If we don’t make the tournament next yr, is Red gone?

[two3zone]

100% agree. I think the money plays a small part. Kids still want playing time, X shots, a good fit and coaches they like.

Then why aren't we getting anyone?

 

[kingtidge]

You are not making any sense right now. You are caught up on the time will tell remark. That is irrelevant to my issues with your comment.

For the third time, my issue with your comment is that you said if we can’t consistently match offers, than it won’t be Reds fault. THIS IS WHAT I DISAGREE WITH!!!

Red is the head coach. It’s his JOB to figure it out. You think Fran has the biggest bag to offer all these transfers and recruits?

1- recruit the right kids and not only the kids that want the biggest bag.

2- form relationships, and foster growth to get the player to where they ultimately want to be.

3- work the donors and get more NIL funding. Have you seen what Fran has done with networking, dinners, outreach to involve himself with the people who can give towards NIL?

4- win games and show that you are an adequate coach and you need better players. If people believe in the coach and the product they will contribute to NIL. People are not going to throw money away on something they think is a bad investment.

The coach is not absolved from doing their job because they don’t have the same amount of NIL that every team does. Which is why I then brought up the point that the highest payrolls do not typically win championships. If it was all about the money spent, the team that spent the most money every year would win every year.

You don’t just roll the ball out there and throw someone all the money in the world to solve your problems. Listen to what Dan Hurley says. They ignore certain kids because they are all about the money. Chip Kelly just came out the other day and said transfer portal is hard. They are trying to find the right fits and not just the best player who wants the biggest bag. Those kids are not about the team and it causes resentment within the team because your paying an outsider more money then someone that is loyal and here from day 1.

So please don’t tell me I am asleep at the wheel. It’s part of the job and what Red signed up for. Red has to get it figured out because if he doesn’t, it WILL be his fault. It’s his JOB to figure it out. And as you said, time will tell if Red figures it out but that’s not the part of your post I disagreed with.

History is always in progress.

There will many target 1 and 2 players we go after... there will be many offers.

I am going to assume if we're offering, Red and his coaches see the player as a good fit for our program.

There will accepted offers and commits.

There will be swings and misses that force us to go option 3, 4 or lower.

If a lot of our business falls into the latter category, we're gonna have a problem, regardless of who the coach is.

If we don't have enough NIL to consistently compete for our top targets, your stated solution is: "Red is the head coach. It’s his JOB to figure it out."

This need goes well beyond any head coach.

It's Wildhack's, JAB's, and the collectives' brass job to figure it out.

We're in a dynamically expanding, pay-to-play market for these players. Either we build and continually grow our monetary resources to compete - or we don't (or we do but at a rate that lags behind our peers.)

Pretending it's all on the HC to "do more, with less" and consistently churn out a perennial top 10 caliber team year-in, year-out is folly.

If we have a good coach, could they capture lightning in a bottle a year here or a year there with the "do more with less" approach - sure.

But set your expectations appropriately.

There will be plenty of seasons of "do what you can with less" which is what we are familiar with ... best case bubblicious or NIT, worst case nada.

 

[MikeSU02]

First, I don't envy any coach that is trying to run a program in the current state of college basketball. It's pure mayhem. I'm surprised any of the old guard remain at all. I get why a ton of them bounced.

Second, pretty soon, having a GM/front office established, on top of having a full analytics team, will be the norm for college bball. It will mirror the NBA, imo.

Red has to be a driving force in raising NIL funds and be a driving force for the culture of the program and be a tactician (I know, school/NIL separated, assistants matter... but it still matters if our coach was Coach Finstock vs Pop, nothing against Finstock, he managed having a beer-drinking, van surfing, ball hog werewolf as well as anyone could and he also gave great advice*).

With all that said, assuming SU either fully establishes the support system that Red needs to compete in the landscape from a GM-type/support staff/analytics, I think he basically has carte blanche next year barring something totally unforeseen to be locked into a year three. If we go 0-3 on the tourney counting this past year and the next two, I think it's going to be really tough to keep him on. I love Red. I want him to succeed, but as awful as the situation with college basketball is right now, that's the deal.

I think in three years, a lot can change, however. Covid guys will have cycled out, who knows what the conferences will look like, I can imagine some type of buffer in the free-for-all that is NIL combined with unlimited transfers (even though I think the genie is basically out of the bottle on that).

Three years barring a disaster, fourth year would be tough if we don't make the tourney/show upside. I know it's apples to oranges, but seeing UConn dominate makes it really hard to deal with ongoing mediocrity.

*Here are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.

