Offensive problems

[RF2044]

Saturday's loss to South Carolina was a deflating kick to the nuts. We sucked--and while USC's defense certainly had a lot to do with it, it was discouraging that we also shot ourselves in the foot a couple of important ways. Namely:

1. Our point guards sucked -- the flat out stunk up the joint. I know that some will point to how Howard played at the beginning of the second half to counter this claim, but really--he was generally poor. And Gillon looked like a deer in the headlights--he couldn't get the ball out of his hands fast enough. I hope that this was just big game jitters and that he'll settle down, otherwise he's going to be parked upon the pine if he can't be counted upon to deliver. These guys are BOTH capable of playing better than they did against South Carolina, and we need them to both be better. Some of those Gillon drives, he left his feet with nowhere to go. If you're not confident about making a play or taking a shot, then don't try to do too much. And it drives me nuts that both of these guys drive into the teeth of the defense and then make passes backwards to guys like Coleman and Chukwu who can't do anything with the ball there even if they catch it cleanly. Enough. Make no mistake, both of these guys stunk the joint out on Saturday, which contributed heavily to our loss, and also feeds into my second point...
2. Thus far, we display zero cohesion in terms of team offensive play -- Something that's worried me in the four admittedly impressive offensive early games we had was that everything we've seen thus far has been one-on-one, with not much ball movement. There's too much reliance in our offense on guys getting the ball, slowing down, and then trying to individually create their own shot [even a big like Taurean Thompson is guilty of this]. You can get away with that against lesser opponents. And it isn't difficult to make shots when you're up 20. But when the game's on the line, the team needs to function as one, otherwise things bog down. And to date, our execution of half court offensive sets has been subpar. Our point guards did us no favors with their play on Saturday, either, but that was only a symptom of the larger problem. If we are going to rely upon Lydon and White to have to create their own shots, then we're going to struggle all year long. The points guards simply have to do a better job of running the team's half court offense, and the team has to do a better job of finding the open man and making slick interior passes. Move the rock around.
3. Our free throw shooting sucks -- what's new? This seems to be a perennial problem. The four in a row that Frank missed when we were down 6 really hampered our ability to come back. And he wasn't the only one.
4. Missed bunnies --in a game where points were tough to come by, we pissed away a ton of scoring opportunities within the shadow of the basket. Can't afford to do that. I'm looking at you Tyler Roberson. I don't expect Chukwu to be much of a factor on offense, but when our guys get the ball at point blank range of the rim, they have to convert, or get fouled.

#2 worries me the most--by FAR--but we'll need to clean up ALL of these issues, or Tuesday's going to be another rough outing.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Don't you also get the feeling that we will be back to our normal 7.5 player rotation.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Good post RF like always.

Some simple observations from me:

- Gillon leaves his feet WAY too much. I said all game basic fundamentals were lacking. One of those is don't leave your feet because then you're stuck searching for a last second pass.
- Chukwu can't be out there against Wisconsin. Happ will eat him alive. I'm sorry but what did he do all offseason? We need Craig Forth to teach him to just keep his hands up.
- Battle. Don't remember a single play by him.
- Thompson missed a couple of open jumpers that were good shots. No issues with him taking these.
- When you don't have effective dribble penetration, due to tough opposing defense or just bad basketball from our guards (fouls on Frank didn't help), Roberson will have a hard time contributing a lot.
- Coleman played okay. We need to feed the post more.
- White will have some really bad nights shooting this year, but you will live with it because he'll have some games of 25+.
- Lydon needs to do a bit of everything, and need to look for him more inside especially on switches.
- Free throws from Frank will get better, but they were really tough against SC.

 

[orangefog]

I didn't expect Gillon to look like that at all this year. He seemed so smooth and poised until Saturday. Obviously, the competition was a huge step up, but he was a mess. I expect to see an entirely different team tomorrow night.

 

[PhatOrange]

Missing all the bunnies and shots that we generally make are why I don’t worry about it. This is still a new team and that was the first night out. Nerves looked like they were at play here and the sticky SC defense compounded it.

Gillon will be interesting to watch because lets face it, he’s taking a step up in the caliber of athlete and basketball players he is facing. Things he got away with at CSU won’t come so easy playing in P5.

 

[jordoo]

The PG play was our biggest issue. Lydon and White are good offensive players and great shooters but neither is good at creating offense. That needs to be done from the guard spot on this team. JB was basically taking turns pulling Frank and John for poor play until Frank picked up two quick fouls in that first half. Neither of them got the job done Saturday and Battle was invisible out there. Those 3 guys need to make things happen offensively by getting the ball moving, driving it and directing traffic.

