Syracuse's B.J. Johnson injures ankle in USA East Coast's loss to Estonia (PS: Waters)

[Trueblue25]

Jb messed up by not opening the bench last season. The lack of depth and vulnerability to injuries/fatigue was on him and its kind of silly to pretend otherwise. Hes not perfect, he lives and learns too. We had no work horses like triche last year, none. Cooney was exhausted trying to get open in tylers slower offense. Cj was clearly worn down trying to put the team on his back and tyler ennis showed fatigue at times too. Then again its part of college basketball. On to 2014.

 

[RF2044]

Jb messed up by not opening the bench last season. The lack of depth and vulnerability to injuries/fatigue was on him and its kind of silly to pretend otherwise. Hes not perfect, he lives and learns too. We had no work horses like triche last year, none. Cooney was exhausted trying to get open in tylers slower offense. Cj was clearly worn down trying to put the team on his back and tyler ennis showed fatigue at times too. Then again its part of college basketball. On to 2014.

You know what else is silly? Pretending that just running players out there whether they are ready to contribute or not is going to result in positive outcomes. There's no doubt in my mind that the three frosh from last year are all capable of being contributors during their careers here. Last year? I don't happen to think that any of the three were ready for prime time last year. So if they'd played, who knows what we would have gotten? Maybe, as you suggest, it would have helped the team's depth / offensive woes. Or maybe they wouldn't have. There's no way of knowing, and to claim that it absolutely would have helped is an unsubstantiated truism based on the notion that simply playing 8-10 players = good.

 

[CusefanATL]

You know what else is silly? Pretending that just running players out there whether they are ready to contribute or not is going to result in positive outcomes. There's no doubt in my mind that the three frosh from last year are all capable of being contributors during their careers here. Last year? I don't happen to think that any of the three were ready for prime time last year. So if they'd played, who knows what we would have gotten? Maybe, as you suggest, it would have helped the team's depth / offensive woes. Or maybe they wouldn't have. There's no way of knowing, and to claim that it absolutely would have helped is an unsubstantiated truism based on the notion that simply playing 8-10 players = good.

The reason people complain about what Boeheim does isnt because they think player a or player b will be ready in November like Melo was.

They want the player to be ready in March. Boeheim plays every game in November like its the 2nd round of the tournament. So for the most part - the greener players dont get PT in meaningful situations.

Whereas Izzo and Cal (by default) and others play everyone they think will be quality from the beginning. They take lumps as they go but have seen better success in the tournament.

Some players wont work out, others will... but we had an offensive problem last year from day 1 (and I was constantly talking about it) and we did nothing to try to fix that issue because we kept winning at the beginning. We could have at least tried different scenarios while the players had time to grow.

Maybe you can read it this time.

 

[CusefanATL]

Historically, JB only plays 7. With the exception of last year, he's expanded that rotation in recent years.

10-11: Scoop, Triche, Dion, KJ, CJ, Rick, Fab, Southerland, BMK -- 9 players
11-12: Scoop, Triche, Dion, KJ, CJ, Southerland, Fab, Rak, BMK [MCW only played token minutes, so I won't include him in the final tally] -- 9 players
12-13: Triche, MCW, Cooney, CJ, Southerland, Rak, BMK, Grant -- 8 players

The fact--or perhaps the inconvenient truth--is that when he's had players that can contribute, he's expanded the rotation to 8-9 players. I'm not saying that the last 4-5 years invalidates the accurate complaint that he's traditionally been a 7 player rotation coach, but to say that he doesn't or hasn't played more guys recently is inaccurate.

11-12 was the only year we truly went deep.

7.5 to 8 is normal.

 

[RF2044]

The reason people complain about what Boeheim does isnt because they think player a or player b will be ready in November like Melo was.

They want the player to be ready in March. Boeheim plays every game in November like its the 2nd round of the tournament. So for the most part - the greener players dont get PT in meaningful situations.

Whereas Izzo and Cal (by default) and others play everyone they think will be quality from the beginning. They take lumps as they go but have seen better success in the tournament.

