Marrone's tenure here...

[chakka3421]

I hate revisionist history. All I know is Doug Marrone did not want to be the coach at Syracuse anymore, so he left. Good bye Doug. LGO!

Yep I'm not on a crusade regarding Doug even though it may seem like it. I was just trying to set the record straight from his point of view as best as I knew it.

Doug M is gone and we should just all move on as he is not coming back. Sometimes you just don't realize how good someone is until they are longer with you anymore as long as you can get over your own bitterness.

HCSS has everything in place to be successful with the new IPF - it is now up to him to win those recruiting battles and future games. LGO indeed.

 

[Toga]

You would think with all those binders he would know what he was getting into and what the job entailed, off the field. He hated kissing ass of the donors, hated kissing ass of the board, hated kissing ass of the public and hated kissing ass of recruits. He wasn't very good at any of those things.

Short of being able to hire a top notch ass kisser - that all screams NFL

 

[GoSU96]

Interesting thread.

 

[DNABB5]

are we better this year than the year before marrone

The 2013 Syracuse team would beat the 2008 team. Yes.

you are still intentionally missing the point. the question was, is the program in a better place now then when marrone took over? what about this season shows you any improvement?

Akron? They lost to Akron. Why don't you wait until the season is over to make that judgement? How about that we throttled a team that is 5-2? Sure. They got creamed 3 times. 2008 had that happen like 8 times. EVERY game was over by the first freaking quarter. If you can't see that you are blind. Who from 2008 would start in this team? Art Jones is about it. Maybe DC3. Cam Dantley missed throws all the time too.

 

[SaltineWar]

When he interviewed and first got here he was all in - that was his style - and you could see it in his eyes that this was his dream job at first.

However, he never got the support he thought the football program needed to be competitive in recruiting. Facilities were a mess and basically hadn't changed since he left as a player. Assistant coaches salaries were sub par. Olympic sports had too much $ allocated to them at the expense of the football program. We had turned into a bball school that is played inside a football stadium how crazy is that? Did we build the Dome just to play basketball in it?

The football program had sunk to 119 out of 120 when he took over - I once told him early on that the SU football program should be shut down if he couldn't turn it around. At first he took it on as a challenge to fix the program, facilities, fan support & simply to bring the program back to the old glory days.

He did come to understand that the landscape where facilities and fan attendance was used against him in recruiting battles. We did lose some really close battles here in NY - much closer than you all know going all the way back to D Easley. However, the battles off the field were what really changed his dream job into a nightmare.

He fought huge battles to get monies allocated to simply upgrade football facilities. He couldn't understand why their was no support - he knew on the national scene football drives the bus - and he knew SU wanted to join either the BiG or ACC and those leagues understand that football drives the bus. He thought many here were short sided because they didn't understand the changing landscape. He did finally come to realize how far the BE conference had slid so low on the national scene because it didn't value football as much as it did basketball. And that SU had become blinded by the success of the basketball program just like the BE conference.

Because he clearly understood the national landscape that football drives the bus but couldn't convince anyone here - ergo - the IPF has been on the table for 3-4 years but no support from the Board to even consider building it - they told Doug go find the money yourself and you can build your IPF.

By the way, he felt like the AD was nowhere to be found on this sore subject as Doug thought his job was to Coach football, not be a fundraiser for an IPF. In Dr Gross's defense, there was no money to be had either being stuck in the BE conference that focused its success on basketball (which if you remember turned down a lucrative ESPN contract). It's just how it's done here at SU at least until he left where it became ironic in what happened next.

That was the politics behind the scenes - no real support from above - but their was no money - a real catch 22 - and no vision existed for the football program when Doug made the decision to leave. That's how he got to the point where, as Jake said, someone else will need to take it to the next level.

Now to the most ironic thing that occurred when Doug decided it was time to move on and left - we joined the ACC, football became king again and a light bulb went on from above - and magically funds were found to build the IPF. Imagine that - where did we find these funds all of a sudden I ask all of you?

In a way, Doug finally got what he wanted - the IPF for recruiting purposes - but he had to leave the program to get it.

No support for football.