I thought the game was pretty much lost early on. Howard made the adjustment to drive, he made a good drive which should have been an +1 but was called a charge. The player never got complete defensive positioning in front of frank and was already falling backwards. (that happens way too much in the NCAA) This wiped out the basket. Then we went to a press and Howard picked up a 2nd foul which was completely unnecessary. I believe at that point Howard allowed his emotions to get to him. Yes he started the second half much better, drove the ball and picked up a bunch of fouls but he was so worked up he missed all his FT's. At one point we had a good chance to get back into the game. We made it 6pts (I think) then gave up an easy basket down low. I think on our next two possessions Howard was fouled and missed all his FT's while SC extended the lead back to 10-12.

To me offensive identity/cohesiveness, interior defense and PG leadership seem to be our biggest issues. Lots of new parts so its a work in progress. I'm still high on this team as a collection of players although Saturday gave us a glimpse of how it will go if we don't get it together.

Oh and please someone show Lydon tape of how many open looks he passed up. I think he believes he has to be open by 10' to shoot this year. Lydon open with time to shot as the closeout comes would have been a much better shot than what we got most of the afternoon. He passed up at least 5 really good looks IMO, White would have shot everyone of those.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Good post RF like always.

Some simple observations from me:

- Gillon leaves his feet WAY too much. I said all game basic fundamentals were lacking. One of those is don't leave your feet because then you're stuck searching for a last second pass.
- Chukwu can't be out there against Wisconsin. Happ will eat him alive. I'm sorry but what did he do all offseason? We need Craig Forth to teach him not to just keep his hands up.
- Battle. Don't remember a single play by him.
- Thompson missed a couple of open jumpers that were good shots. No issues with him taking these.
- When you don't have effective dribble penetration, due to tough opposing defense or just bad basketball from our guards (fouls on Frank didn't help), Roberson will have a hard time contributing a lot.
- Coleman played okay. We need to feed the post more.
- White will have some really bad nights shooting this year, but you will live with it because he'll have some games of 25+.
- Lydon needs to do a bit of everything, and need to look for him more inside especially on switches.
- Free throws from Frank will get better, but they were really tough against SC.

that charge call on Frank really, really hurt.

 

[orangefog]

The PG play was our biggest issue. Lydon and White are good offensive players and great shooters but neither is good at creating offense. That needs to be done from the guard spot on this team. JB was basically taking turns pulling Frank and John for poor play until Frank picked up two quick fouls in that first half. Neither of them got the job done Saturday and Battle was invisible out there. Those 3 guys need to make things happen offensively by getting the ball moving, driving it and directing traffic.

I thought the game was pretty much lost early on. Howard made the adjustment to drive, he made a good drive which should have been an +1 but was called a charge. The player never got complete defensive positioning in front of frank and was already falling backwards. (that happens way too much in the NCAA) This wiped out the basket. Then we went to a press and Howard picked up a 2nd foul which was completely unnecessary. I believe at that point Howard allowed his emotions to get to him. Yes he started the second half much better, drove the ball and picked up a bunch of fouls but he was so worked up he missed all his FT's. At one point we had a good chance to get back into the game. We made it 6pts (I think) then gave up an easy basket down low. I think on our next two possessions Howard was fouled and missed all his FT's while SC extended the lead back to 10-12.

To me offensive identity/cohesiveness, interior defense and PG leadership seem to be our biggest issues. Lots of new parts so its a work in progress. I'm still high on this team as a collection of players although Saturday gave us a glimpse of how it will go if we don't get it together.

Oh and please someone show Lydon tape of how many open looks he passed up. I think he believes he has to be open by 10' to shoot this year. Lydon open with time to shot as the closeout comes would have been a much better shot than what we got most of the afternoon. He passed up at least 5 really good looks IMO, White would have shot everyone of those.

I would believe that Battle will come out fired up. He is too good to look lost like he did. Agreed on Lydon, dude needs to shoot. I thought in the second half, a good strategy was to attack, because we were getting fouled, and although we missed WAAAYYYYY too many free throws, it would at least get them in foul trouble and have us score some points with the clock not running. It seemed like it was our best offense, and then we stopped attacking and getting fouled.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Saturday's loss to South Carolina was a deflating kick to the nuts. We sucked--and while USC's defense certainly had a lot to do with it, it was discouraging that we also shot ourselves in the foot a couple of important ways. Namely:

1. Our point guards sucked -- the flat out stunk up the joint. I know that some will point to how Howard played at the beginning of the second half to counter this claim, but really--he was generally poor. And Gillon looked like a deer in the headlights--he couldn't get the ball out of his hands fast enough. I hope that this was just big game jitters and that he'll settle down, otherwise he's going to be parked upon the pine if he can't be counted upon to deliver. These guys are BOTH capable of playing better than they did against South Carolina, and we need them to both be better. Some of those Gillon drives, he left his feet with nowhere to go. If you're not confident about making a play or taking a shot, then don't try to do too much. And it drives me nuts that both of these guys drive into the teeth of the defense and then make passes backwards to guys like Coleman and Chukwu who can't do anything with the ball there even if they catch it cleanly. Enough. Make no mistake, both of these guys stunk the joint out on Saturday, which contributed heavily to our loss, and also feeds into my second point...
2. Thus far, we display zero cohesion in terms of team offensive play -- Something that's worried me in the four admittedly impressive offensive early games we had was that everything we've seen thus far has been one-on-one, with not much ball movement. There's too much reliance in our offense on guys getting the ball, slowing down, and then trying to individually create their own shot [even a big like Taurean Thompson is guilty of this]. You can get away with that against lesser opponents. And it isn't difficult to make shots when you're up 20. But when the game's on the line, the team needs to function as one, otherwise things bog down. And to date, our execution of half court offensive sets has been subpar. Our point guards did us no favors with their play on Saturday, either, but that was only a symptom of the larger problem. If we are going to rely upon Lydon and White to have to create their own shots, then we're going to struggle all year long. The points guards simply have to do a better job of running the team's half court offense, and the team has to do a better job of finding the open man and making slick interior passes. Move the rock around.
3. Our free throw shooting sucks -- what's new? This seems to be a perennial problem. The four in a row that Frank missed when we were down 6 really hampered our ability to come back. And he wasn't the only one.
4. Missed bunnies --in a game where points were tough to come by, we pissed away a ton of scoring opportunities within the shadow of the basket. Can't afford to do that. I'm looking at you Tyler Roberson. I don't expect Chukwu to be much of a factor on offense, but when our guys get the ball at point blank range of the rim, they have to convert, or get fouled.

#2 worries me the most--by FAR--but we'll need to clean up ALL of these issues, or Tuesday's going to be another rough outing.

good post. no arguments from me.

One of the things that shocked me the most when I watched the guards and wings coming out was that they weren't attempting to rub their guys off of a screen set by the bigs, or that the bigs weren't attempting to set those screens. It's way too tough for the point guard to pass to those two shooters when SC is denying and we aren't screening. Just surprised me to see them completely whiffing on screens.

 

[asj410]

Lydon open with time to shot as the closeout comes would have been a much better shot than what we got most of the afternoon. He passed up at least 5 really good looks IMO, White would have shot everyone of those.

And instead, he did his slow motion pump fake and drove into a cluster.

 

[Cusefan0307]

that charge call on Frank really, really hurt.

Tony Greene

 

[jordoo]

And instead, he did his slow motion pump fake and drove into a cluster.

I'd prefer the one dribble to the side and shot but the problem was he was too open for that to work. It was killing me watching bad offense and then seeing the ball get sent to Lydon who is open only to have him drive into the middle which was what SC wanted him to do.

 

[jordoo]

that charge call on Frank really, really hurt.

When the defender never has a vertical body position it should always be a block!!!!!!

 

[kirbivore]

Don't you also get the feeling that we will be back to our normal 7.5 player rotation.

 

[br801]

that charge call on Frank really, really hurt.

It sure did, and the quick foul he committed afterwards. But I'm very impressed (stunned actually) with his development since his freshman year. He may be the key to season, and might very well be the best player on this team come tournament time.

 

[orangefog]

I'd prefer the one dribble to the side and shot but the problem was he was too open for that to work. It was killing me watching bad offense and then seeing the ball get sent to Lydon who is open only to have him drive into the middle which was what SC wanted him to do.

I was hoping he would pump fake, get the guy in the air and then get fouled. Start using their aggressiveness against them and maybe they would have to tone it down a bit.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I was hoping he would pump fake, get the guy in the air and then get fouled. Start using their aggressiveness against them and maybe they would have to tone it down a bit.

Speaking of using their aggressive play against them, I didn't see a single backdoor cut during the game. Best way to take advantage of that style of play.

 

[orangefog]

Speaking of using their aggressive play against them, I didn't see a single backdoor cut during the game. Best way to take advantage of that style of play.

Yes, definitely. And like Jordoo said, the fake and then side step for the open shot. So many ways to take advantage of the overplay, and our guys were clueless. I am sure JB drilled them the past couple of days.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Yes, definitely. And like Jordoo said, the fake and then side step for the open shot. So many ways to take advantage of the overplay, and our guys were clueless. I am sure JB drilled them the past couple of days.

I was surprised JB didn't make that adjustment at halftime. I half think he was okay with us losing this one.

