It's all about depth

[DonLightfoot]

We all know that we don't have a lot of "dependable" talent sitting on the bench. I've said on here several times in the past, as have many of you, that is why we're basically good for about 33-35 minutes and that is it. NC last night had nine players playing more than double digit minutes, we had the usual six. Call it a recruiting failure or whatever else you want, but until our depth improves I don't see things changing, especially this year. Hopefully when Howard is feeling better we can improve this a bit. I was ECSTATIC about the effort on the boards which is one key area that needed improvement. Keep plugging away and hopefully we will see some positive results.

 

[SoBristol]

I expect our team will keep plugging, but there are a lot of good teams in the middle of the ACC, and even in the bottom third.
Tough to win when you get sliced up inside. It isn't only rebounding margin (the numbers were OK last night) -- it is whether the opposing bigs get a ton of inside points, when your bigs struggle.

 

[orangecuse]

We all know that we don't have a lot of "dependable" talent sitting on the bench. I've said on here several times in the past, as have many of you, that is why we're basically good for about 33-35 minutes and that is it. NC last night had nine players playing more than double digit minutes, we had the usual six. Call it a recruiting failure or whatever else you want, but until our depth improves I don't see things changing, especially this year. Hopefully when Howard is feeling better we can improve this a bit. I was ECSTATIC about the effort on the boards which is one key area that needed improvement. Keep plugging away and hopefully we will see some positive results.

The reality is, that over JB's 40 years of coaching, he's never really been known as a bench coach. Even if we had guys sitting on the bench who may contribute, JB traditionally has always preferred to play 7 guys tops in his legitimate rotation. It's clearly his comfort zone...that ain't ever changing. This lack of not having a bench (or one that seriously contributes consistently) is nothing new.

 

[tbonezone]

...and into the final turn it's reasonable rotation and short bench neck and neck. oh boy folks what a race!
but wait short bench seems a bit winded and down the stretch it's reasonable rotation pulling away by 4 lengths...

 

[Jack Hall]

The reality is, that over JB's 40 years of coaching, he's never really been known as a bench coach. Even if we had guys sitting on the bench who may contribute, JB traditionally has always preferred to play 7 guys tops in his legitimate rotation. It's clearly his comfort zone...that ain't ever changing. This lack of not having a bench (or one that seriously contributes consistently) is nothing new.

Compare contrast these 2 box scores. You may claim there is nothing new , and in a lot of ways you would be correct. Ie the FF teams of 87, 96, 13 JB barely used a bench and had considerable success. But in many ways what you are saying is a gross oversimplification. Look at the box score from JB/SUs 2003 National Championship, look at mins played (61 vs 30, DOUBLE THE MINS!) pts scored, assists, rebounds etc from the bench. Its a sizable difference from last night. And many times it (ie depth and talent of that depth) can be the difference between winning and losing. I get it , we dont have much of a bench , thats fine, but good luck winning a title w no bench

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2003-04-07-kansas.html

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...basketball_box_score_vs_north_carolina_1.html

your statement of "7 guys tops in his legit rotation...it aint ever changing". Well his comfort zone did change in '03, thank god.

And im not pointing the finger at JB, there are a ton of factors that go into having a deep andor talented bench. And certainly the ncaas lousy decisions have impacted our depth. Im just saying, somehow, we need a deeper bench than we ve had the last 3 yrs. i expect us to have a deeper bench next year. Go Cuse!

 

[orangezen]

we also would have players hampered by 4 fouls with no one competent to replace them so they cant go 100 %

 

[orangecuse]

Compare contrast these 2 box scores. You may claim there is nothing new , and in a lot of ways you would be correct. Ie the FF teams of 87, 96, 13 JB barely used a bench and had considerable success. But in many ways what you are saying is a gross oversimplification. Look at the box score from JB/SUs 2003 National Championship, look at mins played (61 vs 30, DOUBLE THE MINS!) pts scored, assists, rebounds etc from the bench. Its a sizable difference from last night. And many times it (ie depth and talent of that depth) can be the difference between winning and losing. I get it , we dont have much of a bench , thats fine, but good luck winning a title w no bench

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/boxscores/2003-04-07-kansas.html

http://www.syracuse.com/orangebaske...basketball_box_score_vs_north_carolina_1.html

your statement of "7 guys tops in his legit rotation...it aint ever changing". Well his comfort zone did change in '03, thank god.