 

[Orangepace]

Wasn't implying that long. Timeline would have been the same. He wanted it now.

And we should have given it to him on his timeline. The delay continues to piss me off and it doesn't impact my job.

 

[KCJax03]

100% disagree.

If Shafer fails, Marrone will be viewed as awesome, as the HC who did it himself between Grobissmalness and Shafer not cutting it (God forbid.)

Disagree 100%. One of the things Marrone said after leaving was that his goal was to rebuild the program and he accomplished it. I am grateful for what he did to bring the program back from the dead but in my opinion he did not finish the job. The program was not rebuilt yet (i.e. system in place and consistently winning), it was in a state of transition and gaining steam. When he left and took the entire staff he compromised everything that was gained.

When Coach Mac left, Syracuse had 4 consecutive bowl seasons and Pasqualoni went 20-4 his first two seasons after taking over the reigns. The program was rebuilt.

Marrone did a lot of good things here but he left at a critical time when the program appeared to be ready to take the next step. Whether Shafer can continue the rebuild remains to be seen.

 

[SmilinBob]

My opinion on this is that Doug is the HC for the Bills. SS is the HC for SU. Learn from the past, move on and figure out a way to improve the future.

I'm in the camp that Doug found out he wasn't cut out for coaching at SU with many variables coming into play as many pointed out. To me, most of the good or great college HC's have little or no NFL experience and there may be a reason for that...SS fits that bill. Regarding SS, his assets/liabilities are another thread topic.

SU is a school that wants $tuff given to them without doing the work. It's frustrating and there are too many times I want to tell them to go to hell because of how incredibly head banging against a wall frustrating it is. It's not our job to do all the work.

 

[Full_Rebar]

The IPF timeline is not the same. Marrone was promised one would be built when he was hired, and not the "80 yards" in Manley, which is actually 60 yards of a regulation field width. It's also shared by every team at SU, and since it was a stop-gap measure, it's design was also extremely short-sighted. The committee was aware when he was hired that it was a need because the football team's speed and strength numbers were woeful.

chakka is right about a lot of points- the frustration built over his time because Marrone wasn't winning the recruiting battles he needed, and didn't feel his time should be spent fundraising, marketing, or worrying about the non-conf schedule and that the Ath Dept and SU was making his job harder. For example, the decision to go play at Missouri last year when Marrone was told he needed to make a bowl game before a contract extension would be discussed.

It's great to say that Beamer is out golfing with donors, but I wonder what Foster makes, or what their overall asst. coach salary pool is in comparison to SU. Look at the Dome attendance and you'll know that football is not generating enough revenue on its own to compete at this level. More resources need to be put into the fundraising efforts at SU. I know I've seen many comments on this board from people who say the 4-figure donors have been marginalized while SU chases 7 figure donors. Hopefully the ACC revenue is put to good use in areas behind the scenes.

As far as taking coaches, Shafer wasn't going to keep the same staff anyway so in a way, it made the transition easier. All the coaches last year were looking at other options because none of them were assured that they wouldn't be headed into this season as a lame-duck staff.

Let me also say that I don't want to turn this into a personal issue with anyone on the board. I think Marrone came here with the vision of restoring the program to the level we all want it to see, but the politics and other things took him away from what he loves to do, which is coach. He has the opportunity to now focus solely on coaching, and is paid very well to do so.

What the Syracuse fans need to do is support this team and Shafer, be thankful that Marrone got things back on track, and hope that the new Chancellor is more involved with making sure the AD is doing what needs to be done to get the program to continue to move forward.

 

[Orangetradition44]

I agree. Marrone's legacy is almost solely dependent on Shafer, and it's because he did NOT finish what he claimed he came here to do.

If Shafer is successful, Marrone will be remembered fondly.

If Shafer fails, he'll be remembered as the alumn who left when things got tough.

My opinion on this is that Doug is the HC for the Bills. SS is the HC for SU. Learn from the past, move on and figure out a way to improve the future.

I'm in the camp that Doug found out he wasn't cut out for coaching at SU with many variables coming into play as many pointed out. To me, most of the good or great college HC's have little or no NFL experience and there may be a reason for that...SS fits that bill. Regarding SS, his assets/liabilities are another thread topic.

