The Riddle in the Middle......

[newmexicuse]

Team keeps getting hammered inside.

DC2 takes up space, but lacks athleticism.

Lydon simply gets bullied inside.

Contracting the Zone would leave us susceptible to the trey on the wings.

Chino won't get into the rotation.

So, given all of the above, why don't we try Roberson at the 5, at least when Lydon is in the game for DC2.

Yes, he is undersized for the middle, but at least he is strong and athletic, and it would leave Lydon to play on the wing - his more natural position. Seems an upperclassman should be able to adjust better than a frosh to an unnatural position.

 

[longislandcuse]

I don't know why we can't play Chino and his 5 fouls. At least make teams earn it from the stripe instead of praying DC and Lydon don't get in foul trouble making them even more timid. It's not like Chino could be any worse with the ball in his hands than DC is right now...

 

[pfister1]

Don't you guys think that JB and staff have tried these options enough in practice to know that they aren't better than the imperfect solution we are seeing?

I assume you don't put Roberson in the middle because he doesn't add enough to make up for what you give up by moving him from the four. I also assume JB would rather have Lydon and Coleman in foul trouble as a result of their attempts to deal with quicker and/or stronger guys in the paint then have Roberson in foul trouble because he is playing out of position tying to play defense.

 

[Brooky03]

I also assume JB would rather have Lydon and Coleman in foul trouble as a result of their attempts to deal with quicker and/or stronger guys in the paint then have Roberson in foul trouble because he is playing out of position tying to play defense.

This is my assumption also.

I think the solution is to play the passing lanes ultra-aggressively down low. Either steal the pass or give them an uncontested dunk. It can't be worse than what we're doing now.

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

Don't you guys think that JB and staff have tried these options enough in practice to know that they aren't better than the imperfect solution we are seeing?

I assume you don't put Roberson in the middle because he doesn't add enough to make up for what you give up by moving him from the four. I also assume JB would rather have Lydon and Coleman in foul trouble as a result of their attempts to deal with quicker and/or stronger guys in the paint then have Roberson in foul trouble because he is playing out of position tying to play defense.

Either Lydon is scared to death of contact, or he has been coached to avoid it. He moves his feet to stay between the defender and basket, but I have yet to see him give a hard foul. It's a free pass to opposing bigs, an invite to steamroll straight to the rim. Giving them a few hard fouls may be the only way to slow them.

 

[pfister1]

Either Lydon is scared to death of contact, or he has been coached to avoid it. He moves his feet to stay between the defender and basket, but I have yet to see him give a hard foul. It's a free pass to opposing bigs, an invite to steamroll straight to the rim. Giving them a few hard fouls may be the only way to slow them.

I would assume because he is our only serviceable backup at both the 4 and the 5 positions that he is told to play position defense and try to be frugal in giving out the fouls.

I think the only guy we would tell to give hard fouls with abandon might be Obokoh.

 

[OttoMets]

I don't know why we can't play Chino and his 5 fouls. At least make teams earn it from the stripe instead of praying DC and Lydon don't get in foul trouble making them even more timid. It's not like Chino could be any worse with the ball in his hands than DC is right now...

This came up when Obokoh got extended run a couple games ago during a blow-out. Nobody on here could articulate why he can't give us better minutes for a spurt than Lydon or Coleman.

I could better appreciate this limited and hard-working team if we weren't wasting Lydon's freshman year playing a position that he'll never even be serviceable at. They're stunting his development with this center nonsense, and it's not even helping the team this year.

As for Coleman, I feel bad for him. He works as hard as anyone, but he's just not very skilled. So many questions here. What were they teaching him at Jamesville-DeWitt? What'd the McDonald's people see in him? What'd SU's talent evaluators see? Why didn't they get another big in here when it became apparent that Coleman wasn't very good? Why didn't they sense some urgency when he started to have knee problems?

Virginia's a crappy matchup for us, so there's no sense in getting down on the team after yesterday. But it's odd that SU's coaches are getting a pass for putting together this weird bunch of personnel.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

As for Coleman, I feel bad for him. He works as hard as anyone, but he's just not very skilled. So many questions here. What were they teaching him at Jamesville-DeWitt? What'd the McDonald's people see in him? What'd SU's talent evaluators see? Why didn't they get another big in here when it became apparent that Coleman wasn't very good? Why didn't they sense some urgency when he started to have knee problems?

I'm sure neither the McD's people nor JB and Hop saw major knee issues in DC's future while he was still in HS.

Why didn't we get another big? You mean like Diagne?

 

[tbonezone]

chino ain't gonna get better riding the pine .there's no reason he couldn't give us 5 minutes a game. couldn't be that much worse than what we're seeing.

 

[OttoMets]

I'm sure neither the McD's people nor JB and Hop saw major knee issues in DC's future while he was still in HS.

