Get It

[Finwad32]

As most of you know, I coach at the collegiate level. A large part of our offense is similar to Dino's. We practice Friday, Sat & Sun. We'll be challenging for the E8 this year. If you're interested in ball, pm me, and we can talk some ball.

I'm extremely excited about the future of SU Football, we're going to win, and, soon.

 

[supp]

As most of you know, I coach at the collegiate level. A large part of our offense is similar to Dino's. We practice Friday, Sat & Sun. We'll be challenging for the E8 this year. If you're interested in ball, pm me, and we can talk some ball.

I'm extremely excited about the future of SU Football, we're going to win, and, soon.

Why pm? Talk ball here. Lots of folks would be interested in learning more about this system.

 

[rocklloyd]

agree, let's talk here. Maybe I can learn something. Someone posted a very technical comment yesterday about the QB reading with the defense does and then reacting to potentially pick up 15 or 20 yards on the ground. There was references to shoulder alignment of defensive end, "blocking down", kicking out. And then the QB reacting to all of that. I don't know what any of that means.

 

[Finwad32]

Sounds like a plan... I started a thread about X's & O's last year that fell off when our season started. We just got way too busy. Now that we're in the midst of the off-season, maybe it's a good time to kick start it.

I'm going to throw my first post from the other thread here. It's a good starting point with a play that I think is applicable.

 

[Finwad32]

The Thread: http://syracusefan.com/threads/xs-and-os-football-101.92776/

The post from last August:

We have a lot of bright football minds on this board. So, I'm thinking I'd like to start a thread to break down X's and O's on individual plays. Ideally, I'd like to do this with specific plays that Syracuse runs during a game. Until we play one, though, I'm going to utilize basic concepts that you'll see on any Saturday this Fall.

I love talking football, and I love talking it on this board. I just thought this would be something a little different than what we typically do.

Today - Inside Zone Read with a Backside Bubble Tag.

So here, we've got your basic spread (a 2 by 2 concept.) Meaning there a two eligible WR's on each side of the formation. This is drawn up against your basic 4-3 defense with a Buck coming up to cover the backside slot WR. Strength of this formation is not necessarily declared, so for the purpose of this exercise, the right hand side will be strength. This means any player I refer to as front-side will be to the right, any player I describe as backside will be to the left. The play sequences as follows:

1) Offensive line will work combo blocks on the 5 defenders in the "Box" The sixth defensive player (The circled Defensive End) will not be blocked as he is the read man.
2) As a combo block, the lineman will work together to reach a defender and then the other player in the combo will release to the linebacker.
3) Frontside WR's are responsible for the #1 and #2 defenders. (#1 is indicated by closest to the sideline (C on the right,) #2 by second closest to the sideline, First B on the right hand side.))
4) The QB meshes with the RB, If the circled DE crashes down the line of scrimmage, the QB will not give the football to the running back, he will pull the ball and keep it.
4a) If the circled DE maintains backside responsibility the QB will hand the ball off to the RB.
5) If the DE crashes and the QB pulls the ball, he now isolates the Alley Defender (The B with a Triangle around it).
6) If the Alley Defender commits to tackling the QB, the QB will then throw the bubble to the backside Slot Receiver and Backside WR will be responsible for blocking the Cornerback. If the Alley defender shades to the Slot WR, the QB will take off up the alley and get whatever yardage he can until the Safety or ILB can tackle him.
In this scenario, we've effectively created a numbers mismatch backside.

This is a base zone read play that you can see on any Saturday.

Last edited: Aug 28, 2015

 

[Finwad32]

I'm going to try to grab some screenshots from the Spring Game and break them down...

 

[JrodCuse]

In this article, http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/3/21/11248708/syracuse-downloads-briles-ball, it mentions this play as one run a lot against Tennessee. Seems very basic as a read option play that just reads 1-2 people's positioning on the defense and goes where they aren't.

Seems so basic, yet if you're only reading where the defenders are/aren't and also throwing in a read-option run/pass this becomes a very complex play that can be run repeatedly to success.

