coach in 5 years with ancient thinking like this? We are really at a crossroads here and it could be a devastating mistake to screw up a big recruiting tool that a renovated stadium can be

 

[upperdeck]

one issue with income is that besides just inflation eating at things, things like the internet and cell phone and netflix/hulu bills have gone crazy. with a family its pretty easy to spend more on cable/internet/cell phone than what many spend on cars and not that long ago spent on houses each month. disposable income is being spent so many ways now

 

[chakka3421]

I recently heard from an SU employee that the dome renovations will not be happening as previously stated.
Maybe just a new teflon roof and nothing else major

If true, this strikes me as a big insult to the fan base. We spend alot of time and money being fans and attending events

There is money around. The ACC published the revenue for the schools. Where is this misappropriation going to?

Are we really going to try to build a respectable FB team, keep Dino and hire a new BB coach in 5 years with ancient thinking like this? We are really at a crossroads here and it could be a devastating mistake to screw up a big recruiting tool that a renovated stadium can be

I heard this at first but received better info from better sources that a fabric roof replacement is a last resort option (especially from a safety perspective). Without NY state assistance, the reno had to be scaled back from earlier estimates of over $250 million (Coumo is the wildcard here so could still happen). Last numbers I heard was about $100 million to install a fixed roof, led lighting & sound system leaving everything else like the walls the same (smaller projects like lockers, boxes and seating can happen at any time). They really want to replace the current roof with a fixed one.

Funding should come from 2 sources - regular donations but most importantly ACC TV money supposedly not earmarked yet. The big issue is where has all the income from the ACC has gone - Alsacs raised this issue on the basketball side of the forum. My understanding is a lot of current ACC revenue streams have been diverted to SU to balance the acedemic budget. I'm told the operating budget is balanced now and they stopped dipping into the endowment principal anymore.

 

[AZOrange]

I heard this at first but received better info from better sources that a fabric roof replacement is a last resort option (especially from a safety perspective). Without NY state assistance, the reno had to be scaled back from earlier estimates of over $250 million (Coumo is the wildcard here so could still happen). Last numbers I heard was about $100 million to install a fixed roof, led lighting & sound system leaving everything else like the walls the same (smaller projects like lockers, boxes and seating can happen at any time). They really want to replace the current roof with a fixed one.

Funding should come from 2 sources - regular donations but most importantly ACC TV money supposedly not earmarked yet. The big issue is where has all the income from the ACC has gone - Alsacs raised this issue on the basketball side of the forum. My understanding is a lot of current ACC revenue streams have been diverted to SU to balance the acedemic budget. I'm told the operating budget is balanced now and they stopped dipping into the endowment principal anymore.

Wait...they've been funding operating shortfalls from endowment principal? Holy hell.

 

[Toga]

Reading this thread made me wonder how much older and poorer the Syracuse area had really gotten since I was in college, so I looked up some census and Federal Reserve data. Because it was either that or watch baseball.

The population of Onondaga County has been surprisingly stable since 1970, having stayed within 7,000 of 465,000 during that entire time (low of 453,336 in 1990 to a high of 472,746 in 1970). It's currently estimated at 468,463.

The median age of Onondaga County did creep up slightly from 2000-2015, from 36.3 to 38.8. The percentage of the population over 65 has also stayed very flat, between 13.0% and 14.0% since 1990.

Most surprisingly, to me at least, is that the per capita income, adjusted for inflation based on US CPI, has risen dramatically from $38,001 in 1990 to $47,034 in 2015.

Do with this information what you will. God I can't wait for football season to start.

Median household income (in 2015 dollars), 2011-2015

 

[MaxwellCuse]

Wait...they've been funding operating shortfalls from endowment principal? Holy hell.

There is a reason Nancy Cantor is running a branch university of Rutgers these days.

 

[SkyTopBus44]

There is a reason Nancy Cantor is running a branch university of Rutgers these days.

Not to mention her AD is running a branch of UCLA

 

[Newhouser]

I don't think it's income levels or age of the crowd - I think SU doesn't value the fan that shows up which helps the wavering fan to say "you know what I'm just going to watch at home". Obviously winning would help, but we aren't drawing 40,000 plus for WF or NC State even if we are undefeated.

 

[xc84]

I don't think it's income levels or age of the crowd - I think SU doesn't value the fan that shows up which helps the wavering fan to say "you know what I'm just going to watch at home". Obviously winning would help, but we aren't drawing 40,000 plus for WF or NC State even if we are undefeated.

Sure we would. If we are undefeated, the dome is the place to be that weekend.

 

[shandeezy7]

Wait...they've been funding operating shortfalls from endowment principal? Holy hell.

Yeah that is awful if true, and really paints a much more dire financial picture for the University than previously thought.

 

[shandeezy7]

I heard this at first but received better info from better sources that a fabric roof replacement is a last resort option (especially from a safety perspective). Without NY state assistance, the reno had to be scaled back from earlier estimates of over $250 million (Coumo is the wildcard here so could still happen). Last numbers I heard was about $100 million to install a fixed roof, led lighting & sound system leaving everything else like the walls the same (smaller projects like lockers, boxes and seating can happen at any time). They really want to replace the current roof with a fixed one.

Funding should come from 2 sources - regular donations but most importantly ACC TV money supposedly not earmarked yet. The big issue is where has all the income from the ACC has gone - Alsacs raised this issue on the basketball side of the forum. My understanding is a lot of current ACC revenue streams have been diverted to SU to balance the acedemic budget. I'm told the operating budget is balanced now and they stopped dipping into the endowment principal anymore.

How can they put a hard roof on without doing something with the walls? It was my understanding previously that the current structure could not support a hard roof.