Myths vs Reality | Syracusefan.com

Myths vs Reality

Cuseball

Starter
Joined
Nov 21, 2011
Messages
1,372
Like
4,781
(1) Our recruiting is falling apart, the Staff doesn’t know what they are doing, we are getting outworked on the recruiting trail:

  • Actually our recruiting is very consistent with where it’s always been. Based on looking at the 247 Recruiting team rankings over the past 9 years: Every couple years we get a top 10 class, sometimes a top 20, and mostly a top 40.
  • Looking at our last 9 recruiting classes (not counting this year as its not complete)
    • we have 3 top 10 classes (in 2015, 2013, 2010)
    • 2 top 20 (in 2016 and 2011)
    • 3 top 40 (2014, 2012 and 2008)
    • 1 in the high 100’s. (2009)
    • Our last 2 classes have been ranked #18 and #8. Our #18 ranking last year does not include 5th year transfers and transfers.
    • No matter how you cut it this does not point to evidence of a drop off

We are missing all our top targets which mean’s we are lazy, Jimmy is sleeping all the time, GMAC can’t do it etc.

  • Well history points towards us never getting top 10 kids and this year was no different. We targeted a lot more highly rated players than normal and struck out (Bamba, Duval, Richards, Diallo). If we didn’t try we would be criticized for not even attempting. These kids are tough to land and we don’t ever do it.
  • In the past 10 recruiting classes (2008-17) we have gotten:
    • zero top 10 players
    • 1 top 20 player (Fab in #14 in 2010)
    • 5 top 21-30 players (McCullough #21 in 2014, Dion #21 in 2010, Ennis #23 in 2013, Christmas #22 in 2011, Carter-Williams #26 in 2011,)
    • 6 top 31-50 players (Malachi #32 in 2015, Battle #37 in 2016 Kaleb #48 in 2014, Robey #40 in 2013, Grant #48 in 2012, Mookie #43 in 2008)
    • 8 top 51-100 players
    • 8 100+ players
  • Our class this year is ranked #66 and will likely move into the 30’s if w eland Ayala and Duarte. Again not counting what we come up with in the 5th year market.
  • Again, not sure we are seeing a downward trend which shows we are not getting the kids we typically get.

We can’t develop players properly because of some example pointing towards Rakeem Christmas taking 4 years

  • Since the 2010 recruiting class through 2015 we have recruited 20 high school players. Note: I am excluding 2016 because we don’t know what the current frosh will do NBA wise.
    • 7 of these 20 players are currently earning or earned an NBA paycheck (Malachi, McCullough, Ennis, Grant, Carter-Williams, Dion, Fab Melo).
    • That number will become 8 soon (hopefully not next year) when Lydon goes pro.
    • 8 out of 20 is a 40% NBA success rate on high school recruits is unbelievably high.
    • In this time we have also gone 2 for 2 with transfers earning NBA checks (Michael G and Wes Johnson).
  • Depends what your definition of developing is but if the goal of all these guys is the NBA it’s worked out amazingly well.
Our program is in dire straits, we are at a critical juncture, everyone should jump off a cliff and panic as if we were stuck in the American Athletic conference and playing UCF in rivalry games
  • Since 2010 (which represents a pretty fair recent sample) we have been hugely successful. Close to the top 5 in terms of success.
    • We are tied for 4th in tournament appearances with 6 out of 7
    • Tied for 4th in tournament wins with 15. Tied with UNC, Louisville, Michigan State. Kentucky has 23, Duke has 19 and Kansas has 16.
    • Tied for 6th in overall wins and winning percentage
    • Tied for 4th in Sweet Sixteen’s with 4
    • Tied for 3rd with Final Eights with 3
    • Tied for 2nd in Final Fours with 2
Please commence with critiquing the time frame used, the recruiting service used and everything else. Others have said already that you can not underestimate the impact of the sanctions on the team. We’ll be fine and trends point towards next year resulting in a top 20 recruiting class with more future NBA players.

RELAX!
 