The thing I love is the simplicity of a play like this. Two guys going out into the flats and two receivers going deep.

 

[SU68]

As most of you know, I coach at the collegiate level. A large part of our offense is similar to Dino's. We practice Friday, Sat & Sun. We'll be challenging for the E8 this year. If you're interested in ball, pm me, and we can talk some ball.

I'm extremely excited about the future of SU Football, we're going to win, and, soon.

Didn't know you coached, Finwad. Where?

 

[SUFaninNJ]

So, no Delaware Wing T? I'm out.

 

[supp]

Sounds like a plan... I started a thread about X's & O's last year that fell off when our season started. We just got way too busy. Now that we're in the midst of the off-season, maybe it's a good time to kick start it.

I'm going to throw my first post from the other thread here. It's a good starting point with a play that I think is applicable.

Cool. The thing that I don't quite get from a formation standpoint is how well people run out of this offense. I understand that spacing has a lot to do with. Also the fact that the formation is pretty much the same whether run or pass. But are we also talking about a different kind of back too? It would seem to me that shiftiness is more important than pure speed here because once you clear the second level, it's going to be a big run because ideally you've taken the secondary out of the play. The per run averages for this offense are just off the charts.

 

[TheCusian]

Cool. The thing that I don't quite get from a formation standpoint is how well people run out of this offense. I understand that spacing has a lot to do with. Also the fact that the formation is pretty much the same whether run or pass. But are we also talking about a different kind of back too? It would seem to me that shiftiness is more important than pure speed here because once you clear the second level, it's going to be a big run because ideally you've taken the secondary out of the play. The per run averages for this offense are just off the charts.

One interesting thing I read about Baylor, was that since there are so many run/pass options, linemen block in a similar way whether it's a run or a pass. They just bulldoze people no matter what.

I'm sure there's more to it than that. But I thought it was interesting.

 

[JrodCuse]

Cool. The thing that I don't quite get from a formation standpoint is how well people run out of this offense. I understand that spacing has a lot to do with. Also the fact that the formation is pretty much the same whether run or pass. But are we also talking about a different kind of back too? It would seem to me that shiftiness is more important than pure speed here because once you clear the second level, it's going to be a big run because ideally you've taken the secondary out of the play. The per run averages for this offense are just off the charts.

If you look at Bowling Green's running stats in 2014 and 2015 they are as follows:

2014 - 556 rushing attempts for 2,422 yards rushing and a 4.4 ypc average.
2015 - 542 rushing attempts for 2,520 yards rushing for a 4.6 ypc average.

If you compare that to Syracuse's running stats the past 2 years you get:

2014 - 424 rushing attempts for 1,750 yards rushing and a 4.1 ypc average.
2015 - 445 rushing attempts for 1,958 yards rushing and a 4.4 ypc average.

So the average was slightly higher at Bowling Green, just a ton more rushes due to so many more plays being run.

 

[rrlbees]

Didn't know you coached, Finwad. Where?

You didn't know Finwad is Lane Kiffin?

 

[Mr Peabody]

agree, let's talk here. Maybe I can learn something. Someone posted a very technical comment yesterday about the QB reading with the defense does and then reacting to potentially pick up 15 or 20 yards on the ground. There was references to shoulder alignment of defensive end, "blocking down", kicking out. And then the QB reacting to all of that. I don't know what any of that means.

Stop over and I'll explain. Pretty sure it means if the DE's shoulders are aligned and flat on the ground, he's been blocked down, and you just kick out and run as far and fast as you can around him. Mrs Peabody thinks i'm a genius.

 

[rocklloyd]

Stop over and I'll explain. Pretty sure it means if the DE's shoulders are aligned and flat on the ground, he's been blocked down, and you just kick out and run as far and fast as you can around him. Mrs Peabody thinks i'm a genius.

As do I

 

[retro44]

All I know is the player who had the ball will be seeing stars and sniffing salt after I busted him up for turnover. He would wilt like a daisey.

 

[Orangepace]

Today - Inside Zone Read with a Backside Bubble Tag.

