Red Season 1 Now a Bust

[djcon57]

I think another POV you have to argue is...

Allen Griffin gets a call that there's a talented under the radar guy, JB sees him play once, and he gets a scholie and accepts... and the same time JB is enamored with a player that he sees play ALL THE TIME for...reasons...

JB is gonna be more comfortable moving forward with the player he knows vs the unknown. I think most coaches would. I'm sure that works similarly with Red as head coach, but I don't believe Red (or any major coach) would only see a player play once. JMO.

 

[capeorange]

The same points keep coming up in every discussion about Red, so I'll give the same response. Just because the assistants were doing most of the recruiting work, doesn't mean they had carte blanche to go recruit players that didn't fit into Boeheim's system. So they were looking for tall lanky guards (rules out a lot of PG, which is why we often end up with combo guards running point) and forwards with good wingspan.

If we had a smoother transition, with an announcement maybe a year in advance, then the point that the current crop of recruits were on Red would have a lot more merit.

I see your points and agree for the most part. However I think Red and the assistants were not blind to what was and is going on and all parties deserve responsibility for the current state. Was Red a 'Yes Man's all these years or did he repeatedly point out the obvious? We probably will have a good idea after the season.
I'm rooting for Red and I hope he can fix the program.

 

[djcon57]

There were players that could have helped us that we didn’t bring in that JB said no to. A guard transfer from Auburn who’s name escapes me as one.

Justin Powell.

That was the year we brought in Symir. I don't believe anyone wanted Symir other than JB over the other options we had avail.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Justin Powell.

That was the year we brought in Symir. I don't believe anyone wanted Symir other than JB over the other options we had avail.

Yes, the easy way out. Just like when we took Hima over other options.

 

[pokercuse08]

I see your points and agree for the most part. However I think Red and the assistants were not blind to what was and is going on and all parties deserve responsibility for the current state. Was Red a 'Yes Man's all these years or did he repeatedly point out the obvious? We probably will have a good idea after the season.
I'm rooting for Red and I hope he can fix the program.

What was he supposed to do? Go behind Boeheim's back to try to get him fired? Tell JB to pound sand and freelance as a recruiter? Those are two creative ways to get a pink slip.

I agree we'll have a better idea after the portal, but I think we can already draw some conclusions. Starling and Cuffe are here, they wouldn't have been in JB's system. We're playing man now. Obviously Autry thinks JB was doing some things poorly at the end.

 

[Cusefan0307]

What was he supposed to do? Go behind Boeheim's back to try to get him fired? Tell JB to pound sand and freelance as a recruiter? Those are two creative ways to get a pink slip.

I agree we'll have a better idea after the portal, but I think we can already draw some conclusions. Starling and Cuffe are here, they wouldn't have been in JB's system. We're playing man now. Obviously Autry thinks JB was doing some things poorly at the end.

There were rumblings last year about frustration within the coaching staff.

 

[jr4750]

Didn’t know where else to put this, so wanted to drop it here. Regarding recruiting nowadays. Good to hear some real truth.

 

[orangecuse]

There were players that could have helped us that we didn’t bring in that JB said no to. A guard transfer from Auburn who’s name escapes me as one.

Acknowledge...type A as mentioned.

We also broke up a sweet 16 team that probably could have won 25 games the following year, but JB wanted to add Jimmy to the team.

Yeah. Although, that 25 win tally could just as easy be argued to be a stretch. That S16 season came off another mediocre type 9-7 regular season conference record, a 15-9 regular season and another double digit (11) seed in the Dance.

JJ Starling did not want to come here with JB as the HC. Suddenly JB retires and he’s here. Those are 3 examples off the top of my head.

He's here now.

And a quick google search will find you about 5 articles from Zagoria of Red or GMac showing up to see a player when the other teams HC is there

Yep, a well acknowledged problem of JB's later and resting on his laurels years.

However, all of this, IMO, still doesn't preclude Red or Gerry of any degree of culpability. They still were responsible for bringing the best players to JB from a vast remaining pool that presumably fitted JB's criteria.