SU is a school that wants $tuff given to them without doing the work. It's frustrating and there are too many times I want to tell them to go to hell because of how incredibly head banging against a wall frustrating it is. It's not our job to do all the work.

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[omniorange]

When he interviewed and first got here he was all in - that was his style - and you could see it in his eyes that this was his dream job at first.

However, he never got the support he thought the football program needed to be competitive in recruiting. Facilities were a mess and basically hadn't changed since he left as a player. Assistant coaches salaries were sub par. Olympic sports had too much $ allocated to them at the expense of the football program. We had turned into a bball school that is played inside a football stadium how crazy is that? Did we build the Dome just to play basketball in it?

The football program had sunk to 119 out of 120 when he took over - I once told him early on that the SU football program should be shut down if he couldn't turn it around. At first he took it on as a challenge to fix the program, facilities, fan support & simply to bring the program back to the old glory days.

He did come to understand that the landscape where facilities and fan attendance was used against him in recruiting battles. We did lose some really close battles here in NY - much closer than you all know going all the way back to D Easley. However, the battles off the field were what really changed his dream job into a nightmare.

He fought huge battles to get monies allocated to simply upgrade football facilities. He couldn't understand why their was no support - he knew on the national scene football drives the bus - and he knew SU wanted to join either the BiG or ACC and those leagues understand that football drives the bus. He thought many here were short sided because they didn't understand the changing landscape. He did finally come to realize how far the BE conference had slid so low on the national scene because it didn't value football as much as it did basketball. And that SU had become blinded by the success of the basketball program just like the BE conference.

Because he clearly understood the national landscape that football drives the bus but couldn't convince anyone here - ergo - the IPF has been on the table for 3-4 years but no support from the Board to even consider building it - they told Doug go find the money yourself and you can build your IPF.

By the way, he felt like the AD was nowhere to be found on this sore subject as Doug thought his job was to Coach football, not be a fundraiser for an IPF. In Dr Gross's defense, there was no money to be had either being stuck in the BE conference that focused its success on basketball (which if you remember turned down a lucrative ESPN contract). It's just how it's done here at SU at least until he left where it became ironic in what happened next.

That was the politics behind the scenes - no real support from above - but their was no money - a real catch 22 - and no vision existed for the football program when Doug made the decision to leave. That's how he got to the point where, as Jake said, someone else will need to take it to the next level.

Now to the most ironic thing that occurred when Doug decided it was time to move on and left - we joined the ACC, football became king again and a light bulb went on from above - and magically funds were found to build the IPF. Imagine that - where did we find these funds all of a sudden I ask all of you?

In a way, Doug finally got what he wanted - the IPF for recruiting purposes - but he had to leave the program to get it.

Sorry, love Coach Marrone and will be grateful for what he accomplished, but a lot of this is just crap.

He didn't like recruiting, he didn't like the fact that he was expected to help raise the money for the facilities upgrades, and he didn't like the pay.

In other words, he realized he was an NFL guy and didn't truly understand what it was to be a college coach in the modern landscape. Stop trying to make him out to be some visionary when the truth is he had no clue what the modern college coach is about, which is far more than the Xs and Os that he wanted to focus on.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[SmilinBob]

Some people are good as kissing babies and sweet talking and Doug is not one of them. The NFL is put it to the grindstone and work...too many extra curricular crapola if you want to coach college football...more of a salesman job and you do not have to sell being a HC in the NFL.

 

[anomander]

I remember during the discussions of facilities at the end of the Pasqualoni Era getting out the yearbooks and making a list of the upgrades they had listed for several years before that. Then there were changes made in the G-Rob Era. McNabb paid for a locker room upgrade. There may have been other things to do but I don't think they were the same. And I doubt they were "a mess".

SWC - they were a mess. A complete and utter disaster. We easily had some of the worst facilities for a bcs program. Even for them to get that bad angers me. This program was basically burned to the ground under a knowing eye. Even if you don't like Marrone for leavig and feel he still had work to do you should be thankful he sent a wake up call to everyone above him. There is still a lot thas not even being said.


