Stewart-Ward video

[CuseCPT]

You do understand how those types of cars work on dirt right? He wasn't gunning the engine to hit him but rather to try and miss him.

If he was gunning it to avoid him none of what I said applies and nowhere did I imply he was TRYING to hit him. I think Cuseregular narrowed it down pretty well, it was either 1) to avoid him or 2) to intimidate him.

E:If it was the latter he should spend some time in jail.

 

[Guinness]

If he was gunning it to avoid him none of what I said applies and nowhere did I imply he was TRYING to hit him. I think Cuseregular narrowed it down pretty well, it was either 1) to avoid him or 2) to intimidate him.

E:If it was the latter he should spend some time in jail.

For me unless it can be proved he intentionally hit him I don't think there should be any jail time. Could Tony have avoided him? Only Tony knows that. What we do know however is that if Ward stays in his car that none of this happens. Hard to put someone in jail because someone else broker the rules.

 

[SWC75]

I think the fact that we can see Ward in a shot taken from across the race track suggests that visibility was not the problem. The fact that the first guy goes down to avoid Ward and Stewart seems to go toward Ward still seems significant to me but I admit I'm not a race driver or an aficionado of dirt track racing which seems to be a bit different than other forms of auto racing. Stewart's reputation feeds into people's perception of this but that's not legal evidence of a crime.

 

[CuseCPT]

For me unless it can be proved he intentionally hit him I don't think there should be any jail time. Could Tony have avoided him? Only Tony knows that. What we do know however is that if Ward stays in his car that none of this happens. Hard to put someone in jail because someone else broker the rules.

Intent isn't the full story when someone ends up dead.

The actions of Ward will be very critical in the inevitable civil trial, but in any hypothetical criminal proceedings they would matter much less.

 

[cuseincincy]

The video above is the best and clearest I have see. So many people are misinterpreting the video because they do not know how cars react on the dirt track. On dirt when cars go around the corners they essentially fishtail causing the rear tires to slide a little right. The video shows me that
1 - Ward clearly at the last moment moves toward Stewart's car.
2 - Stewart must have seen him because at the last moment he turns a little right in order to get his rear wheels NOT to slide as far right as they normally would. This looked like and evasive action to me.
3- The motor clearly was revved, AFTER Stewart's car hit Ward because he had been unable to avoid him with his rear wheels.

Unable to determine if Stewart knew he was going to cause the wreck initially because they were both sliding through the turn. Stewart is going to need some good attorneys with some good experienced dirt track drivers as expert witnesses because the fans and others can easily misinterpret what happened. I feel for the Ward family as ultimately it was his own mistake that caused his death.

 

[310Pigpen]

He gunned the engine and turned right so the rear end would slide away from Ward but he was too close to the rear tire and it didn't do any good. It's also hard to see out of the right of the car because of the panel that hangs off the roof.

 

[PoppyHart]

Short of a confession, there is absolutely no chance that a prosecutor could overcome the reasonable doubt standard. We shouldn't be wasting our time with criminal discussions.

 

[SWC75]

The video above is the best and clearest I have see. So many people are misinterpreting the video because they do not know how cars react on the dirt track. On dirt when cars go around the corners they essentially fishtail causing the rear tires to slide a little right. The video shows me that
1 - Ward clearly at the last moment moves toward Stewart's car.
2 - Stewart must have seen him because at the last moment he turns a little right in order to get his rear wheels NOT to slide as far right as they normally would. This looked like and evasive action to me.
3- The motor clearly was revved, AFTER Stewart's car hit Ward because he had been unable to avoid him with his rear wheels.

Unable to determine if Stewart knew he was going to cause the wreck initially because they were both sliding through the turn. Stewart is going to need some good attorneys with some good experienced dirt track drivers as expert witnesses because the fans and others can easily misinterpret what happened. I feel for the Ward family as ultimately it was his own mistake that caused his death.