 

[pwong]

Yes, the easy way out. Just like when we took Hima over other options.

I would imagine the recruitment for a backup C is much harder than backup guard.

Last offseason, we had a starting C spot open and we had to settle for Naheem (after talking to every portal C under the sun). Now imagine how much harder it was to get a backup C (Mounir). Tons of P5 teams had to settle for backup Cs that prob shouldn’t be HM players.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Taylors confidence is shot. He needs to play games this summer. Forget the gym he needs actual game time in order to get his shot back. He also needs to possibly lay off the upper body strength conditioning as he seems to have bulked up too much and that can most definitely mess with your shot. Kid is a two who at this time can't shoot. In addition, he doesn't seem very quick or athletic and his handle is average at best. Why is this kid starting. I don't see what he brings to the table.

I think honestly he's more of a three. He doesn't have a great handle. He's a guy with a thick torso who sticks his nose in there on defense, and defends bigger guys. He's a forward, not a guard. Dribbling is the essential skill required to be a guard. Taylor doesn't have it.

 

[sdhall01]

I'm going to be lazy and not read 11 pages of madness because my blood pressure cannot take it. I'm sure it says this elsewhere in the thread, but it bears repeating at this point . Red was projected to win like 10 games this season based on the metrics. He accomplished a lot without one of his biggest recruits (Westry) and with the dismissal of a former 5 star player (Benny). The premise of this thread is incorrect.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I would imagine the recruitment for a backup C is much harder than backup guard.

Last offseason, we had a starting C spot open and we had to settle for Naheem (after talking to every portal C under the sun). Now imagine how much harder it was to get a backup C (Mounir). Tons of P5 teams had to settle for backup Cs that prob shouldn’t be HM players.

I don't think we had our act together at this time last year. Boeheim was still the coach, still saying he (not the University) would decide when he retires. Even in May, our NIL was still a work in progress.

Fran and Wildhack have raised the bar enormously on that. Either Red gets going on it, too, or he won't be here long. He has to do a much better job with the roster for next season. We can't afford to have six players not able to play for us again next year if we want to do better than this.

 

[Cuse181]

I don't think we had our act together at this time last year. Boeheim was still the coach, still saying he (not the University) would decide when he retires. Even in May, our NIL was still a work in progress.

Fran and Wildhack have raised the bar enormously on that. Either Red gets going on it, too, or he won't be here long. He has to do a much better job with the roster for next season. We can't afford to have six players not able to play for us again next year if we want to do better than this.

JB was gone and red was announced weeks before the portal opened

 

[Sherman20]

Yet you posted..

FWIW, there’s nothing wrong with my post. Season 1 (making the NCAAT) officially ended tonight. It’s okay to question the future. Red will be here next year. How long should he have to turn the program around? Right now it’s just looking like a continuation of JAB’a last few seasons of mediocrity.

Expect Red to have similar growth from year 1 to year 2 that Coach Legette-Jack has had for the Orange women’s team.

 

[Sherman20]

We are Syracuse the expectations are to be competitive within the conference and make the tournament every year. PERIOD I will not change my expectations for the program ever. If it is a talent problem then FIX it.

Yes the expectations should be high, but in year 1, they have to be reasonable expectations. Red will need to show positive growth the next two seasons. I agree Red won’t get 5 years of poor results to prove himself. But I don’t think he’ll need even 3 years to show that growth. I think we’ll be an NCAA tourney team next season.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I disagree with this take. Our defense is fine despite the recent skid. The offense has been abysmal and the reason we lose games. Man vs Zone debate shouldn’t impact our ability to run sets on offense. We are an above average defense and below average team on offense. We need scorers.

Have you watched this team? Nobody can keep their man in front of them.

 

[Sherman20]

Those are program expectations and I feel your pain, but this team was never any good. Not at the beginning of the year before injuries. Never. Too many holes. Not enough talent. I mean, we can’t shoot. We can’t rebound. Mccloud was a stiff before he ever got here. Did anyone really expect him to become serviceable here? No.

