Red or Players, which is it

[Sbucketball]

It's his first year as a head coach, he had a Maui draw with several top 10 teams, he's trying to change the culture and style of the team, he lost a star center to a bidding war, and had to dismiss a malcontent.

We're 15-8. Did you know that we've only been better than 15-8 after 23 games one time in the past 9 seasons? That would be 16-7 in 2018-2019.

I'm gonna go ahead and give him some more time. Unreasonable as it may sound.

Well put. While there were some things that caused me concern and some things he needs to improve upon, no one expected him to be Bill Self in his first year ever as a HC. And coaches in this era earn their money in March--whether in the tournament or in the portal. His response to this year will tell us a lot.

 

[MikeSU02]

JJ is pretty much in that same boat.

Ya. Hes on the list as well.

 

[rrlbees]

Disagree with you on Bell. I think most of us thought he would start because he's our only real legit outside threat, and that Chance would come off the bench, because you could plug and play him at PG, SG or SF depending on who's not playing well. Q has sort of filled in with that role. But Chance would have given us another option.

I said the exact same thing further up.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I don't see why it can't be both.

The issues i imagined we'd have if we hired from within are there. They're coaching issues. One, the most glaring, is that we can't play m2m defense very well. Basic principles and basic execution is missing. These kids played it in high school. So, either they chose to come to a zone school because they weren't good at it, or they don't have the tools and resources at SU to play it at a D1 college level. Either way, we see it done the right way even at the schools we play in our pre-league games, just not with high-level talent.

Secondly, the offense. We don't do the simple things to make it easier to get better, more efficient shots. We are still overly iso-dependent. And most of the time, it seems like Judah is just going to dribble for 90% of the shot clock to see if he can create one of his foul flails, and then if he gets tired or stilted, he'll give it up for someone else to heave a three. We don't set picks for two shooters who can't create shots for themselves, in Bell and Taylor. That's bizarre and in-ex-cus-a-ble!

We keep shoehorning 'lithe' forwards into the Center position. We get some 'cute' results, and somehow the staff ignores just how easy it is for the opposition to get to the basket and we just destroy our own already bad odds at rebounds.

Simple stuff. Couldn't foresee McLeod's injury, i guess, but a good team would have a better Plan B. Our Plan B seems to also have some physical issues, so maybe we couldn't foresee having to go to Plan C, but...

I 'like' Red, but like many of us said, how can you have confidence in a staff that was in place during the long slide downslope? They have the same brains and the same ideas. They were the ones coaching the various positions for the last umpteen years. We needed a new start, not a new half-measure.

Can it be turned around? Sure. Half of the problem is talent. If they can convince high level players to come next year to replace those who leave, then sure, we could still have a significant turnaround, even with those same brains. We could have been significantly better if only Jesse had stayed. One player away from making the NCAAs. But, the portal players will have seen who we are now, and maybe we don't have that sheen we used to have. Maybe this was a test year for Red, and maybe they won't like what they are seeing. Who knows what's in the mind of a 20-year old. We can't know. We don't have the technology.

 

[wiCuse]

Autry has my support. At the same time, I'm getting frustrated that he allows the lack of hustle and poor decision making at this point in the season. This has nothing to do with our lack of talent. Set the standard and if guys aren't meeting it, show them the bench.

 

[emjkay]

So excited when new coach A.A announced we'd be seeing mostly M2M and all those open three's that made us cringe that last 10-12 years might go away. They're still haunting us,,,,Coach or Players??

 

[CardiacCuse]

red has way more access to getting recruits than JB had recently

recruits want to play for Red! they want him as their coach!

these guys like chance, jj, etc...they didnt come bc of JB. lets be real.

as soon as JB was gone they flocked.

so...giving red a pass due to not having the talent and doing better than recent seasons rings hollow to me.

he took a bunch of swings in the portal and ...what does he have to show for those choices?

he had the chance to shape the roster in whatever image he wanted to this offseason ...and messed it up.

yeah some bad luck

I just hope he learns from this and does better next offseason.

 

[BomberOrange]

Both of these guys start:
Justin Taylor career PER/TS%: 9.5/47.5%
Chris Bell career PER/TS% (even with last night's flame throwing): 11.4/53.6%

Red has to grow. But let's be real.