So here, we've got your basic spread (a 2 by 2 concept.) Meaning there a two eligible WR's on each side of the formation. This is drawn up against your basic 4-3 defense with a Buck coming up to cover the backside slot WR. Strength of this formation is not necessarily declared, so for the purpose of this exercise, the right hand side will be strength. This means any player I refer to as front-side will be to the right, any player I describe as backside will be to the left. The play sequences as follows:

1) Offensive line will work combo blocks on the 5 defenders in the "Box" The sixth defensive player (The circled Defensive End) will not be blocked as he is the read man.
2) As a combo block, the lineman will work together to reach a defender and then the other player in the combo will release to the linebacker.
3) Frontside WR's are responsible for the #1 and #2 defenders. (#1 is indicated by closest to the sideline (C on the right,) #2 by second closest to the sideline, First B on the right hand side.))
4) The QB meshes with the RB, If the circled DE crashes down the line of scrimmage, the QB will not give the football to the running back, he will pull the ball and keep it.
4a) If the circled DE maintains backside responsibility the QB will hand the ball off to the RB.
5) If the DE crashes and the QB pulls the ball, he now isolates the Alley Defender (The B with a Triangle around it).
6) If the Alley Defender commits to tackling the QB, the QB will then throw the bubble to the backside Slot Receiver and Backside WR will be responsible for blocking the Cornerback. If the Alley defender shades to the Slot WR, the QB will take off up the alley and get whatever yardage he can until the Safety or ILB can tackle him.

I love talking football too, having played it in college (albeit on a D3 level). I like a lot about this play, but myself would add a secondary safety route (assuming the bubble screen is safety route #1, or the 3rd option in the sequence). Also, I hate to say this, but I tend to not trust OL to make decisions, let alone several, so here's how I'd modify it to suit a high school or college offense (assuming the play is run to the left):

1. Offensive line will work combo blocks on the 5 defenders in the "Box." The LT and LG perform a quick trap block on the DT, with the DT being the LG's primary responsibility. The LT must make sure the DT stays put with a quick jab and then proceeds to the RILB. The C and RG trap block the other DT and the C slides off to block the LILB. The RT blocks down on the RDE. The sixth defensive player, LDE, (The circled Defensive End) will not be blocked as he is the read man. Alternatively, if the nearside DT is lined up in the LG/C gap (instead of over the LG), the LT just proceeds directly to the RILB. The LG/C trap the DT, with the C again sliding off to the LILB. The RG is man-on-man with the other DT and the RT is man-on-man with the LDE.
2. As a combo block, the lineman will work together to reach a defender and then the other player in the combo will release to the linebacker. (Agreed w/ this, but with Lineman, I prefer to tell them if the guy is here, you do this, etc. So if he's in the A gap, the LT must assist the LG to ensure he doesn't blow the play up in the backfield before punch blocking the RILB).
3. Frontside WR's are responsible for the #1 and #2 defenders. (#1 is indicated by closest to the sideline (C on the right,) #2 by second closest to the sideline, First B on the right hand side.)) I would prefer this play out of Trips form, but thinking about it, could be more effective with a 4th receiver instead of a TE. Assuming TE, if the LDE is in the C gap, he breaks as if he's going to "out" block the LOLB and then cuts that off into a slant across the middle (we had a name for this exact route, but I forget it now). If the LDE is in the D gap, (CHRISTMAS!) he just runs a normal slant and the LOLB is likely blitzing. If run out of 4 wide, I would tell the #2 WR to just run a slant. The TE/#2 WR is the QB's last resort, 4th Option.
4. The QB meshes with the RB, If the circled RDE crashes down the line of scrimmage, the QB will not give the football to the running back, he will pull the ball and keep it.
5. If the circled DE maintains backside responsibility the QB will hand the ball off to the RB (1st Option).
6. If the DE crashes and the QB pulls the ball, he now isolates the Alley Defender (The B with a Triangle around it).
7. If the Alley Defender commits to tackling the QB, the QB will then throw the bubble to the backside Slot Receiver (2nd Option) and Backside WR will be responsible for blocking the Cornerback. If the Alley defender shades to the Slot WR, the QB will take off up the alley and get whatever yardage he can until the Safety or ILB can tackle him (3rd Option).