Some players wont work out, others will... but we had an offensive problem last year from day 1 (and I was constantly talking about it) and we did nothing to try to fix that issue because we kept winning at the beginning. We could have at least tried different scenarios while the players had time to grow.

Maybe you can read it this time.

If JB had played BJ, Roberson, and Patterson, maybe that would have fixed the offensive problem.

And if the queen had balls, she'd be the king.

They.
Weren't.
Ready.

It sucks that last year's team had a lot of the pieces in place to be good, but was missing a few critical elements and so lacking in experience. But the reality is that the offensive problem was a continuation of the preceding season, where we were also anemic offensively--and then lost three of our four top scorers--all of whom were three point threats. But throwing shi- against the wall to see what sticks doesn't change the fact that BJ Johnson, at 170 pounds last year, probably wasn't physically equipped to paly major minutes, that last year's frosh were all one year away, that Cooney was so inconsistent, that Patterson wasn't a backup point guard, etc.

That your preference would have been for JB to give those players run to see if they could rectify the offensive problems doesn't mean that last year's frosh, at that point on their respective developmental curves, were equipped to do so.

 

[RF2044]

11-12 was the only year we truly went deep.

7.5 to 8 is normal.

I personally view it as progress that the goal posts are shifting on the "JB only plays 7" argument.

 

[AZOrange]

Like I said, the truth is inconvenient for those clinging to the notion that he only plays 7. And I love how now the goal posts have moved.

I love this type of thread. Quick how about a man vs zone thread?!? A we should press thread?!? A we need to feed the post thread?!? A lets lose a few early so we can get a 9 seed thread? A Cooney stinks thread?!? I mean so many options.

But come on Ryan everyone knows that of we played our freshman more we would have had more losses but we would have been better for it!!

 

[jordoo]

I am a huge proponent of playing more guys if you have guys that are helping you win. Part of playing for JB as a younger player is taking advantage of the early opportunities you are given. You cannot go out there make 2 defensive mistakes in a row followed by a quick shot and expect him to keep you in there over a Junior or Senior since JB is much more sure of what he gets from them as they have shown it over time. I think we've seen it with plenty of guys over the years. You hear they have been practicing well, they get there chance and are all discombobulated on both ends. They sit back down quickly, are talked to and get another chance later that game or next if the same thing happens they get the chance less and less. You can make mistakes but you cannot be costing us points/possessions on one end without counteracting that on the other. If the young player is a scorer who is putting the ball in the basket he will get more leeway.

MCW was a special case as a freshman. He was behind a 5 year starting PG who had an excellent season, a 3rd year starting 2G who was very steady and always played good defense and combo guard who went in the lottery that year. MCW showed flashes and played some good ball in stints although he also made plenty of mistakes. Still most seasons he would have played more minutes that particular one we had three very good experienced guards in front of him.

 

[CusefanATL]

That your preference would have been for JB to give those players run to see if they could rectify the offensive problems doesn't mean that last year's frosh, at that point on their respective developmental curves, were equipped to do so.

My opinion is that Roberson was a better option day 1 than playing 7.

If you disagree, fine.

 

[jordoo]

My opinion is that Roberson was a better option day 1 than playing 7.

If you disagree, fine.

Roberson reminded me a little bit of what KrisJo was like as a freshman. You could see right away that he had some skills and would be a good player, in fact I expected with both guys they would play some good ball before their freshman seasons ended but neither really did.

 

[orangefan13]

JB is going to play more guys if it makes us better. Different guys bring different things against different lineups and opponents.

Imagine having...
sophmore dion, with senior rautins at sg with mcw and billy edelin at point and jr. gmac as a swing guard. And senior Demetirus Nichols, wes johnson, senior cj fair and jr hakim warrick as forwards, and soph fab melo, senior Rick Jackson and senior AO at center.

They all would play, all of them.