Yeah, what he said…..lol. I don’t know what all these acronyms are, and don’t care, but from watching the games these two guys just aren’t starters on most P4 teams. Bench players to provide a spark, yes, but not starters. To me it’s talent….but we don’t know what Red can do with talent. So this question really can’t be answered until we get that. Yes some coaches “coach up” players but I’m willing to give Red a pass in year one. I’m not really not sure who expected more but to me the NIT was the ceiling for this team considering the roster.

 

[baggerbob]

Yeah, what he said…..lol. I don’t know what all these acronyms are, and don’t care, but from watching the games these two guys just aren’t starters on most P4 teams. Bench players to provide a spark, yes, but not starters. To me it’s talent….but we don’t know what Red can do with talent. So this question really can’t be answered until we get that. Yes some coaches “coach up” players but I’m willing to give Red a pass in year one. I’m not really not sure who expected more but to me the NIT was the ceiling for this team considering the roster.

If Jessie hadn' t left so late the McLeod scholorship doesn't happen.
Probably would have gotten another forward.

 

[two3zone]

Glad to see the results and the comments, didn’t think it would be this lopsided.

 

[LAorange44]

I support Red and hope he succeeds. But we’ve been spoiled by having a top 10 coach for decades. It is unrealistic to expect Red to be JB in year one. JB coached 1,500+ games and Red has coached just north of 20. We are part of the middle class of coaches. Here’s what I’ve noticed.

While the players are what they are, they haven’t gotten better as the season has gone on. Our defense has been getting worse each game since the Pitt road game. Likewise, our offense is abysmal and below average for college ball. While our offense has been slightly less abysmal the last few games, we are hardly rolling into February and March in peak form, another hallmark of the Boeheim teams. JB’s teams always improved to the point where we were dangerous. Not seeing it with this team despite the strong start and conference wins so far. Louisville, Wake, Clemson all seem better than they were a month ago.

The 20.8 average margin of loss is disturbing. JB’s last 3 teams had average loss margins of 10-13 pts. Is the current crop of players that much worse than the Boeheim Bros and Joe Girard years? No. Nor is the ACC that much better. I think most believed we were coming into this year with an upgraded roster due to Red’s portal wizardry. What I think the difference in loss differential highlights is JB’s expertise in in-game adjustments, unrelenting competitiveness, and as a motivator. Red and the current staff in their current ability are a step down from JB in that regard. But again, we are comparing a first year coach to an all time great.

So it’s probably a little of both. Our players aren’t as good as we had hoped. And the team isn’t competiting as hard as our previous teams have, which I think falls on coaching. It is what it is and showcases how hard it is to replace a legend.

 

[swish7]

Won’t vote because there’s a 3rd option, new coach, good talent, team needs to gel. For instance I question Jim’s desire to be a team player. good talent there, coaches are trying to correct, Jim not interested. It’s kind of unfair to try to put it all in buckets. Sure Reds staff needs to get better, but they are short at 5, and maybe Benny adds by subtracting.

Yeah. Not voting bc the options too extreme.

The talent is OK, but the chemistry is bad, and the skills are neither complete nor complimentary.

As to Red, he's only been OK. Offense has no identity and they play terrible D. D was to be his signature as a coach, and frankly it's not working. You can teach D.

Not sure why 15-8 is some new high standard?..what's happened to us?

Dogfight w some 15 loss team.
The schedule is about to get nasty.

 

[BillSU]

Yeah. Not voting bc the options too extreme.

The talent is OK, but the chemistry is bad, and the skills are neither complete nor complimentary.

As to Red, he's only been OK. Offense has no identity and they play terrible D. D was to be his signature as a coach, and frankly it's not working. You can teach D.

Not sure why 15-8 is some new high standard?..what's happened to us?

Dogfight w some 15 loss team.
The schedule is about to get nasty.

What’s happened to us is the team and Red are replacing a legend.

The talent is – eh.

A first year coach – you gentlemen could cut him a little slack.

There is no on the brink of a really great player here. We’ve been used to that. We miss that.

No vote.

Let’s see what happens next year.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Why can’t it be both?

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I'm not optimistic about the rest of the season but we should have an OK record.

His portal guys were pretty highly rated and have let him down big time. We'll see next year. I don't think the ACC will get crazy hard overnight if he can improve the team to be better than .500 in the ACC and actually compete with ranked teams I will be happy. Years 3/4 I want to actually be legit.

