This is a great finals...

[RF2044]

My feeling on the non-call on the Manu drive is that no way in the world were the refs going to call a foul at that time in the game and let Manu win a championship at the line. The last time I can remember that happening is in the 1989 NCAA finals when Michigan beat Seton Hall. The refs would not have left the building alive if they made the call. Not saying it's right, just saying that call being made at that time in the game would have been a rare occurrence.

Look, I think at the end of the day everyone wants the refs to let the players decide the outcomes of games. But there is a difference between not calling minor stuff that has no bearing on the outcome of a play [i.e., touch fouls that occur a half-second after a shooter releases the ball, a little extra contact in the post that has no bearing on which team gets a rebound, etc.], and contact that greatly influences the outcome of a play.

If Ginoboli had driven in and tossed up an off-target wild shot hoping to draw a call, I would have no problem with the refs not making a call. The problem is, he never got that opportunity because he got fouled by multiple players, the primary offender being Ray Allen.

As for whether he traveled first, I'd really need to see the play again. I turned off the coverage and was pretty disgusted after the game.

 

[NineOneSeven]

You know what I love? People who count their chickens.

I hope the Spurs kill them in game 7.

You know what I love? Eating chicken. Can't say I do much counting, but I do my fair share of bird eating.

For the record- I would love the Spurs to win this thing. Love what their franchise stands for and another ring for Duncan cements him in the top 5 greatest PLAYERs ever. That being said, the chances of the Spurs killing them in game seven, especially after the devastating loss last night, are slim to none.

The coward stepped up last night and did what champions do.

 

[Knicks411]

I think the title of the thread says it all.

I'd have to look at the Manu play again. He was clearly fouled, the only question is whether or not he traveled first.

Pop definitely had some interesting sub patterns, an d not calling the TO when Manu was driving. (But I guess the devils advocate to that is that Manu got fouled on the play). But man, what a game. Don't r egret staying up at all. Miami is the favorite for Game 7, but the Spurs have a very legitimate chance of winning. Hope Thursday isd 90% as good as last night.

 

[MCC]

The Spurs missed not one but TWO free throws down the stretch--the one by Leonard, and one by Ginoboli. I agree--make one of those and the game is over in regulation.

None of which alters the fact that there was a bad non-call at the end of overtime that impacted the outcome of the game. Those two things are mutually exclusive.

RF, I'm only posting this because I know you'll take it the right way: mutually exclusive isn't the right term here. The two events you refer to did both occur - thus they can't in fact be mutually exclusive. I think you mean the missed FTs and bad non-call are independent events (hence the thrust is that the missed FT's didn't cause the bad non-call, and there's no reason to associate the two as other posters seem to be doing).

That said, your logic is otherwise spot on and I concur with your assessment of what was a compelling Game 6.

 

[moqui]

didn't see this thread in real time last night, but it is hilarious to read through this morning:

Page one of this thread: "Lebron and Wade are just hurling themselves into the lane, looking for fouls to bail them out - it's a travesty and demeans the game of basketball!"

Pages 3 through 6: "Manu picked up his dribble and hurled himself into a wall of three defenders - it's a travesty that he didn't get the call, and it demeans the game of basketball!"

for the anti-LBJ club, whatever weapon is handy I suppose.

but, to RF on his original post: fully agree. love this series; it has been everything I hoped for.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

didn't see this thread in real time last night, but it is hilarious to read through this morning:

Page one of this thread: "Lebron and Wade are just hurling themselves into the lane, looking for fouls to bail them out - it's a travesty and demeans the game of basketball!"

Pages 3 through 6: "Manu picked up his dribble and hurled himself into a wall of three defenders - it's a travesty that he didn't get the call, and it demeans the game of basketball!"

for the anti-LBJ club, whatever weapon is handy I suppose.

but, to RF on his original post: fully agree. love this series; it has been everything I hoped for.

We have a winner! Best post of the thread. I

Couldn't watch first half -- bartend on Tuesdays, we had a band, no TV on when we have bands -- but music ended in time for second half and OT. Absolutely great game; Magic said it was one of the greatest he's seen or been involved in since he's been in the game, which is a few years.

So many highlights, but this may be my favorite (btw, what's in Miller's left sock, a pack of fags?)

 

[Ward]

Again, none of which has any bearing on the obvious foul that the refs didn't call.

I'm not disputing that Manu played a poor game--he did. But what does that have to do with a player getting hammered and not drawing a call? If you chalk that up to he didn't "deserve" a call, sorry--I disagree.

Why aren't you showing as much outrage for the countless times this series where Lebron or Wade have driven into traffic and not gotten a similar call? Officiating has been consistent all series. They aren't calling fouls to bail guys out who drive into a wall of help defense. Also, why not nearly as much outrage over the missed travel call?

This isn't directed specifically towards you RF but to people in general. Instead of constantly hoping Lebron does something you can criticize him for, or hoping the Heat catch a break so you can cry out conspiracy just enjoy the great basketball being played. This series has been great. Two great teams who have a ton of respect for eachother just throwing haymakers back and forth. Enjoy it and appreciate it because its not too common

 

[RF2044]

Why aren't you showing as much outrage for the countless times this series where Lebron or Wade have driven into traffic and not gotten a similar call? Officiating has been consistent all series. They aren't calling fouls to bail guys out who drive into a wall of help defense. Also, why not nearly as much outrage over the missed travel call?