Interesting. So Stewart steering toward Ward is not an attempt to hit Ward, scare him or dirty him up. It's an attempt to prevent Ward from being hit by the rear wheels, which normally slide toward the outside of the track in a turn. But the first driver seems to avoid Ward by turning away from him. of course Ward wasn't moving toward the first driver, as we was toward Stewart. I think Ward's own culpability for the situation will be what shields Stewart from any legal action.

 

[SWC75]

Short of a confession, there is absolutely no chance that a prosecutor could overcome the reasonable doubt standard. We shouldn't be wasting our time with criminal discussions.

The issue is unresolvable but unavoidable.

 

[cuseincincy]

Interesting. So Stewart steering toward Ward is not an attempt to hit Ward, scare him or dirty him up. It's an attempt to prevent Ward from being hit by the rear wheels, which normally slide toward the outside of the track in a turn. But the first driver seems to avoid Ward by turning away from him. of course Ward wasn't moving toward the first driver, as we was toward Stewart. I think Ward's own culpability for the situation will be what shields Stewart from any legal action.

I am not a driver (drove go carts 40+ years ago but that is entirely different and was not on dirt). Been to many races as spectator and know some drivers. I think its kind of like when you start to fishtail on snow/ice you turn into the turn to straighten the car out which brings the rear tires back away from the turn. As far as the first driver missing Ward I do not think he had a car in front of him so may have been able to see him more clearly. Stewart likely had little time after the first car passed Ward to see him and certainly would not have expected him to be there. Also, as someone else pointed out Stewart would not necessarily been down on the infield side of the track as that is where the emergency vehicles were. Whatever Stewart did was a reaction.

 

[Cuseregular]

The video above is the best and clearest I have see. So many people are misinterpreting the video because they do not know how cars react on the dirt track. On dirt when cars go around the corners they essentially fishtail causing the rear tires to slide a little right. The video shows me that
1 - Ward clearly at the last moment moves toward Stewart's car.
2 - Stewart must have seen him because at the last moment he turns a little right in order to get his rear wheels NOT to slide as far right as they normally would. This looked like and evasive action to me.
3- The motor clearly was revved, AFTER Stewart's car hit Ward because he had been unable to avoid him with his rear wheels.

Unable to determine if Stewart knew he was going to cause the wreck initially because they were both sliding through the turn. Stewart is going to need some good attorneys with some good experienced dirt track drivers as expert witnesses because the fans and others can easily misinterpret what happened. I feel for the Ward family as ultimately it was his own mistake that caused his death.

wrong on most points. Clearly the engine was reved prior to the death hit. Also the DIRT driver I treat tells me and the videos of any dirt racing clearly indicate you turn the wheel to the right after entry into a corner to get the cars rear to slide outside toward the periphery of the track in the attempt to pick up or maintain speed, or in this case toward Ward.

Certainly not saying he meant to hit him, but the actions he took resulted in the opposite. And a young man is dead. As I said given his history I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...warts-history-rage-charges-not-ruled-out.html

 

[ImperialOrange]

I think the fact that we can see Ward in a shot taken from across the race track suggests that visibility was not the problem. The fact that the first guy goes down to avoid Ward and Stewart seems to go toward Ward still seems significant to me but I admit I'm not a race driver or an aficionado of dirt track racing which seems to be a bit different than other forms of auto racing. Stewart's reputation feeds into people's perception of this but that's not legal evidence of a crime.

Not really a great indicator. Cameras don't blink or squint, most folks in the stands have to due to dust and all drivers have peel offs on their visor because the build up is so thick. Most folks in the stands wear glasses as result. Watch any race and you'll see a dust vortex of sorts build over the track. When the cars slow down and the upward and outward air flow slows all of that crud comes falling back down from the atmosphere.

 

[Guinness]

wrong on most points. Clearly the engine was reved prior to the death hit. Also the DIRT driver I treat tells me and the videos of any dirt racing clearly indicate you turn the wheel to the right after entry into a corner to get the cars rear to slide outside toward the periphery of the track in the attempt to pick up or maintain speed, or in this case toward Ward.

