"The Zone" is why we are in this mess...

[saltine44]

It was a good 20 year run, but things change. That's the way it is.

It was a good run but the kids be playing it a little different these days . . .

 

[OrangeDW]

It was a good run but the kids be playing it a little different these days . . .

Is it wrong that I was hoping the kid with the ball would rifle it off one of their heads?

 

[two3zone]

Is it wrong that I was hoping the kid with the ball would rifle it off one of their heads?

I can get a little intense sometimes when playing sports, now that I'm older I don't play as many which is probably a good thing but if somebody was doing that in front of me I'd tag them in the mouth to make sure they never did that again to anybody else.

 

[Cowtown]

The 2-3 has been around for a long time, but it was always thought of as a second D to have, to change the pace, protect players in foul trouble, or for small teams to play against taller lineups. You didn't need to practice against it much because most teams weren't any good at it. Then came SU. But good zone D requires belief and commitment, hustle and hard work. And it takes basketball IQ. Players must know where they're going based on what the offense does, and they have to respond quickly. If not, they're just chasing the ball and no one can outrun a pass. I've only seen the SC and Wisconsin games, and we're standing and watching, then chasing the ball. There's no belief, commitment or hustle on that end of the floor.

The first guy I saw who was good at beating SU's 2-3 was Jim Calhoun. He did it by getting the ball into the short corner a lot, which opened up a lot of options for the offense. Since his time, many other coaches have learned from that. I think we should be able to move to M@M more readily if for no other reason than to get guys out of the stand-and-watch mode (see above). But that's just me.

JB's commitment to zone D came, I believe, as a result of having to play against teams full of A & A+ athletes with a lineup that had a few B & B+ athletes in it. For a long time ago he realized he could not draw in the Mickey D all-star track teams that other powers were getting, and he had to find a way to compete. The time when we were able to be competitive by it may have passed, but it just may be that we need players who are willing to buy in and play better within the existing system. For JAB is not likely to have an epiphany at this stage.

 

[Jack Hall]

The 2-3 has been around for a long time, but it was always thought of as a second D to have, to change the pace, protect players in foul trouble, or for small teams to play against taller lineups. You didn't need to practice against it much because most teams weren't any good at it. Then came SU. But good zone D requires belief and commitment, hustle and hard work. And it takes basketball IQ. Players must know where they're going based on what the offense does, and they have to respond quickly. If not, they're just chasing the ball and no one can outrun a pass. I've only seen the SC and Wisconsin games, and we're standing and watching, then chasing the ball. There's no belief, commitment or hustle on that end of the floor.

The first guy I saw who was good at beating SU's 2-3 was Jim Calhoun. He did it by getting the ball into the short corner a lot, which opened up a lot of options for the offense. Since his time, many other coaches have learned from that. I think we should be able to move to M@M more readily if for no other reason than to get guys put of the stand-and-watch mode (see above). But that's just me.

JB's commitment to zone D came, I believe, as a result of having to play against teams full of A & A+ athletes with a lineup that had a few B & B+ athletes in it. For a long time ago he realized he could not draw in the Mickey D all-star track teams that other powers were getting, and he had to find a way to compete. The time when we were able to be competitive by it may have passed, but it just may be that we need players who are willing to buy in and play better within the existing system. For JAB is not likely to have an epiphany at this stage.

Its funny everyones perceptions. My own little perception was that JB started using zone because he liked a real short bench and he could go zone and give his guys a brief blow. But then i saw that JB has a brilliant bball mind (at least defensively) and theres things he could actually acheive with the zone that other m2m teams could not acheive. I am no expert but i only recall two zone defenses (not counting the other "junk" defenses like box and one, etc) that remotely impressed me, and both clearly were not stagnant zones but match up zones. The first was Tom Chaneys from Temple back in the 80s. JB was developing his at same time as i vaguely recall and that eventually JBs passed Chaneys match up zone by and JBs zone is the best zone ive ever watched. When played properly have loved his zone over the years. Whether it should be played exclusively is an entirely diff matter...

 

[Cowtown]

Its funny everyones perceptions. My own little perception was that JB started using zone because he liked a real short bench and he could go zone and give his guys a brief blow. But then i saw that JB has a brilliant bball mind (at least defensively) and theres things he could actually acheive with the zone that other m2m teams could not acheive. I am no expert but i only recall two zone defenses (not counting the other "junk" defenses like box and one, etc) that remotely impressed me, and both clearly were not stagnant zones but match up zones. The first was Tom Chaneys from Temple back in the 80s. JB was developing his at same time as i vaguely recall and that eventually JBs passed Chaneys match up zone by and JBs zone is the best zone ive ever watched. When played properly have loved his zone over the years. Whether it should be played exclusively is an entirely diff matter...