 

[MSOrange]

Ranking coaches at their alma maters: Matt Painter a slam dunk at Purdue; Kenny Payne flopped at Louisville

Coaching at the school where you played has some advantages, but doesn't guarantee success

www.cbssports.com

 

[GHLF]

I personally think this thread should be thrown in the trash, utter nonsense concerning title, Unreal IMO, oh well

 

[tbonezone]

if Red was handed a team of malcontents (which in fact he helped recruit and coach ) but was simply unable to rein them in as head coach then that is somewhat forgivable. but the fact so many players jumped ship does somehow reflect poorly on their confidence in his coaching ability and should give us pause.
But given the mass exodus this season Red now has the rare opportunity to craft any team he desires thru the magic of the modern day portal . and if he can't put himself and syracuse together a tourney caliber team with all the new pieces he personally has handpicked then we have every right to wonder when if ever it will click. this is the new modern math. roster turnover. you get it or you don't. and losing primetime games and missing the tourney doesn't attract top talent. so yes. he best make the tourney this year. and i do hope he succeeds.

 

[SBU72]

if Red was handed a team of malcontents (which in fact he helped recruit and coach ) but was simply unable to rein them in as head coach then that is somewhat forgivable. but the fact so many players jumped ship does somehow reflect poorly on their confidence in his coaching ability and should give us pause.
But given the mass exodus this season Red now has the rare opportunity to craft any team he desires thru the magic of the modern day portal . and if he can't put himself and syracuse together a tourney caliber team with all the new pieces he personally has handpicked then we have every right to wonder when if ever it will click. this is the new modern math. roster turnover. you get it or you don't. and losing primetime games and missing the tourney doesn't attract top talent. so yes. he best make the tourney this year. and i do hope he succeeds.

You mentioned "malcontents" which means they are never content with situations not centered on themselves. The fact that the malcontents bailed should point to Red not putting up with such attitudes. He tried with Benny and it was an abject failure. It really doesn't reflect on his coaching ability, just the kids opinions that he failed to give in to their egos.

 

[ORANGE OATH]

If he finishes in the bottom quartile? I sure hope those conversations happen. You can bring in 100 freemans, but if you can't make the tournament, or even finish with 7+ wins in the ACC (which is likely to be 12th or worse this year) then you are not worth the dollars. Good recruiters get canned all the time because they don't win at a high enough clip.

Do you really believe Red would get canned in his second year ?
Seriously, while I would NOT be screaming bloody murder if that did indeed happen I just don't see it. I agree the bottom quartile is completely unacceptable especially after suffering through these last 6 plus years. I have high hopes and expectations for the program but Red isn't going anywhere prior to the completion of his third season in my opinion.

 

[Red2003]

Do you really believe Red would get canned in his second year ?
Seriously, while I would NOT be screaming bloody murder if that did indeed happen I just don't see it. I agree the bottom quartile is completely unacceptable especially after suffering through these last 6 plus years. I have high hopes and expectations for the program but Red isn't going anywhere prior to the completion of his third season in my opinion.

Autry was the only new P6 coach to win 20 games last year. If he didn't bleed Orange I could almost be worried about him leaving us in a few years after he starts putting us in the tourney. And if he doesn't then you all will have alot of fun crapping on him and hyping up coaches that would never want to come here in the first place.

 

[Cuse181]

Do you really believe Red would get canned in his second year ?
Seriously, while I would NOT be screaming bloody murder if that did indeed happen I just don't see it. I agree the bottom quartile is completely unacceptable especially after suffering through these last 6 plus years. I have high hopes and expectations for the program but Red isn't going anywhere prior to the completion of his third season in my opinion.

If he finishes in the equivalent position to BC, yes. I think he will be fired. There should be no tolerance for a performance like that especially after seemingly being unable to control a train wreck of a locker room that plagued the 23-24 season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I personally think this thread should be thrown in the trash, utter nonsense concerning title, Unreal IMO, oh well

If Lampkin is gone it probably should be bumped.

 

[Sherman20]

I couldn’t disagree more. Does money play a small part, sure.

1- Goodman posted the other day of 3 teams continually winning recruits and not being the highest bidder. Baylor, Alabama, Uconn. It’s about the fit and buying into the team.

2- Do you really think we were the highest bidder for every football transfer we got this past year? If we were not how did we manage to get these kids?

You can’t always blame everything on the money. Although important, sometimes it’s about putting kids in the right position, being honest with them, and providing them with the necessary support and tools to further their careers. People claimed teams cheated for years with bags under the table. Hate to tell you, but Kentucky won 1 time since calipari came? And he won 0 times at Memphis?

The team that spends the most doesn’t win the most. Look at the history of any sport. Usually the teams that spend the most money do not win it all. UConn just went back to back and do not have this massive chest of NIL money to disperse. Let’s stop trying to make excuses for why Syracuse or Red may not succeed.

ultimately, if Red doesn’t get the job done it’s on him. Plenty of coaches have been successful without a massive NIL chest to utilize.

Exactly. NIL Money is key to landing players, but once you start winning, the money starts flowing more and there’s heat around your program. This is why I thought they made a mistake walking away from the bidding war for Jesse, despite the shadiness of Jesse’s dad’s behavior. I get why they did it after he came back twice and asked for more. But sometimes you just gotta suck it up. The key for Red is to have success right off the bat to start building momentum and buzz. It’s worth overpaying for a key portal player or two. We would’ve made the tourney if we had Jesse last season. If we’d just found the money and overpaid for Mack or Reynolds or even Leffew, it’s worth it to create momentum and buzz for the program, especially for an unproven guy like Red.