 

[UpstateSM]

Yes

 

[phil77]

I agree with both...

Talent level is awful and Red needs to take some of the blame in this. The issues were clear last year and those issues still remain. If it is possible for Red to dump the entire team and refill the roster I think we would be better off. We are in dire need of new leaders and new players on this team. We need a complete overhaul.

Coaching hasn't been there. Our players look clueless at times on both ends of the court. We have a team full of selfish players outside of Brown, nobody is willing to make the consistent winning plays that are needed to win at an elite level. All of our players are more worried about getting theirs, making highlight plays, and celebrating after to win games. That is coaching no discipline on this team on or off the court.

Taylor this and Taylor that. Red can't win with Taylor starting etc... IT WAS RED'S CHOICE TO BRING HIM BACK !!! So Taylor starting is Red's fault he shouldn't even be on the team.

 

[sufandu]

Dumb to have only two concrete voting options when things are so much more nuanced. I hope people don't actually fall completely into either camp. If they do, I question whether they actually watch basketball or understand it.

 

[Fat tire 13]

Definitely more than one thing. Willing to give Red a full offseason and next year to sort it out. After all, players change every year.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

the coach put this team together

most posters who were following during portal season were begging for a scoring forward and a decent center...and we got mcleod and ...crickets...

so...red doesnt get a pass from me in terms of talent...

it was inexplicable that he chose to ride with this forward corps and this center squadron...the guards are fine, imo.


it is hard to tell just how uncoachable these players truly are...but the combination of this staff and these players seems like the players are uncoachable...which, again, goes back to the coaches...bc they put this roster together...

most every other team seems better coached...this was also true during JBs last years and why i wanted a different coach.

so bc of that...I think it is coaching problem...and a player problem...but the coaches choose the players...so it is ultimately a coaching problem. a serious one that I am not optimistic about

give them a mulligan for this season and see how they do next

if these issue dont get better...it is 100% the coaches

You assume Red could just go out a pick up whatever players he wanted. Hate to break it to you, but recruiting doesn’t work that way.
The promise of man to man and fast break offense wasn’t enough to lure really good portal kids (Westry tbd.)

 

[shu 49]

Won’t vote because there’s a 3rd option, new coach, good talent, team needs to gel. For instance I question Jim’s desire to be a team player. good talent there, coaches are trying to correct, Jim not interested. It’s kind of unfair to try to put it all in buckets. Sure Reds staff needs to get better, but they are short at 5, and maybe Benny adds by subtracting.

I am so confused. why is everyone talking about staff. we really need shooting and a couple bigs.

 

[OrangeAl]

Who woulda thought that Jesse and Joe would be such big losses in our lineup?
And moving Taylor away from the perimeter makes him unable to put up a decent shot?
For as flawed as we are, 15-8 isn't that bad. But when we get exploited we get whipped badly.

 

[Ozone!]

The turn around will take time. HCAA is tasked with turning a large ship around in the choppy ACC waters. Cut him some slack!

 

[SWC75]

It's a false dichotomy. Obviously the results of the season are the product of the players AND the coaches. By the way, we have a 15-8 record against the 4th most difficult schedule in the county, (by opponent winning percentage), so I'm not sure whose 'fault' that is.

Strength of Schedule (SOS) - Men's College Basketball | WarrenNolan.com

2024 Men's College Basketball Strength of Schedule (SOS) Updated in REAL-TIME for Every Team at the Completion of Every Game.

www.warrennolan.com

Imagine if Jesse Edwards hadn't gone for the NIL money, if McLeod and Hima and Westry had been healthy. Would we be searching for whose 'fault' this season is?

 

[Nicknack]

Al the posts I see and there alot of posters jumping on both sides of this. I think its gotta be one or the other

I casted a vote for lack of talent. However, I'd say talent is one, lack of talent at the right positions is a second, new head coach a third. It's frustrating to watch some of our guys have to play out of position, not perform as well as we would like at that position and then get slammed for it. This has been going on for years... roster management has really hurt - this isn't Red's fault though (at least not now).

With all that though, as SWC alluded to above, I think we're doing pretty decent considering everything. While some have claimed that our season is over, not me. Plenty yet to unfold. Plenty of chances still remain for post season.