The issue is the players. It’s been that way for several years. We need much better players. It’s that simple. Why would anyone have expectations for a team starting Chris Bell and Taylor at the forwards? Benny Williams? The first time I saw that dude play it was obvious he was a bust. He couldn’t dribble or shoot. Last time I checked, those are the most important things in basketball, especially for a small forward.

I love JB, but he left the program in shambles with a horrible roster. People says we’re going to slip like Indiana and Gtown. I got news for you, we’re already there. SU basketball is totally irrelevant.

The way out of this mess is to get better players and hope Red can coach. It’s very hard to tell with this bunch. I mean, Copeland thinks he’s Oscar Robertson or something for example. No. You’re not that good!!

I agreed with your program expectations but this is a bad team (mediocre) plain and simple. We need electric shock to become relevant again. I hood Freeman can be that jolt.

2002 was an NIT team and in 2003 we won the national title. I’m not saying we’re gonna do that but turnarounds can happen quick in college basketball if the right levers are pulled. We had a grand total of two NBA players on our NCAA title team (granted one was a generational talent). We just need to get the guys coming back like JJ, Q and Maliq to improve and then get a couple of quality players out of the portal and we should be a solid tourney team next season.

 

[pokercuse08]

They still were responsible for bringing the best players to JB from a vast remaining pool that presumably fitted JB's criteria.

Let's talk about a vast remaining pool. I'm going to use the 24/7 rankings because they're easily accessible. There are 19 4-star PG in their rankings. 16 of them are 6'3 or shorter. There are 15 4-star or higher combo guards, six of those are 6'3 or shorter. There are 15 4-star centers. Six are 6'9 or under. 26 small forwards, 15 are 6'6 or shorter.

So the vast remaining pool of point guards is 3 of the original 19 if we're trying to get a JB style PG. 9 of the original 15 combo guards and 9 of the 15 centers are big enough for the zone.11 of the original 26 small forwards.

We're not a selector school that can just take our pick each year, we have to go recruit, so we're reducing our overall pool at those four positions overall by about 60%. I wouldn't call the remaining pool of 4+ stars "vast." So now we're trying to find the right 3-stars, and no matter how you slice it, there's a luck factor in recruiting - some guys just don't pan out. The more you're gambling on developmental kids the more risk you're taking.

 

[ar inj]

Let's talk about a vast remaining pool. I'm going to use the 24/7 rankings because they're easily accessible. There are 19 4-star PG in their rankings. 16 of them are 6'3 or shorter. There are 15 4-star or higher combo guards, six of those are 6'3 or shorter. There are 15 4-star centers. Six are 6'9 or under. 26 small forwards, 15 are 6'6 or shorter.

So the vast remaining pool of point guards is 3 of the original 19 if we're trying to get a JB style PG. 9 of the original 15 combo guards and 9 of the 15 centers are big enough for the zone.11 of the original 26 small forwards.

We're not a selector school that can just take our pick each year, we have to go recruit, so we're reducing our overall pool at those four positions overall by about 60%. I wouldn't call the remaining pool of 4+ stars "vast." So now we're trying to find the right 3-stars, and no matter how you slice it, there's a luck factor in recruiting - some guys just don't pan out. The more you're gambling on developmental kids the more risk you're taking.

And on top of all that, how many of those that fit the "all zone requirements" wanted to play 100% zone?

 

[two3zone]

Wasn’t Taylor a JB recruit? I think JB pitched Taylor heavily on becoming Buddy 2.0

And Gmac right?

 

[Cusefan0307]

I would imagine the recruitment for a backup C is much harder than backup guard.

Last offseason, we had a starting C spot open and we had to settle for Naheem (after talking to every portal C under the sun). Now imagine how much harder it was to get a backup C (Mounir). Tons of P5 teams had to settle for backup Cs that prob shouldn’t be HM players.

That’s fair, but I don’t think we tried hard exactly. JB saw a guy who could be a rim protector in his zone and that was good enough.

 

[SoBristol]

Have you watched this team? Nobody can keep their man in front of them.

