The Last Dance

[OrangeDW]

A gold Magic Johnson.

Around the same time, I also got a white Mark Price jersey - the early 90s Cavs ones, not the toothpaste tube looking ones they got in the mid 90s.

And also a Moten senior year white jersey - first year of the new uni’s after changing from the cursive ones.

Those were my main 3 hoops jerseys.

 

[MikeSU02]

Hornets and Magic gear definitely dominated for a few years.

Teal was like the de facto National New Hotness color in the early 90s. It was everywhere.

 

[Eric15]

I love Steph Curry, maybe more than anyone, but I'm not sure I will be able to get him into the top 10 of all time. He's going to need to probably play at his established level for a few more years. He has 5 or 6 years as an elite player; at that level he was awesome, but to be top ten or whatever, you probably need closer to 10 years at that level I would think?

I think that Durant coming to the Warriors hurts Curry's legacy historically. It's almost like it altered the narrative from him being the alpha on a team that was one Lebron block away from back-to-back titles to a guy that was the sidekick to Durant. I do think that when he retires, (assuming a natural regression and not some sudden career ending injury) a reasonable argument could be made for putting Curry ahead of Kobe all-time.

 

[Knicks411]

I think that Durant coming to the Warriors hurts Curry's legacy historically. It's almost like it altered the narrative from him being the alpha on a team that was one Lebron block away from back-to-back titles to a guy that was the sidekick to Durant. I do think that when he retires, (assuming a natural regression and not some sudden career ending injury) a reasonable argument could be made for putting Curry ahead of Kobe all-time.

I mostly agree, but it's funny, cause I don't think Kevin Durant would agree with that!

I think Kobe's best argument is his longevity. He was really good for a really long time (probably close to 15 years as a top level player?)

 

[MikeSU02]

I think that Durant coming to the Warriors hurts Curry's legacy historically. It's almost like it altered the narrative from him being the alpha on a team that was one Lebron block away from back-to-back titles to a guy that was the sidekick to Durant. I do think that when he retires, (assuming a natural regression and not some sudden career ending injury) a reasonable argument could be made for putting Curry ahead of Kobe all-time.

I've said this before, but I think KD is one of the best pure basketball talents ever. But in terms of value, I think Curry is one of the top players ever. His advanced metrics for his teams when he is on the court are off the charts. He fundamentally changed the geometry of the floor and how teams had to play defense.

 

[Eric15]

I mostly agree, but it's funny, cause I don't think Kevin Durant would agree with that!

I think Kobe's best argument is his longevity. He was really good for a really long time (probably close to 15 years as a top level player?)

I feel like Curry has done everything he needs to do from a team accomplishment standpoint for legacy purposes, now it's just adding things like All-NBA appearances, All-Star appearances, scoring titles, etc.

The average season for Golden State going forward (just my guess) is going to be like 53 wins and West semis as opposed to overwhelming title favorites.

 

[Eric15]

I've said this before, but I think KD is one of the best pure basketball talents ever. But in terms of value, I think Curry is one of the top players ever. His advanced metrics for his teams when he is on the court are off the charts. He fundamentally changed the geometry of the floor and how teams had to play defense.

Not to change the subject, and I know PER isn't the end all/be all, but I just can't get my head around how Bill Russell can be considered the 4th best player of all-time with a PER of 117.

I know he won five MVPs, but I just feel like he gets a little bit of "Derek Jeter" treatment in that his individual talent is exaggerated based on being the likable face of a dynasty.

 

[Alsacs]

Kobe’s biggest problem was he played too long after his prime.

Him coming into the league at 18 and all those long playoff runs killed his legs.

Jordan came into the league at 21 with 3 years in college AND retired for 1.5 years at 33. Which allowed him to recharge his batteries physically.

Kobe is the second greatest SG IMO.
Bottom of the top 10 alltime IMO.

 

[Newhouser]

I think something that hurts Kobe is he started early and played for a while, so his per minute stats will look worse. Especially in comparison to Duncan, who played 4 years in college and was an elite player from day 1.



That period was so bad overall. The lockout season, no one could score.
In the game 4 of the 98 finals, the Jazz scored 54 points. In the whole game!!! (and they were the top offense in the league that season)

Kobe is also hurt by the end of his career where he further morphed into a ball hog point counter.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I feel like Curry has done everything he needs to do from a team accomplishment standpoint for legacy purposes, now it's just adding things like All-NBA appearances, All-Star appearances, scoring titles, etc.

The average season for Golden State going forward (just my guess) is going to be like 53 wins and West semis as opposed to overwhelming title favorites.

You're "assuming" Bob Myers doesn't make a move at forward which I think is highly likely.

 

[Knicks411]

I've said this before, but I think KD is one of the best pure basketball talents ever. But in terms of value, I think Curry is one of the top players ever. His advanced metrics for his teams when he is on the court are off the charts. He fundamentally changed the geometry of the floor and how teams had to play defense.

It would've been really interesting to see how the undermanned Warriors would've done with Steph this year. His on/off numbers are awesome, like you said. I basically 100% buy them, just curious to see what happens with a lot less talent around him.

Not to change the subject, and I know PER isn't the end all/be all, but I just can't get my head around how Bill Russell can be considered the 4th best player of all-time with a PER of 117.

