Questions for Knicks fans

[doc05]

1. Never did.
2. No.

 

[sufandu]

You suggested he never learned how to play basketball; I was mocking that notion.

Is he above reproach? I think he is a player with elite skills and ability that has not maximized his success largely because he has not learned to or has actively refused to play within a team concept. Mock all you want. The success of the teams he's played for speak for themselves. As others have stated, players that have gone elsewhere have done well after leaving. And it's not as if he hasn't had the chance to choose his teammates. He has. Twice.

I'm a Carmelo fan, even if you don't believe it. That's why it's frustrating for me to see him not have the same team success as his peers, especially when, in my opinion, some of the lack of success is his own doing. I like seeing the players I like do well. I think all fans do. If he is enjoying playing in NYC and he enjoys playing ISO ball, that's his choice and he gets to make a lot of money doing it. If his goal is to win an NBA championship, criticism is warranted.

 

[OrangeDW]

Is he above reproach? I think he is a player with elite skills and ability that has not maximized his success largely because he has not learned to or has actively refused to play within a team concept. Mock all you want. The success of the teams he's played for speak for themselves. As others have stated, players that have gone elsewhere have done well after leaving. And it's not as if he hasn't had the chance to choose his teammates. He has. Twice.

I'm a Carmelo fan, even if you don't believe it. That's why it's frustrating for me to see him not have the same team success as his peers, especially when, in my opinion, some of the lack of success is his own doing. I like seeing the players I like do well. I think all fans do. If he is enjoying playing in NYC and he enjoys playing ISO ball, that's his choice and he gets to make a lot of money doing it. If his goal is to win an NBA championship, criticism is warranted.

1. His teams made the playoffs his first 10 years in the league.
2. He led Denver to the biggest single season turnaround as far as W/L record goes in NBA history in his rookie year.
3. He led Denver to the WCF. That doesn't happen often.
4. He led the Knicks to 54 wins, their best season in 15 years.
5. He's averaging 4.2 APG...what does he have to do to get people who seemingly don't watch the games to stop talking about "ISO Ball" and being a "ballhog" or "ballstopper" or whatever?

 

[two3zone]

5. He's averaging 4.2 APG...what does he have to do to get people who seemingly don't watch the games to stop talking about "ISO Ball" and being a "ballhog" or "ballstopper" or whatever?

Do you watch the games? Do you know what ISO ball is? To be honest, we probably don't win the NC without him playing the way he plays.

Carmelo Anthony is a legend in Syracuse for many many many many reasons and I respect the hell out of that and cannot be more thankful for everything he brought our community but it doesn't cloud my judgement. He plays the NBA game of the mid 90s to the early 00s, he plays a different style.

Can you honestly see him playing in a system that thrives on the extra pass?

 

[sufandu]

1. His teams made the playoffs his first 10 years in the league.
2. He led Denver to the biggest single season turnaround as far as W/L record goes in NBA history in his rookie year.
3. He led Denver to the WCF. That doesn't happen often.
4. He led the Knicks to 54 wins, their best season in 15 years.
5. He's averaging 4.2 APG...what does he have to do to get people who seemingly don't watch the games to stop talking about "ISO Ball" and being a "ballhog" or "ballstopper" or whatever?

He did all of those things. He is a great talent... talented enough that he should have a history of more playoff success after 12 years in the league. Echoing what two3zone said, I'll always be a fan for what he did for us in 02-03 and the excitement he brought, but I don't have to watch him for very long to see how his 32 jab steps as he decides what he wants to do, kill player movement off the ball. Guys stand around waiting for him to do his thing. And his 42.6% shooting this year is way too low for someone as talented as him. Anytime someone with his ability shoots that low it means your taking too many bad shots. Instead of taking a bad shot, give the ball up or create a better shot for someone else. The reason I criticize him is that I think for most of his career he was one of the top 5 talented players in the league and his team success does not bear that out.

 

[br801]

He did all of those things. He is a great talent... talented enough that he should have a history of more playoff success after 12 years in the league. Echoing what two3zone said, I'll always be a fan for what he did for us in 02-03 and the excitement he brought, but I don't have to watch him for very long to see how his 32 jab steps as he decides what he wants to do, kill player movement off the ball. Guys stand around waiting for him to do his thing. And his 42.6% shooting this year is way too low for someone as talented as him. Anytime someone with his ability shoots that low it means your taking too many bad shots. Instead of taking a bad shot, give the ball up or create a better shot for someone else. The reason I criticize him is that I think for most of his career he was one of the top 5 talented players in the league and his team success does not bear that out.

Denver only averaged about 48 wins per year and reached the playoffs every season while Carmelo was there. What a shameful legacy of losing.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Do you watch the games? Do you know what ISO ball is? To be honest, we probably don't win the NC without him playing the way he plays.