This isn't directed specifically towards you RF but to people in general. Instead of constantly hoping Lebron does something you can criticize him for, or hoping the Heat catch a break so you can cry out conspiracy just enjoy the great basketball being played. This series has been great. Two great teams who have a ton of respect for eachother just throwing haymakers back and forth. Enjoy it and appreciate it because its not too common

Simple--because there is a difference between random non-calls that both teams haven't gotten throughout the series in the middle of games, and a non-call that had a direct bearing on an elimination game's outcome. That's why I'm not showing as much outrage about Lebron or Wade not earning calls that they get in the regular season. Nor am I bemoaning all of the times that someone like Parker has driven to the basket and drawn contact but hasn't gotten calls. Those mid-game non-calls aren't nearly as significant as a call that swings the balance of a game late in overtime.

I don't dispute that the refs have been pretty good all series, and have let the players play for the most part. But part of that includes rewarding players who draw legitimate fouls in crucial situations, and Ginoboli didn't get that chance last night in a key situation at the end of a game.

For the record, I'm not saying that the call "cost" San Antonio the game. They were down 1 [I believe], and even if Manu had been awarded free throws, he still would have had to make them. And even if he had made them, they still would only be up 1, giving the ball back to Miami with plenty of time for a game winning shot. So I'm not claiming that the non-call "cost" them the game. There was still some game to be played.

But I do believe that the non-call cost them a deserved CHANCE to win the game. That's what is frustrating to me.

This has been an incredibly close series, with two great teams. People who expressed that the Heat would destroy the Spurs were out of their minds. I just hate seeing stuff like that determine the outcome of an otherwise great game, with two teams playing so evenly matched, in overtime of an elimination game.

 

[Ward]

Simple--because there is a difference between random non-calls that both teams haven't gotten throughout the series in the middle of games, and a non-call that had a direct bearing on an elimination game's outcome. That's why I'm not showing as much outrage about Lebron or Wade not earning calls that they get in the regular season. Nor am I bemoaning all of the times that someone like Parker has driven to the basket and drawn contact but hasn't gotten calls. Those mid-game non-calls aren't nearly as significant as a call that swings the balance of a game late in overtime.

I don't dispute that the refs have been pretty good all series, and have let the players play for the most part. But part of that includes rewarding players who draw legitimate fouls in crucial situations, and Ginoboli didn't get that chance last night in a key situation at the end of a game.

For the record, I'm not saying that the call "cost" San Antonio the game. They were down 1 [I believe], and even if Manu had been awarded free throws, he still would have had to make them. And even if he had made them, they still would only be up 1, giving the ball back to Miami with plenty of time for a game winning shot. So I'm not claiming that the non-call "cost" them the game. There was still some game to be played.

But I do believe that the non-call cost them a deserved CHANCE to win the game. That's what is frustrating to me.

This has been an incredibly close series, with two great teams. People who expressed that the Heat would destroy the Spurs were out of their minds. I just hate seeing stuff like that determine the outcome of an otherwise great game, with two teams playing so evenly matched, in overtime of an elimination game.

Exactly my point. Parker, Wade, Lebron, Ginobli, Chalmers, Green everyone hasn't gotten that call for 6 games throughout the series. They've been consistent with it. A big gripe with officials is when they aren't consistent with their calls. So why would they call a play different than they have all series long? They've established what is and isn't going to be called on plays like those so why change it on such a huge play?

I guess too the issue I wonder about is why aren't you as bothered by the error allowing Duncan to illegally substitute into the game during the official review at the end after Allen's tying 3? Or the travel before the call in question of foul or no foul?

I agree with your premise, but start to get lost in if its because you wanted to see a fair outcome or are mad the Heat won. I mean just how you framed that sentence how Lebron and Wade don't earn the calls but Parker draws contact and doesn't get the call.Then you say how it didn't cost the Spurs the game but end your post with the call determined the outcome. I thought Heat in 6. I'll fully admit I underestimated San Antonio. The series has been great. I'm real pumped for tomorrow night and hopefully its another classic.

 

[tbonezone]

informal poll:

which would you rather watch:

a: NBA FINALS
b: NHL FINALS
c: ZOMBIES

myself i'd have to rank them B-C-A. love hockey. been a great playoff run . zombies are cool. brain hungry but cool. NBA blows.

 

[RF2044]

Exactly my point. Parker, Wade, Lebron, Ginobli, Chalmers, Green everyone hasn't gotten that call for 6 games throughout the series. They've been consistent with it. A big gripe with officials is when they aren't consistent with their calls. So why would they call a play different than they have all series long? They've established what is and isn't going to be called on plays like those so why change it on such a huge play?

I guess too the issue I wonder about is why aren't you as bothered by the error allowing Duncan to illegally substitute into the game during the official review at the end after Allen's tying 3? Or the travel before the call in question of foul or no foul?