(1) Our recruiting is falling apart, the Staff doesn’t know what they are doing, we are getting outworked on the recruiting trail:

  • Actually our recruiting is very consistent with where it’s always been. Based on looking at the . . . Recruiting team rankings over the past 9 years: Every couple years we get a top 10 class, sometimes a top 20, and mostly a top 40.
  • Looking at our last 9 recruiting classes (not counting this year as its not complete)
    • we have 3 top 10 classes (in 2015, 2013, 2010)
    • 2 top 20 (in 2016 and 2011)
    • 3 top 40 (2014, 2012 and 2008)
    • 1 in the high 100’s. (2009)
    • Our last 2 classes have been ranked #18 and #8. Our #18 ranking last year does not include 5th year transfers and transfers.
    • No matter how you cut it this does not point to evidence of a drop off

We are missing all our top targets which mean’s we are lazy, Jimmy is sleeping all the time, GMAC can’t do it etc.

  • Well history points towards us never getting top 10 kids and this year was no different. We targeted a lot more highly rated players than normal and struck out (Bamba, Duval, Richards, Diallo). If we didn’t try we would be criticized for not even attempting. These kids are tough to land and we don’t ever do it.
  • In the past 10 recruiting classes (2008-17) we have gotten:
    • zero top 10 players
    • 1 top 20 player (Fab in #14 in 2010)
    • 5 top 21-30 players (McCullough #21 in 2014, Dion #21 in 2010, Ennis #23 in 2013, Christmas #22 in 2011, Carter-Williams #26 in 2011,)
    • 6 top 31-50 players (Malachi #32 in 2015, Battle #37 in 2016 Kaleb #48 in 2014, Robey #40 in 2013, Grant #48 in 2012, Mookie #43 in 2008)
    • 8 top 51-100 players
    • 8 100+ players
  • Our class this year is ranked #66 and will likely move into the 30’s if w eland Ayala and Duarte. Again not counting what we come up with in the 5th year market.
  • Again, not sure we are seeing a downward trend which shows we are not getting the kids we typically get.

We can’t develop players properly because of some example pointing towards Rakeem Christmas taking 4 years

  • Since the 2010 recruiting class through 2015 we have recruited 20 high school players. Note: I am excluding 2016 because we don’t know what the current frosh will do NBA wise.
    • 7 of these 20 players are currently earning or earned an NBA paycheck (Malachi, McCullough, Ennis, Grant, Carter-Williams, Dion, Fab Melo).
    • That number will become 8 soon (hopefully not next year) when Lydon goes pro.
    • 8 out of 20 is a 40% NBA success rate on high school recruits is unbelievably high.
    • In this time we have also gone 2 for 2 with transfers earning NBA checks (Michael G and Wes Johnson).
  • Depends what your definition of developing is but if the goal of all these guys is the NBA it’s worked out amazingly well.
Our program is in dire straits, we are at a critical juncture, everyone should jump off a cliff and panic as if we were stuck in the American Athletic conference and playing UCF in rivalry games
  • Since 2010 (which represents a pretty fair recent sample) we have been hugely successful. Close to the top 5 in terms of success.
    • We are tied for 4th in tournament appearances with 6 out of 7
    • Tied for 4th in tournament wins with 15. Tied with UNC, Louisville, Michigan State. Kentucky has 23, Duke has 19 and Kansas has 16.
    • Tied for 6th in overall wins and winning percentage
    • Tied for 4th in Sweet Sixteen’s with 4
    • Tied for 3rd with Final Eights with 3
    • Tied for 2nd in Final Fours with 2
Please commence with critiquing the time frame used, the recruiting service used and everything else. Others have said already that you can not underestimate the impact of the sanctions on the team. We’ll be fine and trends point towards next year resulting in a top 20 recruiting class with more future NBA players.

RELAX!
Pure gold. It's hard to pick which subject I find the best. I'm going with "We are missing all our top targets which mean’s we are lazy, Jimmy is sleeping all the time, GMAC can’t do it etc." I'm not saying this is my favorite post ever but is definitely top 5.
 