I know he won five MVPs, but I just feel like he gets a little bit of "Derek Jeter" treatment in that his individual talent is exaggerated based on being the likable face of a dynasty.

I don't think I think (follow that?) is the 4th best player ever, but PER really values volume shooting, and well, that wasn't his game. He was ahead of his time athletically, compared to most of his competition (basically everyone except Wilt?). But I mean, maybe the best defensive big man ever, a great passer for a guy his size, and basically all the positive intangibles you could want?

 

[Eric15]

I don't think I think (follow that?) is the 4th best player ever, but PER really values volume shooting, and well, that wasn't his game. He was ahead of his time athletically, compared to most of his competition (basically everyone except Wilt?). But I mean, maybe the best defensive big man ever, a great passer for a guy his size, and basically all the positive intangibles you could want?

Like for example, even adjusting for their respective eras, I don't see a rational argument for Russell over Olajuwon.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think PER has turned into the batting average of advanced statistics. It overvalues players like Russell Westbrook/Harden/CP3 and undervalues guys like Kawhi/Curry and virtually every big man. I think there's other data out there that's better at showing just how much impact a player has when they are on the court.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Like for example, even adjusting for their respective eras, I don't see a rational argument for Russell over Olajuwon.

Russell is 27th all time in win shares per minute. Olajuwon is 46th. The other thing we don't know with Russell is exactly how impactful he was defensively as the NBA didn't track steals or blocked shots until 1973.

 

[kirbivore]

Have to laugh at Nick Anderson saying Jordan didn't look like the same player in the 95 Magic/Bulls series. Jordan went for 31/6/4/2/2 on 48% shooting. The bigger issue seemed to be defense/rebounding with no Rodman yet.

During this doc series you hear multiple mentions of how tired MJ was during both 3 peat seasons (93, 98). This is the biggest reason I refuse to go along with the take that the Bulls win 8 straight if he doesn't play baseball.

 

[NineOneSeven]

What were the expansion teams again?

I think I'm over-stating how good I think the early 00s were - I think they stunk, just to be clear.

My earlier point was that I think expansion and the dilution of the league was the biggest knock against MJ.

This same knock sticks with that three-peat Laker team. That was really funky because of when illegal D was changed and hand checking, since they weren't changed at the same time.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I feel like Curry has done everything he needs to do from a team accomplishment standpoint for legacy purposes, now it's just adding things like All-NBA appearances, All-Star appearances, scoring titles, etc.

The average season for Golden State going forward (just my guess) is going to be like 53 wins and West semis as opposed to overwhelming title favorites.

He'd have 4 rings if Green wasn't a moron and got himself suspended game 5, and if Kerr didn't lose his mind playing Festus Ezeli in game 7 for far too many minutes.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I think that Durant coming to the Warriors hurts Curry's legacy historically. It's almost like it altered the narrative from him being the alpha on a team that was one Lebron block away from back-to-back titles to a guy that was the sidekick to Durant. I do think that when he retires, (assuming a natural regression and not some sudden career ending injury) a reasonable argument could be made for putting Curry ahead of Kobe all-time.

I think so too, but mostly people who don't really understand his true impact think that. It's been shared before but the W/L when Curry plays vs sits compared to the other Warrior players even with Durant were incredible.

 

[Alsacs]

During this doc series you hear multiple mentions of how tired MJ was during both 3 peat seasons (93, 98). This is the biggest reason I refuse to go along with the take that the Bulls win 8 straight if he doesn't play baseball.

I wonder if maybe the Bulls get to the Finals in 1994 since they took the Knicks to 7 without MJ.
Not sure they beat the Rockets but in 1995 they lost Horace Grant.
That team doesn’t repeat as Orlando beat them.

Bulls got lucky San Antonio wanted to get rid of Rodman badly because of the distraction he was and they just gave him away for Will Perdue.
Rodman filled the Grant spot perfectly.

 

[Alsacs]

ESPN top 10 all-time players.
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Shaq

 

[MikeSU02]

What were the expansion teams again?

1988: Hornets, Heat
1989: Magic, T-Wolves
1995: Raps, Grizz (Canadian expansion)

Final expansion to get us where we are now is the Charlotte Bobcats in 2004.

 

[Eric15]

This is the biggest reason I refuse to go along with the take that the Bulls win 8 straight if he doesn't play baseball.

I personally consider MJ a Top 3 athlete in American history along with Babe and Ali. That being said, there are times when I feel like talking to an older millennial male (i.e. my generation) about MJ is similar to talking to a Baby Boomer about Trump. Any criticism whatsoever creates this visceral/emotional response.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Like for example, even adjusting for their respective eras, I don't see a rational argument for Russell over Olajuwon.

Russell has more rings than fingers.

 

[OrangeDW]

During this doc series you hear multiple mentions of how tired MJ was during both 3 peat seasons (93, 98). This is the biggest reason I refuse to go along with the take that the Bulls win 8 straight if he doesn't play baseball.

That and the 94-95 Bulls - after they lost Grant, but before they got Rodman - probably weren’t going to win it, even with a peak Jordan. We’re talking the 3rd best player for both of their 3 peats(Grant/Rodman).

 

[NineOneSeven]

ESPN top 10 all-time players.
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Shaq

That's a fair list. I have Russell lower and Hakeem over Shaq or Kobe.