I agree with your premise, but start to get lost in if its because you wanted to see a fair outcome or are mad the Heat won. I mean just how you framed that sentence how Lebron and Wade don't earn the calls but Parker draws contact and doesn't get the call.Then you say how it didn't cost the Spurs the game but end your post with the call determined the outcome. I thought Heat in 6. I'll fully admit I underestimated San Antonio. The series has been great. I'm real pumped for tomorrow night and hopefully its another classic.

Really, O'sully--that's what you're wondering? Why I am not as bothered by Duncan ostensibly illegally entering the game--an issue I wasn't even aware of until seeing your post--versus a game defining non-call that influenced the outcome of the game?

Also, I framed that sentence specifically in response to how YOU complained above about Lebron / Wade not getting calls.

And in terms of my motivation, I'm displeased that an unbelievable game that went to overtime, with two teams competing their a$$e$ off, ends up swinging one way or the other due to poor officiating. Simple as that.

 

[Ward]

Really, O'sully--that's what you're wondering? Why I am not as bothered by Duncan ostensibly illegally entering the game--an issue I wasn't even aware of until seeing your post--versus a game defining non-call that influenced the outcome of the game?

Also, I framed that sentence specifically in response to how YOU complained above about Lebron / Wade not getting calls.

And in terms of my motivation, I'm displeased that an unbelievable game that went to overtime, with two teams competing their a$$e$ off, ends up swinging one way or the other due to poor officiating. Simple as that.

You're mad the Heat won. My point is it was a great game between two great teams that will be remembered for a long time. Don't diminish it by focusing on one no call that's been a no call all series and acting like it was this egregious mistake that would've changed history. Especially if you're going to repeatedly and conveniently ignore any calls/no calls that San Antonio benefitted from.

 

[HOFCeluck]

If this were the "Syracuse Heat" the narrative would be our great help defense and the great no call at the end of the game by the refs.

 

[RF2044]

You're mad the Heat won. My point is it was a great game between two great teams that will be remembered for a long time. Don't diminish it by focusing on one no call that's been a no call all series and acting like it was this egregious mistake that would've changed history. Especially if you're going to repeatedly and conveniently ignore any calls/no calls that San Antonio benefitted from.

No, I'm disappointed that the heat won. And I'm disappointed that in a tremendously well played, evenly matched game that went to overtime, a non-call swung the pendulum.

Rationalize all you'd like, but making vague allusions to non-calls that Wade / Lebron might not have gotten is a far cry from a pivotal non-call at the end of a game that distinctly shaped an elimination game's outcome.

Also, the armchair psychology is really a hoot. If the heat win tonight, I won't be mad. BFD. There are a lot more important things in life to worry about than that.

 

[jordoo]

game 7 2nd half prediction! Wade cools off the Spurs shoot better and win by 7.

 

[thebigeast44]

Sit down Green after he finally hits a 3 - Pop is a great coach but he has sucked the last 2 games IMHO.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

This is going to be a great end to a great series.

 

[OrangeDW]

Sit down Green after he finally hits a 3 - Pop is a great coach but he has sucked the last 2 games IMHO.

His only mistake was not sitting him sooner.

 

[OrangeDW]

Eagerly waiting for the first of the usual suspects to proclaim "Kawhi Leonard is better than Melo!", after first learning his name last week.

You know it's coming.

 

[Orangezoo]

one green triple doesnt warrant keeping him on the floor- he has been a liability handling the ball.

 

[PoppyHart]

Eagerly waiting for the first of the usual suspects to proclaim "Kawhi Leonard is better than Melo!", after first learning his name last week.

You know it's coming.

I'm sure that was directed at me, among others, but I said 3 years ago that he was what we hoped Paul Harris would be. I remember RF agreeing with me.

That being said, I think he's a sleeper for the 2016 Olympics.

 

[Orangezoo]

miami 10-24 from 3...

 

[RF2044]

miami 10-24 from 3...

And meanwhile, San Antonio can't throw the ball in the ocean.

 

[OrangeDW]

I'm sure that was directed at me, among others, but I said 3 years ago that he was what we hoped Paul Harris would be. I remember RF agreeing with me.

That being said, I think he's a sleeper for the 2016 Olympics.

Well, I didn't remember the names, but now that i see yours...yes...you were the guy hyping up George after his good games and ignoring his bad ones!

Though I know you didn't first learn his name last week, but others certainly did.

Kawhi being better than Harris was a good call.

And I agree that he could become an outstanding player. He's been great tonight.

 

[RF2044]

I'm sure that was directed at me, among others, but I said 3 years ago that he was what we hoped Paul Harris would be. I remember RF agreeing with me.

That being said, I think he's a sleeper for the 2016 Olympics.

I really liked him at San Diego State--big strong kid with some versatility, and most of all he plays relentlessly. Hence, why I think the Paul Harris comparison is / was a good one.

Leonard is a great role playing guy on a good team. Not sure how he'd do as the featured option offensively, but he's certainly capable. He reminds me a lot of Jerome Kersey from the Blazers.