While I agree that much of the handwringing is not grounded, especially when it comes to recruiting, the fact is that we are about to have our 3rd year in a row with double digit losses. Last year was covered up a bit by the FF run, but the 27 losses combined in 2015-16 and 2014-15 are the most in Boeheim's career. We'll almost certainly break the 3 year record this year, and that's a record we don't like seeing broken or even challenged (it's 37 from 2005-6 to 2007-8, for those who care). The good news is that there were the same complaints during that stint, but the team followed it up with maybe the best 5 year run in school history. So here's hoping that part of history repeats
 
SU Recruiting Rankings - 2006 to 2017 per 247 Sports

2006 – ranked # 14 P. Harris, M. Jones, Devin-McBride

2007 – ranked # 3 Flynn, Jackson, Ongenaet, S. Williams, D. Greene, Jardine

2008 – ranked #39 Kris Joseph, Mookie Wilson

2009 – ranked #190 Brandon Triche, Southerland, DaShonte Riley

2010 – ranked # 5 Fab Melo, Dion Waiters, C J Fair, Baye Moussa

2011 – ranked # 14 MCW, Cooney, Christmas

2012 – ranked # 39 Jerami Grant, Dajuan Coleman

2013 - ranked # 8 Tyler Ennis, Roberson, B J Johnson, Patterson, Chinoso

2014 – ranked # 33 C McCullough, Kaleb Joseph

2015 – ranked # 8 Malachi Richardson, Lydon, Howard, Diagne*

2016 – ranked # 17 Tyus Battle, Taurean Thompson, Matthew Moyer

2017 – ranked # 57 Brisset, Sidibe
 
SU Recruiting Rankings - 2006 to 2017 per . . . Sports

2006 – ranked # 14 P. Harris, M. Jones, Devin-McBride

2007 – ranked # 3 Flynn, Jackson, Ongenaet, S. Williams, D. Greene, Jardine

2008 – ranked #39 Kris Joseph, Mookie Wilson

2009 – ranked #190 Brandon Triche, Southerland, DaShonte Riley

2010 – ranked # 5 Fab Melo, Dion Waiters, C J Fair, Baye Moussa

2011 – ranked # 14 MCW, Cooney, Christmas

2012 – ranked # 39 Jerami Grant, Dajuan Coleman

2013 - ranked # 8 Tyler Ennis, Roberson, B J Johnson, Patterson, Chinoso

2014 – ranked # 33 C McCullough, Kaleb Joseph

2015 – ranked # 8 Malachi Richardson, Lydon, Howard, Diagne*

2016 – ranked # 17 Tyus Battle, Taurean Thompson, Matthew Moyer

2017 – ranked # 57 Brisset, Sidibe


Mookie Wilson was a legend
 
(1) Our recruiting is falling apart, the Staff doesn’t know what they are doing, we are getting outworked on the recruiting trail:

  • Actually our recruiting is very consistent with where it’s always been. Based on looking at the . . . Recruiting team rankings over the past 9 years: Every couple years we get a top 10 class, sometimes a top 20, and mostly a top 40.
  • Looking at our last 9 recruiting classes (not counting this year as its not complete)
    • we have 3 top 10 classes (in 2015, 2013, 2010)
    • 2 top 20 (in 2016 and 2011)
    • 3 top 40 (2014, 2012 and 2008)
    • 1 in the high 100’s. (2009)
    • Our last 2 classes have been ranked #18 and #8. Our #18 ranking last year does not include 5th year transfers and transfers.
    • No matter how you cut it this does not point to evidence of a drop off

We are missing all our top targets which mean’s we are lazy, Jimmy is sleeping all the time, GMAC can’t do it etc.

  • Well history points towards us never getting top 10 kids and this year was no different. We targeted a lot more highly rated players than normal and struck out (Bamba, Duval, Richards, Diallo). If we didn’t try we would be criticized for not even attempting. These kids are tough to land and we don’t ever do it.
  • In the past 10 recruiting classes (2008-17) we have gotten:
    • zero top 10 players
    • 1 top 20 player (Fab in #14 in 2010)
    • 5 top 21-30 players (McCullough #21 in 2014, Dion #21 in 2010, Ennis #23 in 2013, Christmas #22 in 2011, Carter-Williams #26 in 2011,)
    • 6 top 31-50 players (Malachi #32 in 2015, Battle #37 in 2016 Kaleb #48 in 2014, Robey #40 in 2013, Grant #48 in 2012, Mookie #43 in 2008)
    • 8 top 51-100 players
    • 8 100+ players
  • Our class this year is ranked #66 and will likely move into the 30’s if w eland Ayala and Duarte. Again not counting what we come up with in the 5th year market.
  • Again, not sure we are seeing a downward trend which shows we are not getting the kids we typically get.