True - but the biggest issue is we lack inside defense and rebounding. We have Brown … and very little else. GaTech killed this team on the boards, getting multiple second chances, and we got maybe 2 or 3.
We also lack inside scoring except when a play is made for Brown, or when our guards take it to the hoop. A team can’t win unless it can defend and score inside — except on the night it shoots unusually well.
In short, our forwards other than Brown can’t do what you need your inside players to do.
Red has recruited a top forward and will find another from the portal. Because the lack of inside play is glaring.

 

[Red2003]

Let's talk about a vast remaining pool. I'm going to use the 24/7 rankings because they're easily accessible. There are 19 4-star PG in their rankings. 16 of them are 6'3 or shorter. There are 15 4-star or higher combo guards, six of those are 6'3 or shorter. There are 15 4-star centers. Six are 6'9 or under. 26 small forwards, 15 are 6'6 or shorter.

So the vast remaining pool of point guards is 3 of the original 19 if we're trying to get a JB style PG. 9 of the original 15 combo guards and 9 of the 15 centers are big enough for the zone.11 of the original 26 small forwards.

We're not a selector school that can just take our pick each year, we have to go recruit, so we're reducing our overall pool at those four positions overall by about 60%. I wouldn't call the remaining pool of 4+ stars "vast." So now we're trying to find the right 3-stars, and no matter how you slice it, there's a luck factor in recruiting - some guys just don't pan out. The more you're gambling on developmental kids the more risk you're taking.

This is the best post I’ve read in awhile. Actual facts. People think coaches are at the grocery store grabbing portal talent or high school recruits like it’s a box of cereal. Getting every guy takes time and effort and money and some luck.

Autry has been the man in charge for one portal year and one high school cycle. I count 2 five star guys coming to CNY in the last 12 months that weren’t coming before Autry took over. As long as the talent pipeline is flowing Autry will be fine. He had some blunders this year for sure, no one is denying that, but the talent is coming.

Also I will say this again and again this is not a regular offseason. There are 2 years of talent leaving programs with the Covid year. The ACC has acquired and absurd amount of super Covid Sr and regular senior talent, the opposite of Cuse. If you look at the leading scorers and rebounders in the ACC, basically our 2 biggest issues, the talent leaving this March is insane. Some teams ie Clemson have 25 years of college hoops experience walking out the door. The # of starting guards and bigs finally out the door is unreal. It’s likely JJ is the best Guard left in the ACC next year and Brown the best defender in the ACC then we see what Freeman can do.

 

[pokercuse08]

And on top of all that, how many of those that fit the "all zone requirements" wanted to play 100% zone?

I'll put it this way. If any surefire NBA prospect asked me if they should go play 100% zone defense for a coach who barely coached/practiced offense, my honest opinion would be that it's probably a mistake. Offense and man-to-man are important at the next level, not zone.

I guess for some of the guys who would specifically benefit from iso ball, it makes sense.

Also I will say this again and again this is not a regular offseason. There are 2 years of talent leaving programs with the Covid year. The ACC has acquired and absurd amount of super Covid Sr and regular senior talent, the opposite of Cuse. If you look at the leading scorers and rebounders in the ACC, basically our 2 biggest issues, the talent leaving this March is insane. Some teams ie Clemson have 25 years of college hoops experience walking out the door. The # of starting guards and bigs finally out the door is unreal. It’s likely JJ is the best Guard left in the ACC next year and Brown the best defender in the ACC then we see what Freeman can do.

This is a great point I haven't thought about enough! Although I think we'll see a lot of regular senior talent keep flowing into the powerhouses, regardless, losing the super COVID senior guys finally does help.

 

[pwong]

That’s fair, but I don’t think we tried hard exactly. JB saw a guy who could be a rim protector in his zone and that was good enough.

I agree. My assumption is that JB didn't work hard enough to fill a tough spot (backup C) and I would also assume the St Benedict coaches reached out to the staff about Mounir.

Side note: Funny coincidence, my sister's roommate had some sort of relation to his adopted family. I remember her asking me if I knew of a Mounir Roriston because her roommate told her that he commited on a zoom call on their way back from their Cuse visit. I didn't bother to ask her about any more details, mostly because I didn't really think he would move the needle.