 

[Mano22]

I think you guys are not pricing in the value added in case of an injury. I understand (and agree) that JB clearly understands who is ready to contribute right now. MUCH better than anyone on this board does. But when we lose a player, we would certainly be better off if the guy behind him had a little more game experience. So I guess it comes down to what are your goals? It feels like JB's are basically title or bust. Sure our best team gets marginally better by playing all of our game ready guys as much as possible, but our post-injury team gets a LOT worse. If your goal is to simply win titles, and you don't think you can do it if a starter gets injured (barring getting super lucky etc), then JB's position makes perfect sense. But if you wanna sacrifice, say 0.5% of our title chances to give us a 6% better chance to make the elite 8 if a key goes down (numbers completely made up obv), you should be getting the Tyler Robersons of the world some more minutes.

If we were a tier 2 programs, it might make sense to play more guys. But we are an elite program, and I kind of agree with his title or bust philosophy.

And before anyone points out this or that anecdotal fact (my #1 pet peeve on this board and in life) clearly there exceptions to everything. Sometimes we have more game ready guys. Some starters are more important than others etc. But this seems to be JB's general philosophy.

 

[Garbs]

If JB had played BJ, Roberson, and Patterson, maybe that would have fixed the offensive problem.

And if the queen had balls, she'd be the king.

They.
Weren't.
Ready.

It sucks that last year's team had a lot of the pieces in place to be good, but was missing a few critical elements and so lacking in experience. But the reality is that the offensive problem was a continuation of the preceding season, where we were also anemic offensively--and then lost three of our four top scorers--all of whom were three point threats. But throwing shi- against the wall to see what sticks doesn't change the fact that BJ Johnson, at 170 pounds last year, probably wasn't physically equipped to paly major minutes, that last year's frosh were all one year away, that Cooney was so inconsistent, that Patterson wasn't a backup point guard, etc.

That your preference would have been for JB to give those players run to see if they could rectify the offensive problems doesn't mean that last year's frosh, at that point on their respective developmental curves, were equipped to do so.

I don't think anyone is saying they were ready, they are saying the only way for guys to get better is to get minutes, and through more minutes throughout the season maybe one or more are ready to contribute in the tournament. If not you can shorten up the bench.

 

[Waltdods]

My opinion is that Roberson was a better option day 1 than playing 7.

If you disagree, fine.

Roberson seems like a weird subject for this (perennial) fight. I thought it was pretty clear Boeheim was giving him an opportunity last year. There's definitely a quick hook for freshman, but it looked to me like Boeheim was envisioning Roberson having a role roughly akin to what Grant had the year before but Roberson just didn't produce. This is admittedly cherry-picking a statistic, but he shot 33% on the year. Grant shot 46% the year before. I imagine it has been a long time since SU had a frontcourt rotation player with that low a shooting percentage. I expect Roberson to be a very valuable player in his career but I am really not sure what people were seeing last year.

Additionally, I'm not even sure the hindsight bias is terribly helpful here. Grant and Fair were never really the problems on last year's team - both did their things and the one obvious weakness they had - perimeter shooting - was not going to be addressed by Tyler Roberson.

 

[CusefanATL]

Roberson seems like a weird subject for this (perennial) fight. I thought it was pretty clear Boeheim was giving him an opportunity last year. There's definitely a quick hook for freshman, but it looked to me like Boeheim was envisioning Roberson having a role roughly akin to what Grant had the year before but Roberson just didn't produce. This is admittedly cherry-picking a statistic, but he shot 33% on the year. Grant shot 46% the year before. I imagine it has been a long time since SU had a frontcourt rotation player with that low a shooting percentage. I expect Roberson to be a very valuable player in his career but I am really not sure what people were seeing last year.

Additionally, I'm not even sure the hindsight bias is terribly helpful here. Grant and Fair were never really the problems on last year's team - both did their things and the one obvious weakness they had - perimeter shooting - was not going to be addressed by Tyler Roberson.

he didnt play at all in the beginning. He only played in 8 of 13 preseason games. indiana for 1 min and nova for 4 mins.