We can’t develop players properly because of some example pointing towards Rakeem Christmas taking 4 years

  • Since the 2010 recruiting class through 2015 we have recruited 20 high school players. Note: I am excluding 2016 because we don’t know what the current frosh will do NBA wise.
    • 7 of these 20 players are currently earning or earned an NBA paycheck (Malachi, McCullough, Ennis, Grant, Carter-Williams, Dion, Fab Melo).
    • That number will become 8 soon (hopefully not next year) when Lydon goes pro.
    • 8 out of 20 is a 40% NBA success rate on high school recruits is unbelievably high.
    • In this time we have also gone 2 for 2 with transfers earning NBA checks (Michael G and Wes Johnson).
  • Depends what your definition of developing is but if the goal of all these guys is the NBA it’s worked out amazingly well.
Our program is in dire straits, we are at a critical juncture, everyone should jump off a cliff and panic as if we were stuck in the American Athletic conference and playing UCF in rivalry games
  • Since 2010 (which represents a pretty fair recent sample) we have been hugely successful. Close to the top 5 in terms of success.
    • We are tied for 4th in tournament appearances with 6 out of 7
    • Tied for 4th in tournament wins with 15. Tied with UNC, Louisville, Michigan State. Kentucky has 23, Duke has 19 and Kansas has 16.
    • Tied for 6th in overall wins and winning percentage
    • Tied for 4th in Sweet Sixteen’s with 4
    • Tied for 3rd with Final Eights with 3
    • Tied for 2nd in Final Fours with 2
Please commence with critiquing the time frame used, the recruiting service used and everything else. Others have said already that you can not underestimate the impact of the sanctions on the team. We’ll be fine and trends point towards next year resulting in a top 20 recruiting class with more future NBA players.

RELAX!

I respect your post -- it's well thought out. But nothing changes the fact that we have been decidedly below the standards of Syracuse basketball for almost three full calendar years. What we're experiencing in terms of the amount of losses each season and non-existence in the Top 25 is unprecedented during Boeheim's tenure.
 
SU Recruiting Rankings - 2006 to 2017 per . . . Sports

2006 – ranked # 14 P. Harris, M. Jones, Devin-McBride

2007 – ranked # 3 Flynn, Jackson, Ongenaet, S. Williams, D. Greene, Jardine

2008 – ranked #39 Kris Joseph, Mookie Wilson

2009 – ranked #190 Brandon Triche, Southerland, DaShonte Riley

2010 – ranked # 5 Fab Melo, Dion Waiters, C J Fair, Baye Moussa

2011 – ranked # 14 MCW, Cooney, Christmas

2012 – ranked # 39 Jerami Grant, Dajuan Coleman

2013 - ranked # 8 Tyler Ennis, Roberson, B J Johnson, Patterson, Chinoso

2014 – ranked # 33 C McCullough, Kaleb Joseph

2015 – ranked # 8 Malachi Richardson, Lydon, Howard, Diagne*

2016 – ranked # 17 Tyus Battle, Taurean Thompson, Matthew Moyer

2017 – ranked # 57 Brisset, Sidibe

Well the class of 2013 was a disappointment and 2014 was a flat out bust. But they have high numbers attached to them so all swell.
 
If I came up with an excuse list like this to my boss I wouldn't have a job after presenting it to him.

We've dropped the ball, bottom line.
 
way to respond with nothing substantial. You can have your opinion but as with many of your posts there is little substance

Sometimes no substance is better than false hope and asinine posts.

I get the defense but I'm sorry, it does nothing and sounds like excuses. What more is there to say?
 
Lol at Southerland and Triche at 190. 2nd and 3rd leading scorers on a 30 win Final Four team. Triche scored like 1500 points here. Exactly the type of players we are missing. Four year guys like them, Rak,and CJ who would always be the cornerstones of the program.
 
Some valid perspectives. Aside from a having a tough season, I think what is chapping some britches is the almost unbelievable all eggs in one basket recruiting approach with Green.
 
I just want a center and a point guard. You can find the other positions because they are so plentiful, but our lack of a true center and no point guard kills us.
 
We've simply become a tweener program.
We've has a spate of "very good" players who leave before they take us to the promised land.
We either need to get better one and doners (like Melo) or get guys who develop for three or four years (like Triche or Gbinije).
 
Some valid perspectives. Aside from a having a tough season, I think what is chapping some britches is the almost unbelievable all eggs in one basket recruiting approach with Green.
Nothing new for JB. Remember Sam Perkins and Kenny Anderson?
 