I like the adding of a 4th option with the WR2 or TE for the following reasons:

1. That position acting in a blocking fashion with the LOLB is relatively useless, unless all hell breaks loose and the play ends up reversing field. If the play reverses field in this circumstance, things REALLY went wrong;
2. The 1st-2nd Options in this play all must be decided in literally 1 second or less. If the DBs, or DB/ROLB, on the left are playing tight coverage, the screen can be effectively taken away pre-snap. Thus, the 4th Option gives you a fail safe 3rd Option to use the other 1-2 seconds of QB decision making. His presnap read should force him to be looking for the slant route post handoff, allowing him to keep his shoulders square (which I'm aware they wouldn't be if he squared to throw the bubble screen).
3. Sets up a great position for the QB to potentially audible presnap to flip the play if the defense is heavily shaded right. "Bourbon" lets the TE or WR2 know that he's now the bubble screen. The RB shifts right (too quick for the defense to shift field) and you go!

Just my thoughts. I love the play overall, but prefer to have one additional option for the QB (effectively giving him more flexibility presnap) depending on the defensive setup. Now, if my QB has the IQ of Jamarcus Russell.. I'm yanking anything intelligent about the play (all passing options) and just leaving him with the read option. I tried to draw up the changes, but I suck in paint:

 

[Orangepace]

In this article, http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/3/21/11248708/syracuse-downloads-briles-ball, it mentions this play as one run a lot against Tennessee. Seems very basic as a read option play that just reads 1-2 people's positioning on the defense and goes where they aren't.

Seems so basic, yet if you're only reading where the defenders are/aren't and also throwing in a read-option run/pass this becomes a very complex play that can be run repeatedly to success.

The thing I love is the simplicity of a play like this. Two guys going out into the flats and two receivers going deep.

I love this play given this defensive setup, but think that running the read option here is literally a waste. This should be a pass play from the get go so that the QB's decisiveness is 100% focused on the $afety. Asking the QB to take his eye off that $afety's movement puts him more at risk should he throw, plus wastes 1-1.5 seconds of the QB's time.

If the $afety plays up on the Y, one of the Z or X WR's are going to be one-on-one and my QB is tossing to whichever it is deep. If the $afety plays where he's positioned, the QB is throwing to the Y every time, with the only concern being if the corner covering the Z cheats toward the Y. At that point it's TD city with a wide open Z WR.

 

[Orangepace]

Cool. The thing that I don't quite get from a formation standpoint is how well people run out of this offense. I understand that spacing has a lot to do with. Also the fact that the formation is pretty much the same whether run or pass. But are we also talking about a different kind of back too? It would seem to me that shiftiness is more important than pure speed here because once you clear the second level, it's going to be a big run because ideally you've taken the secondary out of the play. The per run averages for this offense are just off the charts.

Don't agree with the point I bolded. Give me Jerome Smith in this play all fricken day! Put your north/south haus in there so that at minimum you gain 2-4 yards and if the OL does their job, he hits the 2nd level at full speed. I wouldn't want a Barry Sanders in this play because I want/need that 2-4 yards to be the worst case. If the RB hits the second level, I'd rather have him at full speed than trying to dance.

 

[Finwad32]

I love talking football too, having played it in college (albeit on a D3 level). I like a lot about this play, but myself would add a secondary safety route (assuming the bubble screen is safety route #1, or the 3rd option in the sequence). Also, I hate to say this, but I tend to not trust OL to make decisions, let alone several, so here's how I'd modify it to suit a high school or college offense (assuming the play is run to the left):