 

[elimunelson]

If we don’t make the ncaa this year he’s on the hot seat. Game is professional now. It needs to be graded on individualized seasons now. There’s no rebuild. There’s nothing but wins and losses

I don’t even care if these kids go to classes. It’s all fake school now anyway. If you transfer 2-3x it’s a farce. Treat it as such.

Sux for red but this is the bed the ncaa created

 

[two3zone]

Do you really believe Red would get canned in his second year ?
Seriously, while I would NOT be screaming bloody murder if that did indeed happen I just don't see it. I agree the bottom quartile is completely unacceptable especially after suffering through these last 6 plus years. I have high hopes and expectations for the program but Red isn't going anywhere prior to the completion of his third season in my opinion.

He has a Lousiville type year and he's gone. We're much much closer to that than we are Duke.

 

[Red2003]

He has a Lousiville type year and he's gone. We're much much closer to that than we are Duke.

Now that’s ridiculous. I shouldn’t even dignify it with a response.

We finished 6th in the ACC. 1 game out of 4th. Duke finished 2nd. Lost to the same NC state team that got hot at the right time that we beat twice in the season.

11-9 overall and that’s the best finish we’ve had in the ACC in like a decade. And if you break out the oh it was a down acc year take that crap to the lunardi fan page. ACC outperformed every other conference yet again.

Louisville last place with 3 total ACC wins, and that’s sustained cellar of the ACC not just a blip.

It’s not good enough for Syracuse standards but you’re just plain wrong about your comparison

 

[two3zone]

Now that’s ridiculous. I shouldn’t even dignify it with a response.

We finished 6th in the ACC. 1 game out of 4th. Duke finished 2nd. Lost to the same NC state team that got hot at the right time that we beat twice in the season.

11-9 overall and that’s the best finish we’ve had in the ACC in like a decade. And if you break out the oh it was a down acc year take that crap to the lunardi fan page. ACC outperformed every other conference yet again.

Louisville last place with 3 total ACC wins, and that’s sustained cellar of the ACC not just a blip.

It’s not good enough for Syracuse standards but you’re just plain wrong about your comparison

You're talking about last year. You think this team is finishing 6th?

Last year means zero in this climate.

 

[OrangeinDC]

If we don’t make the ncaa this year he’s on the hot seat. Game is professional now. It needs to be graded on individualized seasons now. There’s no rebuild. There’s nothing but wins and losses

I don’t even care if these kids go to classes. It’s all fake school now anyway. If you transfer 2-3x it’s a farce. Treat it as such.

Sux for red but this is the bed the ncaa created

Seriously? No he's not...

Do we want to be that type of program? kids start seeing thru that immediately. Is that where we wanna go? It's about finding balance, with the situation. 20 wins year one is a good building block. Chess not checkers.

 

[two3zone]

Seriously? No he's not...

Do we want to be that type of program? kids start seeing thru that immediately. Is that where we wanna go? It's about finding balance, with the situation. 20 wins year one is a good building block. Chess not checkers.

20 wins would be a nice building block if you didnt lose your two best players and replaced them with middle of the road mid major players.

 

[OrangeinDC]

If we don’t make the ncaa this year he’s on the hot seat. Game is professional now. It needs to be graded on individualized seasons now. There’s no rebuild. There’s nothing but wins and losses

I don’t even care if these kids go to classes. It’s all fake school now anyway. If you transfer 2-3x it’s a farce. Treat it as such.

Sux for red but this is the bed the ncaa created

I can't wait to we're in the same place and you see who I am! We go back... Via Z when you first got to Cuse.

 

[OrangeinDC]

20 wins would be a nice building block if you didnt lose your two best players and replaced them with middle of the road mid major players.

You coach the situation. Control what you control, and Coach them all. There are good pieces on the team. How they will they be used and coached is the ?? Kids will run through a wall if he trust the coach, not the program.

 

[two3zone]

You coach the situation. Control what you control, and Coach them all. There are good pieces on the team. How they will they be used and coached is the ?? Kids will run through a wall if he trust the coach, not the program.

He coached them all last year and one guy got kicked off the team and everyone else left.

They're running, but not through walls.

 

[OrangeinDC]

He coached them all last year and one guy got kicked off the team and everyone else left.

They're running, but not through walls.

If that's the way you see it... Or what you take out of it...

 

[Scotch]

He coached them all last year and one guy got kicked off the team and everyone else left.

They're running, but not through walls.

I don’t think that’s fair.

He ran off a few clowns and lost one to a bigger bag.

 

[two3zone]

If that's the way you see it... Or what you take out of it...

You said players run through walls for a coach, who's done that for Red? Starling? Yeah probably because Red is the only P5 coach that would play him 30 minutes a game.

 

[two3zone]

I don’t think that’s fair.

He ran off a few clowns and lost one to a bigger bag.

Ok, where are Red's guys? The guy they were building the entire team around got up and left.

Lost one to a bigger bag? Dont forget Brown.

What guys did we "give a bigger bag" to?