Just for your interest. The ESPNU "Terrific Top 25, Class of 2012" - published on February 8, 2010 - listed DaJuan Coleman, PF 280# NY, as their #1.
Andre Drummond and Shabazz Muhammad, both now making big bucks in the league, were listed as #2 and #3.

How you use your talent is also a factor.
 
(1) Our recruiting is falling apart, the Staff doesn’t know what they are doing, we are getting outworked on the recruiting trail:

  • Actually our recruiting is very consistent with where it’s always been. Based on looking at the . . . Recruiting team rankings over the past 9 years: Every couple years we get a top 10 class, sometimes a top 20, and mostly a top 40.
  • Looking at our last 9 recruiting classes (not counting this year as its not complete)
    • we have 3 top 10 classes (in 2015, 2013, 2010)
    • 2 top 20 (in 2016 and 2011)
    • 3 top 40 (2014, 2012 and 2008)
    • 1 in the high 100’s. (2009)
    • Our last 2 classes have been ranked #18 and #8. Our #18 ranking last year does not include 5th year transfers and transfers.
    • No matter how you cut it this does not point to evidence of a drop off

We are missing all our top targets which mean’s we are lazy, Jimmy is sleeping all the time, GMAC can’t do it etc.

  • Well history points towards us never getting top 10 kids and this year was no different. We targeted a lot more highly rated players than normal and struck out (Bamba, Duval, Richards, Diallo). If we didn’t try we would be criticized for not even attempting. These kids are tough to land and we don’t ever do it.
  • In the past 10 recruiting classes (2008-17) we have gotten:
    • zero top 10 players
    • 1 top 20 player (Fab in #14 in 2010)
    • 5 top 21-30 players (McCullough #21 in 2014, Dion #21 in 2010, Ennis #23 in 2013, Christmas #22 in 2011, Carter-Williams #26 in 2011,)
    • 6 top 31-50 players (Malachi #32 in 2015, Battle #37 in 2016 Kaleb #48 in 2014, Robey #40 in 2013, Grant #48 in 2012, Mookie #43 in 2008)
    • 8 top 51-100 players
    • 8 100+ players
  • Our class this year is ranked #66 and will likely move into the 30’s if w eland Ayala and Duarte. Again not counting what we come up with in the 5th year market.
  • Again, not sure we are seeing a downward trend which shows we are not getting the kids we typically get.

We can’t develop players properly because of some example pointing towards Rakeem Christmas taking 4 years

  • Since the 2010 recruiting class through 2015 we have recruited 20 high school players. Note: I am excluding 2016 because we don’t know what the current frosh will do NBA wise.
    • 7 of these 20 players are currently earning or earned an NBA paycheck (Malachi, McCullough, Ennis, Grant, Carter-Williams, Dion, Fab Melo).
    • That number will become 8 soon (hopefully not next year) when Lydon goes pro.
    • 8 out of 20 is a 40% NBA success rate on high school recruits is unbelievably high.
    • In this time we have also gone 2 for 2 with transfers earning NBA checks (Michael G and Wes Johnson).
  • Depends what your definition of developing is but if the goal of all these guys is the NBA it’s worked out amazingly well.
Our program is in dire straits, we are at a critical juncture, everyone should jump off a cliff and panic as if we were stuck in the American Athletic conference and playing UCF in rivalry games
  • Since 2010 (which represents a pretty fair recent sample) we have been hugely successful. Close to the top 5 in terms of success.
    • We are tied for 4th in tournament appearances with 6 out of 7
    • Tied for 4th in tournament wins with 15. Tied with UNC, Louisville, Michigan State. Kentucky has 23, Duke has 19 and Kansas has 16.
    • Tied for 6th in overall wins and winning percentage
    • Tied for 4th in Sweet Sixteen’s with 4
    • Tied for 3rd with Final Eights with 3
    • Tied for 2nd in Final Fours with 2
Please commence with critiquing the time frame used, the recruiting service used and everything else. Others have said already that you can not underestimate the impact of the sanctions on the team. We’ll be fine and trends point towards next year resulting in a top 20 recruiting class with more future NBA players.

RELAX!

Very interesting to see the data compiled.