1. Offensive line will work combo blocks on the 5 defenders in the "Box." The LT and LG perform a quick trap block on the DT, with the DT being the LG's primary responsibility. The LT must make sure the DT stays put with a quick jab and then proceeds to the RILB. The C and RG trap block the other DT and the C slides off to block the LILB. The RT blocks down on the RDE. The sixth defensive player, LDE, (The circled Defensive End) will not be blocked as he is the read man. Alternatively, if the nearside DT is lined up in the LG/C gap (instead of over the LG), the LT just proceeds directly to the RILB. The LG/C trap the DT, with the C again sliding off to the LILB. The RG is man-on-man with the other DT and the RT is man-on-man with the LDE.
2. As a combo block, the lineman will work together to reach a defender and then the other player in the combo will release to the linebacker. (Agreed w/ this, but with Lineman, I prefer to tell them if the guy is here, you do this, etc. So if he's in the A gap, the LT must assist the LG to ensure he doesn't blow the play up in the backfield before punch blocking the RILB).
3. Frontside WR's are responsible for the #1 and #2 defenders. (#1 is indicated by closest to the sideline (C on the right,) #2 by second closest to the sideline, First B on the right hand side.)) I would prefer this play out of Trips form, but thinking about it, could be more effective with a 4th receiver instead of a TE. Assuming TE, if the LDE is in the C gap, he breaks as if he's going to "out" block the LOLB and then cuts that off into a slant across the middle (we had a name for this exact route, but I forget it now). If the LDE is in the D gap, (CHRISTMAS!) he just runs a normal slant and the LOLB is likely blitzing. If run out of 4 wide, I would tell the #2 WR to just run a slant. The TE/#2 WR is the QB's last resort, 4th Option.
4. The QB meshes with the RB, If the circled RDE crashes down the line of scrimmage, the QB will not give the football to the running back, he will pull the ball and keep it.
5. If the circled DE maintains backside responsibility the QB will hand the ball off to the RB (1st Option).
6. If the DE crashes and the QB pulls the ball, he now isolates the Alley Defender (The B with a Triangle around it).
7. If the Alley Defender commits to tackling the QB, the QB will then throw the bubble to the backside Slot Receiver (2nd Option) and Backside WR will be responsible for blocking the Cornerback. If the Alley defender shades to the Slot WR, the QB will take off up the alley and get whatever yardage he can until the Safety or ILB can tackle him (3rd Option).

I like the adding of a 4th option with the WR2 or TE for the following reasons:

1. That position acting in a blocking fashion with the LOLB is relatively useless, unless all hell breaks loose and the play ends up reversing field. If the play reverses field in this circumstance, things REALLY went wrong;
2. The 1st-2nd Options in this play all must be decided in literally 1 second or less. If the DBs, or DB/ROLB, on the left are playing tight coverage, the screen can be effectively taken away pre-snap. Thus, the 4th Option gives you a fail safe 3rd Option to use the other 1-2 seconds of QB decision making. His presnap read should force him to be looking for the slant route post handoff, allowing him to keep his shoulders square (which I'm aware they wouldn't be if he squared to throw the bubble screen).
3. Sets up a great position for the QB to potentially audible presnap to flip the play if the defense is heavily shaded right. "Bourbon" lets the TE or WR2 know that he's now the bubble screen. The RB shifts right (too quick for the defense to shift field) and you go!

Just my thoughts. I love the play overall, but prefer to have one additional option for the QB (effectively giving him more flexibility presnap) depending on the defensive setup. Now, if my QB has the IQ of Jamarcus Russell.. I'm yanking anything intelligent about the play (all passing options) and just leaving him with the read option. I tried to draw up the changes, but I suck in paint:

View attachment 60089

Good points. You can run out of any formation you like. It would all depend on how our opponent wants to cover it or defend us. Really, the defense determines what we run and how we run it. It's the beauty of this offense to be able to run these plays out of a ton of looks and personnel groupings.

But by having 2 run a slant on the playside, which would typically be our Z, or TE in your example, you're disregarding the inside zone run. The base concept is the run look with the bubble as an option or outlet. That block is one of the most crucial play side, lb's are typically some of the best athletes on the field and they can easily blow up that run.

As you know, the progression all comes from LDE. If he crashes QB pulls creating a 2 on 1 on the edge. If he hedges, give to the RB and you've got the play all blocked up numbers wise.

If you want to you can run an RPO focused on that backer, but the route would typically be different.