I believe it's John Chaney from Temple, Although you may be referring to Rollie Massimino's "match-up zone" that he ran when he beat Georgetown in 1985? Perhaps not, I don't recall seeing a lot of Chaney's games. And either way, I quite agree that it was easier to create turnovers with various traps, and sand-bagging on skip passes.

 

[two3zone]

Its funny everyones perceptions. My own little perception was that JB started using zone because he liked a real short bench and he could go zone and give his guys a brief blow. But then i saw that JB has a brilliant bball mind (at least defensively) and theres things he could actually acheive with the zone that other m2m teams could not acheive. I am no expert but i only recall two zone defenses (not counting the other "junk" defenses like box and one, etc) that remotely impressed me, and both clearly were not stagnant zones but match up zones. The first was Tom Chaneys from Temple back in the 80s. JB was developing his at same time as i vaguely recall and that eventually JBs passed Chaneys match up zone by and JBs zone is the best zone ive ever watched. When played properly have loved his zone over the years. Whether it should be played exclusively is an entirely diff matter...

Best two zones I've ever seen was ours and the old UNLV squads. They had a little different kind of movement in the amoeba version at UNLV but very very very similar otherwise.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I think he is the whole problem. he big-boyed the staff and showed up at the last possible minute, because i'm sure shooting jumpers with his dad was better than ya know, maybe playing with his actual future teammates. worse yet is that JB has completely given him the keys with zero accountability. frank howard gets rode over the rails for every turnover, yet white plays . . . . defense, is a chucker, and commits bad turnovers and plays 30+ minutes. what kind of message does that send? any minute that white plays the rest of this season is boeheim being stupid for some reason that i can not explain. the kid hasn't won anywhere.

You said it better than I could. White scores points but gives up more than he scores. He's so bad on defense it sickening.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

That's over dramatic bull.

We lost three 3 point threats. We went after white because we needed some 3pt shooting. He's averaging 15ppg and is shooting a higher percentage from 3 than the guys last year.

And the coaches don't take a player based upon a players camp. You don't think they watched him play? They didn't get rick rolled.

Bees, the kid is a liability. He is so bad on defense and doesn't even seem like he gives a . He could be shooting 100% and he'd still be a liability because the kids he defends end up scoring more than he does.

 

[rrlbees]

Bees, the kid is a liability. He is so bad on defense and doesn't even seem like he gives a . . . . . He could be shooting 100% and he'd still be a liability because the kids he defends end up scoring more than he does.

We didn't recruit him for his defense, we recruited him for his 3 pt shooting. And I don't see him not trying.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

We didn't recruit him for his defense, we recruited him for his 3 pt shooting. And I don't see him not trying.

What frustrates me to no end is seeing White continuously get a pass from JB over errors that consistently got players benched and reamed out in the past. White is not that good to be getting the star treatment.

 

[two3zone]

What frustrates me to no end is seeing White continuously get a pass from JB over errors that consistently got players benched and reamed out in the past. White is not that good to be getting the star treatment.

We have one other guy to play the three and that's Battle who really doesn't do much more than White and isn't nearly the shooter of White, so what is JB to do?

Even if you say Battle is better, then Battle is at the three and now you have Gillon and Howard up front which seems to me to be far worse than if White is on the floor.

It's a lose lose situation and our best option is with White on the floor playing the 3. That's one thing I think we've learned in this short season and probably shouldn't even be a debate at this point.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Forget White getting the star treatment. What about Lydon? At least White has been a consistent offensive threat. Lydon shouldn't be playing 40 minute a game either.

 

[pfister1]

Forget White getting the star treatment. What about Lydon? At least White has been a consistent offensive threat. Lydon shouldn't be playing 40 minute a game either.

C'mon now you know better than that. Someone has to play 38 minutes per game in JB's system.

 

[Jack Hall]

I believe it's John Chaney from Temple, Although you may be referring to Rollie Massimino's "match-up zone" that he ran when he beat Georgetown in 1985? Perhaps not, I don't recall seeing a lot of Chaney's games. And either way, I quite agree that it was easier to create turnovers with various traps, and sand-bagging on skip passes.

Best two zones I've ever seen was ours and the old UNLV squads. They had a little different kind of movement in the amoeba version at UNLV but very very very similar otherwise.

Its so funny, i distinctly remember watching both these games when i was young but have no recollection now that they played zone. I guess maybe i remember that Villanova played some zone in that epoch win. Did they play it exclusively? Just too friggin long ago for me!! I also remember that altho the Providence win didnt do much for me, one of my top 5 happiest moments as an SU fan was the unc elite 8 win in 87...

 

[Cuse'91]

We were ALL wrong about AW3. He is NOT a 2, he is NOT a 3. The kid is essentially a stretch 4 in terms of skill set; so basically our two "best" players play the same position. JB let him play guard, now small forward, he let him try to developed his guard driving skills ala Malachi but AW3 just doesn't have it. The kid came here to audition for the NBA as a shooting guard, problem is he is a undersized power forward spot shooter...