Carmelo Anthony is a legend in Syracuse for many many many many reasons and I respect the hell out of that and cannot be more thankful for everything he brought our community but it doesn't cloud my judgement. He plays the NBA game of the mid 90s to the early 00s, he plays a different style.

Can you honestly see him playing in a system that thrives on the extra pass?

Mark Jackson was playing ISO ball with Klay and Steph before Kerr took over. They averaged the least number of passes in the league when Jackson was there.

Melo actually plays better in the Olympic setting than he does the NBA, and that system relies on the extra pass.

Not sure if he's ever had a coach that reinforced that in him at the NBA level.

No NBA team is winning anything with Jose Calderon at PG.

 

[OrangeDW]

He did all of those things. He is a great talent... talented enough that he should have a history of more playoff success after 12 years in the league. Echoing what two3zone said, I'll always be a fan for what he did for us in 02-03 and the excitement he brought, but I don't have to watch him for very long to see how his 32 jab steps as he decides what he wants to do, kill player movement off the ball. Guys stand around waiting for him to do his thing. And his 42.6% shooting this year is way too low for someone as talented as him. Anytime someone with his ability shoots that low it means your taking too many bad shots. Instead of taking a bad shot, give the ball up or create a better shot for someone else. The reason I criticize him is that I think for most of his career he was one of the top 5 talented players in the league and his team success does not bear that out.

Thing is you're jumping to conclusions on why his % is low and it's not even really accurate. He's shooting a career low because he doesn't have the lift to finish as well as he used to and he gets like ZERO easy layups or dunks these days - a function of both his declining athleticism and his teams lack of guard play and transition offense. If anything his shot selection has been better than ever this year. His knee is still hampering him(he's had two MRI's recently).

 

[Knicks411]

1. His teams made the playoffs his first 10 years in the league.
2. He led Denver to the biggest single season turnaround as far as W/L record goes in NBA history in his rookie year.
3. He led Denver to the WCF. That doesn't happen often.
4. He led the Knicks to 54 wins, their best season in 15 years.
5. He's averaging 4.2 APG...what does he have to do to get people who seemingly don't watch the games to stop talking about "ISO Ball" and being a "ballhog" or "ballstopper" or whatever?

Only going to quibble with #2; I think Bird and Duncan beat that?

 

[OrangeDW]

Do you watch the games? Do you know what ISO ball is? To be honest, we probably don't win the NC without him playing the way he plays.

Carmelo Anthony is a legend in Syracuse for many many many many reasons and I respect the hell out of that and cannot be more thankful for everything he brought our community but it doesn't cloud my judgement. He plays the NBA game of the mid 90s to the early 00s, he plays a different style.

Can you honestly see him playing in a system that thrives on the extra pass?

I do watch the games and I do know what "Iso ball" is. Melo has been making the extra pass all year. He would absolutely thrive in a system that thrives on the "extra pass". People like to credit the GS "system"...well it takes talent for that to work. And I don't care about the Mark Jackson Warriors...they didn't have Draymond(well they did but he was a rookie) who is the 2nd biggest key to that offense. Having the best PG and a top 3 SG helps. The "system" wouldn't exactly look the same with Jose Calderon and Aaron Afflalo. But yeah, it's because of Melo's jab step that the Knicks aren't good. SMH.

Knicks are like 0-8 without Melo this year, by the way. Knicks won 54 games 3 years ago where the Knicks "ball movement" was a big story, and they hit a ton of 3s...but yeah, Melo's game only would've worked in 1998. You're not winning it all in the NBA without 3 all star level players...or 2 of the absolute best in the league with solid role players.

 

[OrangeDW]

Only going to quibble with #2; I think Bird and Duncan beat that?

You're right. Denver had the biggest turnaround ever for a team that won fewer than 20 games the previous season. But there have been a few bigger overall turnarounds.

 

[nycfan]

1. His teams made the playoffs his first 10 years in the league.
2. He led Denver to the biggest single season turnaround as far as W/L record goes in NBA history in his rookie year.
3. He led Denver to the WCF. That doesn't happen often.
4. He led the Knicks to 54 wins, their best season in 15 years.
5. He's averaging 4.2 APG...what does he have to do to get people who seemingly don't watch the games to stop talking about "ISO Ball" and being a "ballhog" or "ballstopper" or whatever?

Glad you mentioned this . The transformation this year in Melo's game has really been enjoyable to see. The 4.2 assists per game is by far a career-high (3.8 was the previous high 9 years ago). But it's also been increasing each month as he gets comfortable with the games of all his new teammates this year (as most of you know, 3 of the 5 starters are in their first season with the Knicks). Take a look at the averages by month:

Nov 3.0 apg
Dec 4.1 apg
Jan 5.2 apg
Feb 5.3 apg

Also, in 6 of his last 12 games he has had 7 assists or more. By comparison, last year he had 7+ assists in just 2 games the entire season.