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[omniorange]

SWC - they were a mess. A complete and utter disaster. We easily had some of the worst facilities for a bcs program. Even for them to get that bad angers me. This program was basically burned to the ground under a knowing eye. Even if you don't like Marrone for leavig and feel he still had work to do you should be thankful he sent a wake up call to everyone above him. There is still a lot thas not even being said.


-

We had an entire capital campaign during Doug Marrone's tenure where he had several opportunities to wine and dine donors alongside the AD to get this across to them.

Just saying.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Millhouse]

If I remember the for sale on his house correctly he seemed to have dumped a lot of money in that place. I think his intentions changed dramatically and found a golden parachute and took it.

"if you're going to make me live in Syracuse while you work 23 hours a day, the giant bags of money they're giving is paying for my new kitchen "

his house in amherst is pretty nice too. how long can any NFL coach expect to be around

 

[CuyahogaCuse]

you are still intentionally missing the point. the question was, is the program in a better place now then when marrone took over? what about this season shows you any improvement?

No, I'm not.

Doug Marrone no longer coaches here. Would his team have lost 0-56 to Georgia Tech? I doubt it. I lay this past weekend's loss firmly at the feet of our present coaching staff.

As many have said before me, this is not a rebuild from scratch. That was.

Marrone built a .500 program from a dung heap left by his predecessor. Right now, despite the learning curve, his successor is one game under .500 in ACC year one, with a blowout loss to a top 5 opponent, a conference road win and an epic What loss.

Let the season play out. But remember, the story of 2013 is not all on Doug. Schaefer and the team left a W on the table in New Jersey, and defensive game plans/schemes have resulted in lopsided scores in the other three losses. Not saying we win any of those games, but think the score spreads are on the new staff at this point.

 

[mizzou15]

I never saw Marronne as 'saving the program'. We were still compeing w/ the MAC for recruits, playing in a 3rd tier bowl nd never once did SU make the top 25 in his tenure. This staff does recruit better and is playing in the ACC a harder conference if u have not noticed. I think the potential is there to be better than Marrone we just have to see if it pans out.

 

[anomander]

We had an entire capital campaign during Doug Marrone's tenure where he had several opportunities to wine and dine donors alongside the AD to get this across to them.

Just saying.

Cheers,
Neil

Yes I was speaking the state of the program nbefore he arrived was in shambles in every way possibly


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[xc84]

The cynic would say he used us to get hc experience and parlayed that into the Bills gig.

It's not cynical to think he took this job to gain experience as a head coach so he was qualified for another head coach position (college or pros). I think he took the job to do the best with it he could and kept all options open.

 

[omniorange]

Yes I was speaking the state of the program nbefore he arrived was in shambles in every way possibly


-

Understood the history part of your point, with the "knowing eye" being Shaw I assume since Jake was somewhat handicapped by the college's accounting system.

I was more addressing this part of your post, "Even if you don't like Marrone for leaving and feel he still had work to do you should be thankful he sent a wake up call to everyone above him. There is still a lot thas not even being said."

I don't think Doug was solely responsible for that (the wake up call), myself. I believe TGD "knows" this as well and "knew" it prior to Marrone coming here. And while Marrone helped rebuild this program in terms of on the field results, he wasn't much interested in getting his supposed "knowledge" out to the donors who ultimately could make what he "knew" a reality.

Let's face it. Look around college athletics today and one can see that big time donors want interaction with the coaches not the ADs. The AD can set up the opportunities, but the coaches have to seal the deal. The coaches are the stars and donors have lots of projects they can spend their money on. If you snub them or ignore them or don't seem to want to have anything to do with them, they will go elsewhere where they are feeling the love.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Crusty]

I think it is unreasonable not to give Doug his due. He did turn the program around and while the .500 record and poor conference performances are fact, there is no factual basis to believe that he didn’t leave the program better than he found it. We can reasonably disagree about the degree but not about the direction.

I give Coach Marrone his due and am thankful for the job he did but, it is clear to me now, he was never going to be a Frank Beamer. He is an NFL coach and not College coach. Best wishes and now move on.