Certainly not saying he meant to hit him, but the actions he took resulted in the opposite. And a young man is dead. As I said given his history I'm not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...warts-history-rage-charges-not-ruled-out.html

'Stewart may have hit the gas, but you steer sprint cars with the throttle more than with the steering wheel. The idea that he accelerated trying to hit Ward is beyond the pale.

I have driven winged sprint cars, and as you can imagine, visibility to the side is horrible. Ward was wearing a mostly black fire suit and a black helmet. The idea that any driver would purposely hit another over what was a comparatively minor, that’s-racing incident is hard to swallow. That Tony Stewart would do it on purpose? That is unthinkable."

link

I would add that link to the daily mail is a joke. It's calling pit road accidents where cars are pitting in very tight quarters rage incidents. You want to say he throws his helmet, threatens other drivers and gets into pushing matches? OK but then again so do most of the other drivers. To call pit road accidents anything other than that is an absolute joke and tells me the writer of that article doesn't have a clue about auto racing.

If Tony Stewart has a rage issue so does 99% of the drivers on the circuit because they all do it. Hell even Danica has thrown her helmet and pushed another driver.

 

[ImperialOrange]

http://www.chucko.com/racing/the-cars.html

Here's a bit of info on 410 sprints for those interested that are unfamiliar.

With a power-to-weight ratio comparable to a Formula 1 racer's, and a short, tippy frame, a sprint car spends most of its time scrabbling for traction, broadsliding around the corners, wheelstanding on the straights, and throwing clay into the stands, while the driver wrestles frantically with the steering wheel.

 

[Cuseregular]

'Stewart may have hit the gas, but you steer sprint cars with the throttle more than with the steering wheel. The idea that he accelerated trying to hit Ward is beyond the pale.

I have driven winged sprint cars, and as you can imagine, visibility to the side is horrible. Ward was wearing a mostly black fire suit and a black helmet. The idea that any driver would purposely hit another over what was a comparatively minor, that’s-racing incident is hard to swallow. That Tony Stewart would do it on purpose? That is unthinkable."

link

still you have to steer, obviously, don't think anyone rationale is saying he intentionally hit him but that worst case scenario is he may have tried to scare him and it went bad fast. Best case is he didn't see him and unlike the guy right in fron of him missed him completely.

Then we have to explain the rev of the engine. Can't imagine a guy with his experience would think a rev of the engine and not a turn of the wheel would be best case to swerve to avoid something (or someone) in close quarters.

 

[ImperialOrange]

You want to say he throws his helmet, threatens other drivers and gets into pushing matches? OK but then again so do most of the other drivers. To call pit road accidents anything other than that is an absolute joke and tells me the writer of that article doesn't have a clue about auto racing.

This stuff generally happens in the pits out of view at dirt track races. Usually ends up with the driver and crew of the car that gets wrecked walking over to the offending crews pits. Usually a bit of cursing, yelling and potentially shoving but usually gets seperated by track officials before it gets too out of hand. Guys like to spout off but if they get too out of control tracks will kick them out for the night, possibly the rest of the season, and very rarely life time bans. Difference with nascar, F1, indy, etc is that there are cameras everywhere but most race drivers have that same mentality regardless of the level.

 

[Guinness]

still you have to steer, obviously, don't think anyone rationale is saying he intentionally hit him but that worst case scenario is he may have tried to scare him and it went bad fast. Best case is he didn't see him and unlike the guy right in fron of him missed him completely. Then we have to explain the rev of the engine.

Lets say you are right. That he did not try to hit him but rather tried to scare him or splash him with mud. Does that make him any more culpable then the kid who broke the rules and got of his car and walked into the line of moving cars? What about the kid's anger issues?

I know the kid died and it is very sad but the bottom line is he stays in that car and he lives.

 

[Guinness]

This stuff generally happens in the pits out of view at dirt track races. Usually ends up with the driver and crew of the car that gets wrecked walking over to the offending crews pits. Usually a bit of cursing, yelling and potentially shoving but usually gets seperated by track officials before it gets too out of hand. Guys like to spout off but if they get too out of control tracks will kick them out for the night, possibly the rest of the season, and very rarely life time bans. Difference with nascar, F1, indy, etc is that there are cameras everywhere but most race drivers have that same mentality regardless of the level.