He's the same player he was before he was injured. The only difference is that he used to be a fat kid who was a below-the-rim player with shaky fundamentals. Since coming to SU, thanks to his work ethic and in spite of his injuries, he's now very fit; still fundamentally unsound, though.

 

[OttoMets]

like Bryant?

The kid who adamantly didn't want to come to Syracuse? Typically we recruit a Plan B in these situations. Unusual to whiff on two center recruits (one in the Class of 2012 and one in the Class of 2013, the latter a serious project) and not recruit another one in 2014, putting all the eggs into the basket of some kid in the Class of 2015 coming in and producing as a freshman.

There's so much apologism for the coaching staff here, it's bizarre. They mishandled their personnel. These things happen.

 

[newmexicuse]

Don't you guys think that JB and staff have tried these options enough in practice to know that they aren't better than the imperfect solution we are seeing?

I assume you don't put Roberson in the middle because he doesn't add enough to make up for what you give up by moving him from the four. I also assume JB would rather have Lydon and Coleman in foul trouble as a result of their attempts to deal with quicker and/or stronger guys in the paint then have Roberson in foul trouble because he is playing out of position tying to play defense.

I would not assume that JB has or has not tried anything in practice unless an insider would indicate otherwise.

One thing we all know about JB is that for all of his good points he is excessively stubborn.

It is pretty apparent that the decisions were made early on that Lydon would be the backup 5 & that Chino would gather splinters.

Just because something isn't working that is no reason to try something else.....

 

[HoustonCuse]

I'm sure neither the McD's people nor JB and Hop saw major knee issues in DC's future while he was still in HS.

Why didn't we get another big? You mean like Diagne?

I agree on Diagne - they did try.

The question about Coleman's skills is a valid one though. He must have been a beast at the HS level to get McDAA status, but he appears to lack skills in most areas. How could this happen? I don't see it as related to knee. I consider it a success if he draws iron on a layup attempt. I cannot fathom that Obokoh has less offensive skills. And even if he did, it is the difference of something being worth 1 cent or 2 cents. The 2 cent item may be double the value of the 1 cent item, but neither has value in grand scheme of things so you don't really lose anything by going with the half-as-good option.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Team keeps getting hammered inside.

DC2 takes up space, but lacks athleticism.

Lydon simply gets bullied inside.

Contracting the Zone would leave us susceptible to the trey on the wings.

Chino won't get into the rotation.

So, given all of the above, why don't we try Roberson at the 5, at least when Lydon is in the game for DC2.

Yes, he is undersized for the middle, but at least he is strong and athletic, and it would leave Lydon to play on the wing - his more natural position. Seems an upperclassman should be able to adjust better than a frosh to an unnatural position.

Maybe Roberson was worse than DC or Lydon in the middle at practice, so they scrapped that entirely.

 

[OttoMets]

I'm sure neither the McD's people nor JB and Hop saw major knee issues in DC's future while he was still in HS.

Why didn't we get another big? You mean like Diagne?

Looks like you beat me with the edit.

Again, they didn't know that Diagne had transcript problems? (Hint: these aren't state secrets. Every coach on the recruiting trail who does any due diligence -- or even socializes with his colleagues -- gets a good idea of a recruit's academic background and his chances with the clearinghouse.)

Come on, they dropped the ball here. It's OK to admit that.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Looks like you beat me with the edit.

Again, they didn't know that Diagne had transcript problems? (Hint: these aren't state secrets. Every coach on the recruiting trail who does any due diligence -- or even socializes with his colleagues -- gets a good idea of a recruit's academic background and his chances with the clearinghouse.)

Come on, they dropped the ball here. It's OK to admit that.

Does the NCAA publish guidelines which specify which foreign courses they'll accept and which ones they'll reject?

 

[OttoMets]

Does the NCAA publish guidelines which specify which foreign courses they'll accept and which ones they'll reject?

Ah, you know the answer to that. I'm not claiming the process doesn't appear arbitrary, but the coaches knew that Diagne was no sure thing. They gambled and lost.

 

[Dave85]

Don't you guys think that JB and staff have tried these options enough in practice to know that they aren't better than the imperfect solution we are seeing?

I assume you don't put Roberson in the middle because he doesn't add enough to make up for what you give up by moving him from the four. I also assume JB would rather have Lydon and Coleman in foul trouble as a result of their attempts to deal with quicker and/or stronger guys in the paint then have Roberson in foul trouble because he is playing out of position tying to play defense.

Exactly my thinking.

 

[CusefanATL]

All I know is that in the 2 or 3 Indiana games I've seen, Thomas Bryant would have been amazing in the zone. The dudes motor doesnt stop.

 

[pfister1]

Looks like you beat me with the edit.

Again, they didn't know that Diagne had transcript problems? (Hint: these aren't state secrets. Every coach on the recruiting trail who does any due diligence -- or even socializes with his colleagues -- gets a good idea of a recruit's academic background and his chances with the clearinghouse.)

Come on, they dropped the ball here. It's OK to admit that.