Now, if we get to the line and don't like our look, because of the speed of hand signaling, we'll have an EZ call. It's a fake cadence that gives us a blitz look and then we audible to our strength.

In terms of who should run this, high schoolers are not going to be able to block this at the majority of high schools nationally. At the next level we've been fine. Our starting OL avg's roughly 88-89% in terms of blocking correctly, communication is key. And that's the entire offense throughout a game, on a base concept like this the percentage is higher by the time we get to the season.

You've got a good concept, it just doesn't hold with this particular play imo.

 

[SU2NASA]

Where's my offense of nothing but trick plays? Every play trickier than the one before it.

 

[JrodCuse]

I love this play given this defensive setup, but think that running the read option here is literally a waste. This should be a pass play from the get go so that the QB's decisiveness is 100% focused on the $afety. Asking the QB to take his eye off that $afety's movement puts him more at risk should he throw, plus wastes 1-1.5 seconds of the QB's time.

If the $afety plays up on the Y, one of the Z or X WR's are going to be one-on-one and my QB is tossing to whichever it is deep. If the $afety plays where he's positioned, the QB is throwing to the Y every time, with the only concern being if the corner covering the Z cheats toward the Y. At that point it's TD city with a wide open Z WR.

I watched quite a few of Bowling Greens games last year, and their read option is one where almost every single play the QB reaches the ball out to the RB. They do it in a way where the QB isn't even looking at the RB, he has his eyes upfield reading either a LB or a safety to see where they are (staying back in coverage, creeping up for run support) and will make the play accordingly. I think that is why Babers system relies so heavily on a smart QB more than just a freakishly athletic one.

 

[Orangepace]

But by having 2 run a slant on the playside, which would typically be our Z, or TE in your example, you're disregarding the inside zone run. The base concept is the run look with the bubble as an option or outlet. That block is one of the most crucial play side, lb's are typically some of the best athletes on the field and they can easily blow up that run.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's the beauty here.. lots of options/variations. That said, not disregarding the inside zone run at all. Assuming you're referring to the block on the LB directly over the top of the Z-WR, as in your diagram, that LB would be forced to pull himself out of the play. He absolutely cannot let the Z-WR run free over the middle of the field. If he pauses one instant, which he'll likely have to do, that receiver gains his first separation step right there. With a WR v. a LB'er, if the QB pulls the ball out just once and looks at the WR downfield, the LB is in "oh stuff" mode. Run it once to the Z-WR and that LB'er will have to shade him the rest of the game, effectively pulling himself out of the play. He's forced into the middle of the field and the RB should have daylight. Again, just my $0.02. I like the base play alot, but I'd prefer my QB have another option, both pre- and post-snap.

 

[Orangepace]

I watched quite a few of Bowling Greens games last year, and their read option is one where almost every single play the QB reaches the ball out to the RB. They do it in a way where the QB isn't even looking at the RB, he has his eyes upfield reading either a LB or a safety to see where they are (staying back in coverage, creeping up for run support) and will make the play accordingly. I think that is why Babers system relies so heavily on a smart QB more than just a freakishly athletic one.

Well, that's why he's coaching a P5 D1A program and I'm not I guess. I would think that if he uses the read option with this play, his point is to draw the FS in to go over the top. Didn't think of that last night, but that would make sense to me. Hard to tell how deep the Y-WR is going. If 5 yards or less, I'd want the ball out faster. But if he's 6-10 yards deep, makes sense to give him that second to run the route.

 

[JrodCuse]

If you watch at :01, when he is handing the ball off, he isn't looking at the RB, he is looking at the LB at the edge to see what he is doing.
at :09 again he reaches the ball out but his eyes are upfield
at :17 he is looking directly at the LB to see what he is doing. He starts creeping up towards LOS and he doesn't hand the ball off, instead he looks to the far side of the field and hits a guy in stride for a long play.

So on their first 3 plays of offense against an SEC team, all the plays had a read option involvement to them, but none of them the typical type where the QB is turning his back to the defense to either hand the ball off or not. They are all done with his eyes focused on key players on the defense to decide what to do next.