And im not pointing the finger at JB, there are a ton of factors that go into having a deep andor talented bench. And certainly the ncaas lousy decisions have impacted our depth. Im just saying, somehow, we need a deeper bench than we ve had the last 3 yrs. i expect us to have a deeper bench next year. Go Cuse!

There is always an exception to the rule, and, oh, '03 we just happened to have a freshman who arguably was the best player ever to don an SU jersey. It isn't coincidental that Carmelo gave JB his only national title. Yeah, there were role guys that contributed, etc. but no Carmelo, no championship, period.

I stand by my statement that JB prefers to play his starters exclusively, and no more than two more players in his rotation...it is his comfort zone. And, it's really difficult to debate when you look at his rotation (come conference play, post season, etc.) over the duration of his career. Nothing gross or over oversimplified, but just plain simple as that. I wish JB played his bench more, especially in years past where it appeared there were guys who could contribute down the road, later in the season when it really mattered. However, the bottom line is, JB wants to win first and foremost, and he hasn't trusted his bench or felt comfortable enough over the years to really alter that position as he believes it would jeopardize the chances of winning in that moment.

I love JB, and you certainly can't argue with his success. JB has and always will live and die by playing his starters exhaustively. He ain't changing a thing in regards to ever consistently playing more than 7 legitimately. Just my opinion in watching and passionately following SU since the 70's.

 

[dasher]

...and into the final turn it's reasonable rotation and short bench neck and neck. oh boy folks what a race!
but wait short bench seems a bit winded and down the stretch it's reasonable rotation pulling away by 4 lengths...

short bench has been beating reasonable rotation for 40 years in this program. The kids on our bench right now can't play a bit. KJ and Chino? Howard is an answer but he isn't well.

 

[jncuse]

The reality is, that over JB's 40 years of coaching, he's never really been known as a bench coach. Even if we had guys sitting on the bench who may contribute, JB traditionally has always preferred to play 7 guys tops in his legitimate rotation. It's clearly his comfort zone...that ain't ever changing. This lack of not having a bench (or one that seriously contributes consistently) is nothing new.

My theory for why it is a different this year, is that the key players are playing out of position (the point on O, and the undersized kid in the middle). I would think playing out of a natural position probably takes more effort and kills you sooner. Just makes breakdowns (physical or mental) easier in the end --

Just a theory because you are correct it has worked before -- although it usually requires 7. And the difference between 7 and 6 is quite huge... it could give most of your players an extra 3-5 minute breather during the game.

 

[IthacaMatt]

There is always an exception to the rule, and, oh, '03 we just happened to have a freshman who arguably was the best player ever to don an SU jersey. It isn't coincidental that Carmelo gave JB his only national title. Yeah, there were role guys that contributed, etc. but no Carmelo, no championship, period.

I stand by my statement that JB prefers to play his starters exclusively, and no more than two more players in his rotation...it is his comfort zone. And, it's really difficult to debate when you look at his rotation (come conference play, post season, etc.) over the duration of his career. Nothing gross or over oversimplified, but just plain simple as that. I wish JB played his bench more, especially in years past where it appeared there were guys who could contribute down the road, later in the season when it really mattered. However, the bottom line is, JB wants to win first and foremost, and he hasn't trusted his bench or felt comfortable enough over the years to really alter that position as he believes it would jeopardize the chances of winning in that moment.

I love JB, and you certainly can't argue with his success. JB has and always will live and die by playing his starters exhaustively. He ain't changing a thing in regards to ever consistently playing more than 7 legitimately. Just my opinion in watching and passionately following SU since the 70's.

There have been some good years when we played more than 7. The only year we played only 7 guys at least 10 minutes a game was 1996. Most years, it's around 8 1/2 guys.

Go back and look at the Arinze team: Arinze, Rick, Wes Johnson, Kris Joseph and James Southerland in the front court, and then you had Scoop, Andy and Brandon Triche making up the guard rotation - 8 guys - 5 in the front court and 3 in the back court. You always have to have at least that many - 2 guys to share the post, 3 guards and 3 guys to share the forward spots. That's the least you can get by with. Some years we've gone deeper.

In 2012, we played Scoop, Dion, Brandon and MCW (1/2 guy) at guard, Fab Melo, Rak and Baye Keita at center, all of whom played, CJ Fair, Kris Joseph, James Southerland and Mookie Jones (1/2) - that's 10/11 guys who all played.

2000 was like that, too: Etan Thomas, Jeremy Mc Neill at center, Damone Brown, Ryan Blackwell and Preston Shumpert at Forward, Jason Hart, Tony Bland, DeShaun Williams and Allen Griffin all played at guard. That was a nine man rotation, and even Billy Celuck got a good amount of time that year.