It's also ok to accept that you can't always plan for every contingency and blame doesn't always have to be assigned in a "someone has to be blamed for this" kind of mentality. Remember there were a ton of moving parts here.

1. The number of available scholarships has been rising and falling due to sanctions, departures, grandfathering of sanctions, uncertainty surrounding interpretation of grandfathering of sanctions and reinstatement of scholarships/reduction of sanctions.
2. Bryant was a real possibility, did it become obvious he wasn't coming here in time to go in a different direction (meaning there was someone available and worth burning a scholarship on who we were involved with? With the reduced scholarships we can't afford another body on scholarship for a four year tryout...and that is a change in circumstance resulting from the sanctions. Pre-sanctions we could afford to burn a scholarship or two on a guy to see if they developed.)
3. Diagne was expected here, it seems up until the late Spring....could we even have gone in a different direction once the staff got a whiff that we might be in trouble on the Diagne front given #1...and also see #2 re: availability of alternatives, only this was later in the recruiting cycle?
4. How limited were we by the fact that we had already given a scholarship to Moyer and had one reserved for Battle?
5. Staff did go out and pick up Chuckwu. Taking on a transfer is an unusual move for JB. Taking on a center transfer (guy who usually has a greater developmental risk/curve is an ever rarer occurrence here....have we taken any before? Leron Ellis comes to mind, but I'm not remembering anyone else.)
6. When did it become obvious that Coleman was going to be severely limited as a result of his knee injuries? I don't believe the first injury told us that, I think it was only after he required the micro fracture procedure that this became clearer.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Ah, you know the answer to that. I'm not claiming the process doesn't appear arbitrary, but the coaches knew that Diagne was no sure thing. They gambled and lost.

Yet Diagne had offers from Kansas, Cincinnati, West Virginia, and Villanova. Do Self, Huggins, and Wright seem like the gambling type to you?

 

[pearl31]

apparently Calipari and the other coaches of the big-time schools that were after DC must've been completely clueless/inept as well!

 

[OttoMets]

Yet Diagne had offers from Kansas, Cincinnati, West Virginia, and Villanova. Do Self, Huggins, and Wright seem like the gambling type to you?

Argumentative today, eh? There's no harm in offering someone who might contribute, obviously. Maybe he sneaks in. Maybe this pays off when Diagne is starting for West Virginia in 2018.

 

[OttoMets]

It's also ok to accept that you can't always plan for every contingency and blame doesn't always have to be assigned in a "someone has to be blamed for this" kind of mentality. Remember there were a ton of moving parts here.

1. The number of available scholarships has been rising and falling due to sanctions, departures, grandfathering of sanctions, uncertainty surrounding interpretation of grandfathering of sanctions and reinstatement of scholarships/reduction of sanctions.
2. Bryant was a real possibility, did it become obvious he wasn't coming here in time to go in a different direction (meaning there was someone available and worth burning a scholarship on who we were involved with? With the reduced scholarships we can't afford another body on scholarship for a four year tryout...and that is a change in circumstance resulting from the sanctions. Pre-sanctions we could afford to burn a scholarship or two on a guy to see if they developed.)
3. Diagne was expected here, it seems up until the late Spring...could we even have gone in a different direction once the staff got a whiff that we might be in trouble on the Diagne front given #1...and also see #2 re: availability of alternatives, only this was later in the recruiting cycle?
4. How limited were we by the fact that we had already given a scholarship to Moyer and had one reserved for Battle?
5. Staff did go out and pick up Chuckwu. Taking on a transfer is an unusual move for JB. Taking on a center transfer (guy who usually has a greater developmental risk/curve is an ever rarer occurrence here...have we taken any before? Leron Ellis comes to mind, but I'm not remembering anyone else.)
6. When did it become obvious that Coleman was going to be severely limited as a result of his knee injuries? I don't believe the first injury told us that, I think it was only after he required the micro fracture procedure that this became clearer.

Good points. Easy to second-guess, of course. With sanctions on the horizon, it's clear we didn't want to clog up a third scholarship with a center in the Class of 2014. No wiggle room to burn scholarships, as you noted. In 2015, things were tighter (though there were rumblings that Bryant and Diagne were both long-shots pretty early in the cycle). And there's no doubt that Boeheim would rather hold out hope for a guy like Battle rather than push for a middle-of-the-road center prospect as an insurance policy.

Agree with the observation on the Providence transfer - that says a lot.

Don't believe Coleman is too limited by his injuries. Obviously he was limited last season, in that he didn't play at all. And his future is probably limited; I'd hate to think of him running and jumping on hardwood in ten years. But everything's worked out almost perfectly for him in terms of post-op health. He's just too far behind in terms of skills to be a consistent contributor.

 

[AZOrange]

Yet Diagne had offers from Kansas, Cincinnati, West Virginia, and Villanova. Do Self, Huggins, and Wright seem like the gambling type to you?

Yes. Yes they do.