Shafer vs Marrone
These are two very different personalities. One wears it on his sleeve and the other hides it deep down. They are, however, very similar in certain things. They are both players’ coaches. They never throw their guys under the bus and while it is boring to hear them say “it’s on me” after every loss, I guarantee you that if your son played for either of them you would love them.

I doubt anyone would disagree that Shafer is more a college coach and Marrone more an NFL one. Shafer has spent his life in the college game and Doug has not. Experience dictates your perspective and I think these two are a good example of that.

Talent Evaluation – Anyone that doesn’t think Marrone is good – no, great – evaluator of football talent hasn’t been paying attention. It is the one thing at which he was head and shoulders above other coaches. From all accounts Shafer is a good evaluator as well - Marrone was on offensive players and Shafer defensive ones. I doubt Shafer will prove to be as good as Dougie at player evaluation but he doesn’t have to be if he proves to be a much better recruiter.

Player Development – Here, again, Marrone was excellent. A .500 coach in the Big East puts a good number of players in the NFL. I have no doubt that DM will turn around the Bills because, in the NFL, putting together a team requires superior talent evaluation. He has already started to show that ability at the pro level.

From all the evidence, Shafer also excels in this area as well but he is probably no Doug Marrone.

Game Planning - Doug was good at game planning but not great. He got outcoached by Big East coaches far too often. Sorry, but that is what I remember.

Shafer is a good defensive game planner – just ask Geno Smith and Teddy Bridgewater. The jury is still out on offense.

Game Management – This was not and is not a Marrone strength. He got better over the years at SU but he will never be considered to have been a top game manager. Being a good game planner requires that you buy into a certain approach and if things go wrong during the game it is hard to throw those strong feelings in the waste basket and do something different. Trying to wear down a team with the run game pays off in the 4th quarter making it tough to give up on that line until it is too late. That said, it seemed as if Doug’s team’s rarely made effective adjustments until halftime.

Shafer is an unknown so far but it looks like he needs some experience in this area. We will need to see how he does.

Overall Management – Doug is viewed as having taken a CEO approach and Shafer is trying to emulate him in that respect. However, while many think Doug was good at this I am not so sure, I think he gets good but not great marks. Marrone’s teams were very undisciplined and his special teams were terrible. (We lost two games in a row to Rutgers on a blocked extra point and a blocked FG.)

Doug put together a pretty good staff and made changes where necessary. He let the guys doing well run their business and jumped in where guys were no cutting it. I think he gets pretty good marks here.

Of course we don’t yet know about Shafer’s staff. The rest of the season will reveal a lot. While I like many of his hires, I just don’t know about Bullough and Reed. Most importantly Shafer needs to show the skill Doug demonstrated managing the staff, including making changes.

Recruiting – While Doug was great at finding the diamonds in the ruff, his recruiting classes were always big development ones. I don’t recall all that many of Doug’s freshman or even RS freshman seeing the field. All evidence suggests that Doug hated recruiting and that he tried to delegate it to his staff.

Just a word about the star system. We all know it is not perfect and there are plenty of 4 and 5 star busts and 2 and 3 star successes. However, having to live on finding players that are under recruited is living on the edge and defying the odds. Sooner or later the cupboard will be bare or the majority of your 2 stars will prove to be two stars. Tough way to live.

Shaf has been in the college game all his life and he gets it. His personality is more suited to recruiting than Doug’s and I think it shows. Shafer went out and hired George McDonald not because he thought he was the greatest OC, he hired him because he can recruit.

Personally, I think many are missing the big picture here. We are so anxious to get back to the top 25 (which is the football seal of approval) that we are impatient. This season will be what it will be - Shafer doesn't own this one - Marrone does. It doesn't matter - the recruiting class does.

Many don’t understand that a sea change is taking place. We have a HC that understands that old axiom, “90% of coaching is recruiting”. This staff is going to stock the shelves with more good players than we have had here in decades. We won’t need much patience as it started last year under very difficult circumstances.

Lastly, Shafer’s personality will prove to be much better at dealing with the administration, the press and the fans.