The last "myth" you address, many are discussing the trend of the last 3 seasons and what our overall record and body of work has been. Nobody is referencing 2010-2013 as seasons that concerned us. Would you be able to provide where we rank in those categories for the last 2.5 seasons - the relevant time frame that many are referencing. And then compare that to the seasons from 2010 through 2013-14 to accurately gauge if there has been a drop off? I figure it's your time range you started with that gives a 4 season and then almost now 3 seasons split.

You make the case that recruiting is on par with prior years. If you think the recruiting and talent level has been on par then I think it's fair to ask, do you think JB has done a poor job coaching overall these last 3 seasons compared to prior years?
 
Last edited:
How about biggest bust ever class recruits. 2004 after we won National Championship.

Dayshawn Wright and Josh Wright. How about missing on Adonis Foyle and Andrae Blatche. We seemed to do OK.
 
The OP is very well thought out, with some interesting data.

The sky probably isn't falling. However, it doesn't invalidate the opinion that we are poorly positioned moving forward, with several potential key gaps on next year's roster, how we might be facing a position where we only have 7-9 scholarship players on next year's squad, how severely lacking at depth we are at PG, 2G, SF for next season, and how JB's impending retirement can be used against us on the recruiting trail in unprecedented ways.

I know, I know -- we still have the spring signing period, we could add 5th year transfers, etc. And undoubtedly we will, but our position for next year is extremely precarious--and this is coming off of a year where we might be facing JB's first losing season in four-plus decades at the helm.

The past few classes haven't set us up for success, no matter what the rankings were. We've lost numerous key players to early entry, several before expected [Ennis, Mali, Grant]--but where are the program guys / juniors / seniors that our program traditionally relies so heavily upon most years? What is up with our perimeter depth, which is usually such a focal point of our offensive system?

Unfortunately, those are big rocks that aren't addressed in the data your present.
 
Last edited:
While I agree that much of the handwringing is not grounded, especially when it comes to recruiting, the fact is that we are about to have our 3rd year in a row with double digit losses. Last year was covered up a bit by the FF run, but the 27 losses combined in 2015-16 and 2014-15 are the most in Boeheim's career. We'll almost certainly break the 3 year record this year, and that's a record we don't like seeing broken or even challenged (it's 37 from 2005-6 to 2007-8, for those who care). The good news is that there were the same complaints during that stint, but the team followed it up with maybe the best 5 year run in school history. So here's hoping that part of history repeats

Nothing against the BE, since I think they were the greatest basketball conference ever, but no way are we ever going to go 17-1 in the ACC. Recruiting is a great debate. You get someone like Malachi who overachieved and went pro before anyone expected him to. Would we still have the same issues at if he was still here. You could argue yes, unless he or Battle became great point guards. Or you get someone like DC who due to injuries never became as good as his ranking. There are so many factors involved: JAB retiring, losing scholarships, less coaches on the road, guys leaving early. No question that the Final Four last years masked some problems, but reality is that we went to the Final Four. No one can take that away from Syracuse. I definitely believe that the transition to Hop is not going to be eazy peazey and since we've been so spoiled that we are going to have these kind of moments. It's been 47 years since the last losing season but we still have the dome, we still have the ACC and we still have Syracuse University. Everyone needs to step away from the crack pipe and take a deep breath.
 
Nothing against the BE, since I think they were the greatest basketball conference ever, but no way are we ever going to go 17-1 in the ACC. Recruiting is a great debate. You get someone like Malachi who overachieved and went pro before anyone expected him to. Would we still have the same issues at if he was still here. You could argue yes, unless he or Battle became great point guards. Or you get someone like DC who due to injuries never became as good as his ranking. There are so many factors involved: JAB retiring, losing scholarships, less coaches on the road, guys leaving early. No question that the Final Four last years masked some problems, but reality is that we went to the Final Four. No one can take that away from Syracuse. I definitely believe that the transition to Hop is not going to be eazy peazey and since we've been so spoiled that we are going to have these kind of moments. It's been 47 years since the last losing season but we still have the dome, we still have the ACC and we still have Syracuse University. Everyone needs to step away from the crack pipe and take a deep breath.
I would like to not step away and take a deep breath.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
167,603
Messages
4,714,819
Members
5,909
Latest member
jc824

Online statistics

Members online
58
Guests online
1,997
Total visitors
2,055


Top Bottom