It's a function of how many good players we have. Or sometimes how many guys it takes to fill the post.

You'll notice that's the piece that's really missing this year.

 

[Shark58]

short bench works better when you have:

1- better players in the lineup

2- roster balance so the players that hit the floor are playing their natural positions

3- the lineup includes at least one star/superstar along with a high level complementary player or two

those are not traits of this team

true story

 

[orangecuse]

There have been some good years when we played more than 7. The only year we played only 7 guys at least 10 minutes a game was 1996. Most years, it's around 8 1/2 guys.

Go back and look at the Arinze team: Arinze, Rick, Wes Johnson, Kris Joseph and James Southerland in the front court, and then you had Scoop, Andy and Brandon Triche making up the guard rotation - 8 guys - 5 in the front court and 3 in the back court. You always have to have at least that many - 2 guys to share the post, 3 guards and 3 guys to share the forward spots. That's the least you can get by with. Some years we've gone deeper.

In 2012, we played Scoop, Dion, Brandon and MCW (1/2 guy) at guard, Fab Melo, Rak and Baye Keita at center, all of whom played, CJ Fair, Kris Joseph, James Southerland and Mookie Jones (1/2) - that's 10/11 guys who all played.

2000 was like that, too: Etan Thomas, Jeremy Mc Neill at center, Damone Brown, Ryan Blackwell and Preston Shumpert at Forward, Jason Hart, Tony Bland, DeShaun Williams and Allen Griffin all played at guard. That was a nine man rotation, and even Billy Celuck got a good amount of time that year.

It's a function of how many good players we have. Or sometimes how many guys it takes to fill the post.

You'll notice that's the piece that's really missing this year.

You've brought up a couple three seasons that may legitimately refute my argument. I haven't gone back 40 years to do any research on my view, but only from my memory and how just about every season it seemed that we really never have a deep bench where a number of guys coming off the bench were seeing any meaningful minutes and/or contributing.

I really don't recall ever having 8 + guys in a rotation playing more than 10 minutes a game, certainly not in conference play or tourney time. You mention Southerland and Mookie in '12, but they rarely played any minutes of significance come conference play, tourney time. When I say 7 guys, I mean 7 guys playing legitimate minutes, and not against the cupcakes in Nov. & Dec. For years it seemed to be a debated discussion...where was Tony Scott, LeShaun Jackson, Richard Manning, Glenn Sekunda, Keith Hughes, Earl Duncan...why aren't they playing, etc., etc. :noidea:

Edit: Quickly did some research, but only from FF in '87, 96 & '03. As Jack Hall mentioned above in '03 we did play 8 guys and 8 of them played a min. of 10 minutes. In 87 we basically played 7, Stevie Thompson seeing 10 + minutes but Brower under 10, and Harried 2 and a DNP. In 96 only 7, J.B. Reafsnyder saw 10 + minutes, Junulis under 10 minutes.

I guess the overall point I was attempting to make, is that over the years, generally, JB rarely plays more than 7 guys legitimate minutes when it matters most...conference and tourney play. And, consistently, he most always plays his starters 30 + minutes game in and game out.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Boeheim gives the quick hooks too much and sacrifices some in game development because of that, but, if the bench is good he'll play the bench. Our bench is bad. He's right in the sense that G won't be coming off the floor. Joseph is probably shut down for the season and deservedly so. But, he brought those players in and that's a whole another issue.

 

[Briancuse]

Depth can be overrated in college bball, its not like we have had a ton of depth in the past. The problem is we don't have a pg, we can't rebound, can't defend the paint, not going to win many games with that combo.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Let's not forget that these guys are practicing against each other every day. When you're bench is not that deep or talented it makes it tough to make your talented guys better.

 

[Eric15]

no Carmelo, no championship, period.

Tell me an NCAA champion in college basketball history that would have still won it all without their best player. I'm very interested. There's nothing unique about us there.

Also, if that team was all Melo, we lose in the 2nd round to Oklahoma State, because he was garbage that game.

 

[kcsu]

The problem is that guys who should be sitting on the bench are starting

 

[orangecuse]

Tell me an NCAA champion in college basketball history that would have still won it all without their best player. I'm very interested. There's nothing unique about us there.

Also, if that team was all Melo, we lose in the 2nd round to Oklahoma State, because he was garbage that game.

Choosing that particular snippet is somewhat peculiar to me...along with your snide question & remark about how interested you are.