You are 100% correct. Most of the time in NASCAR today it is all a show. They know that there will be crew guys and officials holding everyone back so they all act like tough guys. They puff out their chests and threaten to kick ass or wreck someone on the track. In today's NASCAR it real fights rarely happen because of the monies involved. Guys simply are not going to risk millions of dollars so they put on the tough guy show like they are junior high.

 

[Cuseregular]

Lets say you are right. That he did not try to hit him but rather tried to scare him or splash him with mud. Does that make him any more culpable then the kid who broke the rules and got of his car and walked into the line of moving cars? What about the kid's anger issues?

I know the kid died and it is very sad but the bottom line is he stays in that car and he lives.

yep if you read my OP I said the kid was stupid.

 

[Guinness]

yep if you read my OP I said the kid was stupid.

Sorry. Just kind of ranting in general. Some of the media coverage and responses by non race fans across the web has me a bit worked up today. Apologies.

 

[ImperialOrange]

You are 100% correct. Most of the time in NASCAR today it is all a show. They know that there will be crew guys and officials holding everyone back so they all act like tough guys. They puff out their chests and threaten to kick ass or wreck someone on the track. In today's NASCAR it real fights rarely happen because of the monies involved. Guys simply are not going to risk millions of dollars so they put on the tough guy show like they are junior high.

Nascar fights are funny to me when theyre between big name drivers. Tehy're millionaires who aren't footing the bill for their wrecked cars. How mad can they be?

I get the anger at dirt tracks though. Fair amount of them aren't rich and struggle to afford to race every weekend. One bad wreck that trashes the car and you can't afford to race until next year.

 

[Cuseregular]

here guys check this out. Slo mo vid with sound clearly shows he turned the wheel right AND gunned it right BEFORE hitting him. This vid end up in the court case no doubt.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C698ejUwG_M

Again I have no doubt he didn't want to hit him, but he probably wanted to scare him thinking there's no way the guy will allow himself to be that close to be hit, while Wards thinking theres no way he'll gun it and turn the car into him or more accurately anywhere near him. If Stewart just stays the course steering wise, doesn't give it the gas he blows right by him.

 

[ImperialOrange]

here guys check this out. Slo mo vid with sound clearly shows he turned the wheel right AND gunned it right BEFORE hitting him.

Correct which is what you would do to try and kick the back end left thus avoiding Ward if possible. I was afraid to watch the video at first for fear that I'd see something intentional but didnt look like the case. If you have a rear wheel drive vehicle and drive in the snow or rain, turn right and punch the throttle the back end will step out to the left. If he turned the wheels left then, to me, it would look intentional like he tried to spray the guy and it went terribly wrong.

 

[SWC75]

here guys check this out. Slo mo vid with sound clearly shows he turned the wheel right AND gunned it right BEFORE hitting him. This vid end up in the court case no doubt.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C698ejUwG_M

Again I have no doubt he didn't want to hit him, but he probably wanted to scare him thinking there's no way the guy will allow himself to be that close to be hit, while Wards thinking theres no way he'll gun it and turn the car into him. If Stewart just stays the course he blows right by him.

I don't think there's any question Stewart steered to the right, (by whatever method he was using to control the car). Cuseincincy suggested that the purpose of this was not to hit the guy with the front of the car but to get the back of the car behind Stewart rather than out to the side as it would normally be when making a turn in a sprint car race, so that the back of the car wouldn't hit Ward. But the was too close to Ward, especially as Ward continued to advance toward him. In other words, to the novice, it looks as if Stewart was turnign his car toward Ward but he may actually have been trying to evade him.

A tutorial on sprint cars:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayhtGHDqNY8

 

[CuseCPT]

Lets say you are right. That he did not try to hit him but rather tried to scare him or splash him with mud. Does that make him any more culpable then the kid who broke the rules and got of his car and walked into the line of moving cars? What about the kid's anger issues?

I know the kid died and it is very sad but the bottom line is he stays in that car and he lives.

In civil law it matters, in criminal law it doesn't.