 

[rocklloyd]

for me, it's the guard play (that I think will get better, hoping it was big stage jitters) and the missed bunnies. I think free throws will improve.

 

[jordoo]

I was surprised JB didn't make that adjustment at halftime. I half think he was okay with us losing this one.

I know he is all about winning each game he coaches but like you I have a suspicion that he wanted this team to learn some tough lessons, especially on offense.

 

[SoBristol]

Agree with the issues raised by the OP, but the biggest problem is lack of points in the paint. Lack of transition baskets; lack of put-backs; lack of finishes of drives. South Carolina got more than their share of easy finishes -- we got practically nothing inside.

 

[orangefan13]

was rewatching the replay and the first 4 minutes which I never do haven't done it in 10 years. Anyway it went like this...
--------------------------------------------------------
sc hits a three.
Howard tried to push it inside early twice first two possessions. not good possessions.
White then loss the ball at halfcourt the next possession.

in comes gillon and throws two lob passes that get intercepted way behind the three point line, then one at halfcourt. similar to long passes against a full court press at half court not pretty.

we finally get our first good look at the basket at the 17 minute mark as dajuan finds his way inside off a howard drive.

I couldn't tell who was playing center dajuan or lydon the next possesion.

Howard comes down and almost loses ball at halfcourt calls timeout.
Howard very very frustrated emotional at first timeout (16:42)

next possession howard palms ball for 15 seconds and charges the lane (the guy was way outside the circle but arguably still moving.

meanwhile south carolina gets what looks like another good look their 7th of the game offensive board and their 8th. we have had one good look so far.
-----------------------------------------
After that our pg's started to settle down a bit. But still had troubles, and we started to get some looks on the perimeter in the first half, we passed up more then I thought.

What to learn from this is we really needed some adjusting bigtime. We just played one of the top 5 defensive teams in the country after having no medium test we were playing 3's and monmouth a 4, and just jumped to playing a 9.5, with no 5-9 to give us perspective. Arguably JB's toughest early season test in over a decade. Had we played one of the top 5 defensive teams early on back in the ennis year we may not have been 25-0. Congrats to south carolina they can beat anyone in the country imo.

Imo I think Thompson is closer to breaking out then battle right now, and that is not a knock. I would be surprised if hes not getting minutes all year. He may be the best one on one scorer on this team by march, not in terms of ppg, but putting pressure on his man in tough half court possessions. He really is a true baller with a very very bright future. He needs to find his most comfortable place in the halfcourt this year and capitalize off it like a 4th scoring option, and continue to work on finishing dishes in the lower post. Even more so with Lydon on the perimeter, so lydon can flash from underneath to the three point line more and more.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

was rewatching the replay and the first 4 minutes which I never do haven't done it in 10 years. Anyway it went like this...
--------------------------------------------------------
sc hits a three.
Howard tried to push it inside early twice first two possessions. not good possessions.
White then loss the ball at halfcourt the next possession.

in comes gillon and throws two lob passes that get intercepted way behind the three point line, then one at halfcourt. similar to long passes against a full court press at half court not pretty.

we finally get our first good look at the basket at the 17 minute mark as dajuan finds his way inside off a howard drive.

I couldn't tell who was playing center dajuan or lydon the next possesion.

Howard comes down and almost loses ball at halfcourt calls timeout.
Howard very very frustrated emotional at first timeout (16:42)

next possession howard palms ball for 15 seconds and charges the lane (the guy was way outside the circle but arguably still moving.

meanwhile south carolina gets what looks like another good look their 7th of the game offensive board and their 8th. we have had one good look so far.
-----------------------------------------
After that our pg's started to settle down a bit. But still had troubles, and we started to get some looks on the perimeter in the first half, we passed up more then I thought.

What to learn from this is we really needed some adjusting bigtime. We just played one of the top 5 defensive teams in the country after having no medium test we were playing 3's and monmouth a 5 and just jumped to playing a 9.5, with no 5-9 to give us perspective. Arguably JB's toughest early season test in over a decade. Had we played one of the top 5 defensive teams early on back in the ennis year we may not have been 25-0. Congrats to south carolina they can beat anyone in the country imo.

Imo I think Thompson is closer to breaking out then battle right now, and that is not a knock. I would be surprised if hes not getting minutes all year. He may be the best one on one scorer on this team by march, not in terms of ppg, but putting pressure on his man in tough half court possessions. He really is a true baller with a very very bright future. He needs to find his most comfortable place in the halfcourt this year and capitalize off it like a 4th scoring option, and continue to work on finishing dishes in the lower post. Even more so with Lydon on the perimeter.

Where you been Skippy?

 

[orangefan13]

hiding out
love this time of year. mind gets lost on syracuse basketball for countless hours