I was just making a statement, that in my opinion, Carmelo was the primary reason we won a NC in '03. Of course there were others contributing, but their contribution was enhanced by the arguable fact that we had the best player in the game. The mere presence of Melo on the floor made all of our guys better, etc. No way (in my opinion) we win it without him, whether you feel he was garbage or not in the OSU game, his presence had to be dealt with, creating all kinds of match up issues and ensuing opportunities for others to shine. That, imo, is pretty self explanatory. I never said that the team was all Melo, obviously, but I do believe no Melo, no title.

Chicago won all of their titles because of Jordan...no Jordan, no titles. Same premise here.

 

[AZOrange]

The problem is that guys who should be sitting on the bench are starting

And u have to have a bench that actually helps.

 

[RF2044]

You've brought up a couple three seasons that may legitimately refute my argument. I haven't gone back 40 years to do any research on my view, but only from my memory and how just about every season it seemed that we really never have a deep bench where a number of guys coming off the bench were seeing any meaningful minutes and/or contributing.

I really don't recall ever having 8 + guys in a rotation playing more than 10 minutes a game, certainly not in conference play or tourney time. You mention Southerland and Mookie in '12, but they rarely played any minutes of significance come conference play, tourney time. When I say 7 guys, I mean 7 guys playing legitimate minutes, and not against the cupcakes in Nov. & Dec. For years it seemed to be a debated discussion...where was Tony Scott, LeShaun Jackson, Richard Manning, Glenn Sekunda, Keith Hughes, Earl Duncan...why aren't they playing, etc., etc. :noidea:

Edit: Quickly did some research, but only from FF in '87, 96 & '03. As Jack Hall mentioned above in '03 we did play 8 guys and 8 of them played a min. of 10 minutes. In 87 we basically played 7, Stevie Thompson seeing 10 + minutes but Brower under 10, and Harried 2 and a DNP. In 96 only 7, J.B. Reafsnyder saw 10 + minutes, Junulis under 10 minutes.

I guess the overall point I was attempting to make, is that over the years, generally, JB rarely plays more than 7 guys legitimate minutes when it matters most...conference and tourney play. And, consistently, he most always plays his starters 30 + minutes game in and game out.

Not refuting your main points [good post], but 10 minutes per game equates to 25% of the available PT. Not sure that needs to be the line of demarcation about whether a reserve is "playing" or not. 8 minutes is 20% --anyone playing that amount of time is a key reserve playing a substantial amount of the available minutes.

 

[orangecuse]

Not refuting your main points [good post], but 10 minutes per game equates to 25% of the available PT. Not sure that needs to be the line of demarcation about whether a reserve is "playing" or not. 8 minutes is 20% --anyone playing that amount of time is a key reserve playing a substantial amount of the available minutes.

I agree. I found myself surprised by the amount of minutes played by those players...I clearly would've lost some bets. The point I was attempting to make, overall, is that through the years I believe more times than not, our rotation is about 7, using the same criterion you also feel deems a reserve key.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Not refuting your main points [good post], but 10 minutes per game equates to 25% of the available PT. Not sure that needs to be the line of demarcation about whether a reserve is "playing" or not. 8 minutes is 20% --anyone playing that amount of time is a key reserve playing a substantial amount of the available minutes.

You're looking at it the wrong way. There's 200 distributable minutes in each game. 8 minutes is only 4% of the total minutes, 10 minutes is 5%.

 

[RF2044]

You're looking at it the wrong way. There's 200 distributable minutes in each game. 8 minutes is only 4% of the total minutes, 10 minutes is 5%.

Disagree. A player can only play a maximum of 40 minutes of time in any game. Based upon minutes played, what percentage of the 40 available minutes did said player play?

 

[IthacaMatt]

You're looking at it the wrong way. There's 200 distributable minutes in each game. 8 minutes is only 4% of the total minutes, 10 minutes is 5%.

That's silly. People can't play 5 positions at the same time. The real question is can you make an impact on the game in a 4 or 5 minute segment of each half. That's a fair run, in my opinion. If you get two runs in a game, you are part of the rotation.

 

[CuseMan4]

I hate to look ahead to next year but we won't have any guys playing 40 minutes next year which is a good thing. You have a 3 guard rotation possibly 4 (Battle, Howard, Richardson, Joseph) we'll be deep at the wings (Lydon, Roberson, Moyer, if needed Richardson) and Center we'll have (Paschal, Coleman, Chinoso, and hopefully Thompson who can probably play the wing as well) we'll be deep next year and hopefully we can finish strong this year.