 

[br801]

Thing is you're jumping to conclusions on why his % is low and it's not even really accurate. He's shooting a career low because he doesn't have the lift to finish as well as he used to and he gets like ZERO easy layups or dunks these days - a function of both his declining athleticism and his teams lack of guard play and transition offense. If anything his shot selection has been better than ever this year. His knee is still hampering him(he's had two MRI's recently).

He really was shooting the ball well prior to turning that ankle. Still, he's just a few hot games away from being back to 44 or 45% for the season. His rebounding and assist numbers have never been better, and his defensive play has been very good this season.

 

[Knicks411]

Melo is moving the ball pretty much the best he ever has this year. If he was shooting at closer to his normal level he'd be having a hell of a year. The knee thing is a little worrisome long term to me.

 

[reedny]

Do you watch the games? Do you know what ISO ball is? To be honest, we probably don't win the NC without him playing the way he plays.

Carmelo Anthony is a legend in Syracuse for many many many many reasons and I respect the hell out of that and cannot be more thankful for everything he brought our community but it doesn't cloud my judgement. He plays the NBA game of the mid 90s to the early 00s, he plays a different style.

Can you honestly see him playing in a system that thrives on the extra pass?

Yes. He's a very good passer. The problem's not his passing ability, it's the inability of his team-mates to make shots when he gets them the ball. To suggest his game is tired or 'yesterday' is ridiculous. After a decade plus in the league, he still got huge interest as a FA and hand-picked his spot. He's making his 9th all-star appearance. He's an amazingly consistent scorer and underrated defender, who's averaged over 20 ppg every year he's been a pro. In fact, his numbers are comparable to, or even better than, some of the best SF's in the game including younger phenoms like George and Leonard.

Not sure where you're coming from here.

 

[longislandcuse]

No

No

Hate the triangle.

Waiting 2 years for the off chance of signing Westbrook is not a plan.

Our impact role players are complete trash and also need to be revamped aside from Galloway and Lopez.

He already showed terrible judgment in hiring Fisher.

 

[sufandu]

Thing is you're jumping to conclusions on why his % is low and it's not even really accurate. He's shooting a career low because he doesn't have the lift to finish as well as he used to and he gets like ZERO easy layups or dunks these days - a function of both his declining athleticism and his teams lack of guard play and transition offense. If anything his shot selection has been better than ever this year. His knee is still hampering him(he's had two MRI's recently).

So you're proving my point. Just as he starts to "get it" he's getting too old to take advantage of it. And there's no guarantee his teammates are going to get any better. He had two opportunities to where he was in complete control of who his teammates were going to be and he chose not to maximize them. For a guy that has been a top 5 talent in the league for most of his career he has not maximized his opportunities.

 

[sufandu]

Denver only averaged about 48 wins per year and reached the playoffs every season while Carmelo was there. What a shameful legacy of losing.

So a 58% winning percentage and getting into the playoffs (in a league where half the teams do) while almost never making it out of the first round is elite? I guess I have a different definition of elite. FWIW, the nuggets made the playoffs 3 years in a row after the trade and won more games in 12'-13' than they did any year with Melo. Was he a huge piece of their turnaround? Absolutely. Was he the sole reason? No. Did he maximize his natural ability while he was young enough to do it by evolving his game to make his teams better? I don't think so. He may be doing it now, but he's getting to old to take full advantage of it. It needed to have 5 years ago. An athlete's window is small. The best maximize their god given gifts by maturing their game while their in their prime. I don't think he did that and he missed out on his opportunities to play with the better organizations when he had the choice. It was his choice, so that's fine, but nobody can objectively say it's anyone elses fault he hasn't been in a better position to win an NBA championship.

 

[OrangeDW]

So you're proving my point. Just as he starts to "get it" he's getting too old to take advantage of it. And there's no guarantee his teammates are going to get any better. He had two opportunities to where he was in complete control of who his teammates were going to be and he chose not to maximize them. For a guy that has been a top 5 talent in the league for most of his career he has not maximized his opportunities.

"Get it"? He's averaging 21 and 4...in the past he's averaged 28 and 3...what didn't he "get" before? He could get to the rim easier before. Now he can't, so he picks his spots more . He's ALWAYS been the best scorer on his team and often hasn't had good teammates to pass to. If you actually watch the games, he usually makes the right basketball plays.

As far as choosing his teammates, did we forget that he chose to go to NY to play with MVP Candidate Amare Stoudamire? I guess it's Carmelo's fault that Amare's body fell apart shortly after Melo got there, too? Perhaps that's why he didn't go to Chicago to play with Rose...he'd already been burned once by a star teammate falling apart, why do it again?