Doug is in the NFL, Shafer is our HC - all is right in the force.
Go Orange!
OK, Go Bills

 

[Millhouse]

The IPF timeline is not the same. Marrone was promised one would be built when he was hired, and not the "80 yards" in Manley, which is actually 60 yards of a regulation field width. It's also shared by every team at SU, and since it was a stop-gap measure, it's design was also extremely short-sighted. The committee was aware when he was hired that it was a need because the football team's speed and strength numbers were woeful.

chakka is right about a lot of points- the frustration built over his time because Marrone wasn't winning the recruiting battles he needed, and didn't feel his time should be spent fundraising, marketing, or worrying about the non-conf schedule and that the Ath Dept and SU was making his job harder. For example, the decision to go play at Missouri last year when Marrone was told he needed to make a bowl game before a contract extension would be discussed.

It's great to say that Beamer is out golfing with donors, but I wonder what Foster makes, or what their overall asst. coach salary pool is in comparison to SU. Look at the Dome attendance and you'll know that football is not generating enough revenue on its own to compete at this level. More resources need to be put into the fundraising efforts at SU. I know I've seen many comments on this board from people who say the 4-figure donors have been marginalized while SU chases 7 figure donors. Hopefully the ACC revenue is put to good use in areas behind the scenes.

As far as taking coaches, Shafer wasn't going to keep the same staff anyway so in a way, it made the transition easier. All the coaches last year were looking at other options because none of them were assured that they wouldn't be headed into this season as a lame-duck staff.

Let me also say that I don't want to turn this into a personal issue with anyone on the board. I think Marrone came here with the vision of restoring the program to the level we all want it to see, but the politics and other things took him away from what he loves to do, which is coach. He has the opportunity to now focus solely on coaching, and is paid very well to do so.

What the Syracuse fans need to do is support this team and Shafer, be thankful that Marrone got things back on track, and hope that the new Chancellor is more involved with making sure the AD is doing what needs to be done to get the program to continue to move forward.

I cannot stand the complaining about 80 yards.

There is no need at all for those extra 20 yards. No one kicks or throws the ball 90 yards. If you want to practice kicking off, back up, BFD

This 80 yards stuff is one of the reasons why I hate recruiting.

 

[MadNY3]

Whether Shafer can continue the rebuild remains to be seen.

Whether Shafer can do that is on Shafer, not Marrone. And Marrone "helped" by indirectly getting the indoor facility.

 

[anomander]

Understood the history part of your point, with the "knowing eye" being Shaw I assume since Jake was somewhat handicapped by the college's accounting system.

I was more addressing this part of your post, "Even if you don't like Marrone for leaving and feel he still had work to do you should be thankful he sent a wake up call to everyone above him. There is still a lot thas not even being said."

I don't think Doug was solely responsible for that (the wake up call), myself. I believe TGD "knows" this as well and "knew" it prior to Marrone coming here. And while Marrone helped rebuild this program in terms of on the field results, he wasn't much interested in getting his supposed "knowledge" out to the donors who ultimately could make what he "knew" a reality.

Let's face it. Look around college athletics today and one can see that big time donors want interaction with the coaches not the ADs. The AD can set up the opportunities, but the coaches have to seal the deal. The coaches are the stars and donors have lots of projects they can spend their money on. If you snub them or ignore them or don't seem to want to have anything to do with them, they will go elsewhere where they are feeling the love.

Cheers,
Neil

That's a totally fair point and I agree with it. But there was also a 4 year Grob era where there was still no movement in upgrading the facilities that Gross saw after. My point was Marrone really got the ball rolling in terms of making progress. I would have thought Gross was aware of this as well when he came aboard but the pressure to get it done just wasn't there.



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[CusefanATL]

I'm in this camp. Walking in, not quite sure he understood how much of a rebuild was needed and how much work it would take to get the fan base back on board. When he won moderately in 2010, I think he probably thought fans would be flooding back into the Dome. When it didn't happen in 2011, I think that was the last straw. And you just get the feeling that he never really loved the whole recruiting thing.

You could almost feel his demeanor change during his pressers through the years (And from what people have said about the Monday lunches the same holds). Seems like he really became frustrated over the years and just decided college wasn't really the place for him

only an idiot wouldnt know what kind of rebuild and hard work it would take.