 

[Garbs]

he didnt play at all in the beginning. He only played in 8 of 13 preseason games. indiana for 1 min and nova for 4 mins.

yea it wasn't until we lost Coleman and then Keita and Grant that he got an "opportunity" aka too late

 

[Waltdods]

yea it wasn't until we lost Coleman and then Keita and Grant that he got an "opportunity" aka too late

He played more than at least 10 minutes in six games before the New Year. That's really not that different than the opportunities Grant had as a freshman - Grant had 8 games over 10 minutes in November and December. And the reason for the difference is probably mostly that the '12-13 team had a much easier time with some early season games than last year's team did. Roberson did rebound well, but he shot poorly (including a 1-8 against Colgate) and was visibly confused on defense. Grant, too, ultimately got his biggest chunk of minutes due to injury. The difference is that even after Southerland came back, Grant kept getting minutes (albeit not a lot) because he had shown he could help. Roberson never really did that. If he had, I think he would have played more. Obviously, there is no way to prove this. But Boeheim did keep putting him in to games; the other non-Ennis freshmen, for example, never got that.

 

[TheCusian]

My opinion is that Roberson was a better option day 1 than playing 7. If you disagree, fine.

It's not that we disagree - it's that your opinion is smacked down by a hall of fame coach with 900+ wins. If JB says he's not ready, he's not ready. Produce in practice, and you'll see the floor in games.

 

[TheCusian]

yea it wasn't until we lost Coleman and then Keita and Grant that he got an "opportunity" aka too late

It's not too late - minutes in games before you're ready is too early. If JB had his druthers, he wouldn't have played until he showed in practice.

 

[Antiprodigy]

Kids are not going to get better by playing 2-3 minutes per half, poor defense, out of position, fumbling around, having a short leash, getting a quick yank. These do nothing to make them ready, or build their confidence. They get far more time and instruction during practice. If they aren't slowly piecing it together over time during practice, and improving, how is the playing time going to make the difference? Based upon what we see JB do, his answer is, NOTHING.

JB is like every other human, he is not perfect. But in this, in most cases, he is right.

It's simple. Show me something in practice. Get better. Start being where you are supposed to be, on offense & defense, then we will talk.

I am a big fan of Roberson, but he was completely lost on defense, and we all know that unless you are a rare offensive talent, or he has no other option, JB will not play you if you don't know where you are supposed to be on defense.

 

[RF2044]

I don't think anyone is saying they were ready, they are saying the only way for guys to get better is to get minutes, and through more minutes throughout the season maybe one or more are ready to contribute in the tournament. If not you can shorten up the bench.

I don't agree that getting minutes is the ONLY way for guys to get better. It's the only way for them to gain game experience, but its not the only way for them to get better.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't agree that getting minutes is the ONLY way for guys to get better. It's the only way for them to gain game experience, but its not the only way for them to get better.

I think it's the best way to get better, once you've proven yourself ready in practice. In video game parlance, you need to master level 1 before you can move onto level 2. Skipping straight to level 2 just means you get your arse kicked.

 

[tee1222]

Slightly off topic for this thread
BJ was selected all tournament team. Stats from their last scrimmage after the tourney.
"Tyler Roberson - 12pts, 5reb, 1stl, 18:30min"

 

[tee1222]

 

[cuseincincy]

I stopped reading just because neither side will ever change the others mind, and that's OK. Personally I would like to see more "player development" during early season games. My frustration with those that say "he's not ready" etc. is that we frequently are facing players that quite simply are not as talented or as good as the SU players sitting on the bench who are deemed "not ready". Last season in particular SU was in dire need of someone else that could shoot. As has been proven against us many many times, if you can shoot, you can shoot and being "ready" has little to do with the ability to shoot. I respect JB as much as anyone else does but he's not perfect and he would be the first to admit that. He would also tell you that he could care less what anyone else's opinion is. I understand how he coaches and how he believes in only playing the best players. If he could, he'd only play his best 5 every game all game. He can't obviously do that but he will always try to play them together as much as possible. The interesting anomaly is his recent penchant for the token starter. That doesn't seem to synch with his best players philosophy.