Top five greatest basketball players ever

[Eric15]

Notice a name that's missing from almost everybody's lists?
Kobe.

Kobe tends to show up in the 6-10 range in all the greatest player ever lists that I've ever read. I think you could put him as reasonably high as #5 or even #4.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

Love these all-time best battles.

It's not possible to have an all-time top 5 without Oscar.

You have to take people in the era in which they played.
The man averaged a triple double for an ENTIRE SEASON!

Yes, players (guards) are a lot bigger so Oscar might not have that advantage if he played today.
But with modern ball handling rule interpretations he would NEVER have a turnover.

Oscar also gets extra points from me for the struggles he endured and won as a young black kid and for having the courage, as an all-star and superstar, to become a major player in the players' union nascent days.

I think the Big O and Zeke fr0m Cabin Creek could still make a roster today if they got in the gym for a few months with LeBron's trainer.

 

[CusefanATL]

I'm surprised John Hollinger's Player Efficiency Rating hasn't been mentioned in this thread.

I'm a big analytics guy and tend to focus on PER and Win Shares.

Only 20 times in NBA history has a player posted a PER above 30 (doubling the efficiency rating of the average player) for a full season. Four players have accomplished that feat multiple times: MJ (4), Lebron (4), Wilt (3) and Shaq (3).

Here's the full list:

1. Wilt Chamberlain (1963) - 31.82
2. Wilt Chamberlain (1962) - 31.74
3. Michael Jordan (1988) - 31.71
4. Lebron James (2009) - 31.67
5. Michael Jordan (1991) - 31.63
5. Wilt Chamberlain (1964) - 31.63
7. Lebron James (2013) - 31.62
8. Stephen Curry (2016) - 31.5
9. Michael Jordan (1990) - 31.18
10. Michael Jordan (1989) - 31.14
11. Lebron James (2010) - 31.11
12. Anthony Davis (2015) - 30.8
13. Lebron James (2012) - 30.74
14. David Robinson (1994) - 30.66
15. Shaquille O'Neal (2000) - 30.65
16. Shaquille O'Neal (1999) - 30.55
17. Dwyane Wade (2009) - 30.36
18. Tracy McGrady (2003) - 30.27
19. Shaquille O'Neal (2001) - 30.23
20. Chris Paul (2009) - 30.0

Note that no one accomplished a PER over 30 between 1964 and 1988 until Jordan did it...and he did it four straight seasons.

Only five players in NBA history have accomplished a Win Share of 20 or more: Wilt (6), MJ (3), Kareem (3), Lebron (1) and David Robinson (1).

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1972) - 25.4
2. Wilt Chamberlain (1964) - 25.0
3. Wilt Chamberlain (1962) - 23.1
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1971) - 22.3
5. Wilt Chamberlain (1967) - 21.9
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (1973) - 21.9
7. Wilt Chamberlain (1966) - 21.4
8. Michael Jordan (1988) - 21.2
9. Wilt Chamberlain (1963) - 20.9
10. Wilt Chamberlain (1968) - 20.4
11. Michael Jordan (1996) - 20.4
12. Michael Jordan (1991) - 20.3
13. Lebron James (2009) - 20.3
14. David Robinson (1994) - 20.0

And only four players have had a season with a PER of 30+ and a Win Share of 20+.

Wilt Chamberlain (3)
Michael Jordan (2)
David Robinson (1)
Lebron James (1)

I'm not sure about my Top 5 but imo Jordan is the greatest ever, Wilt is likely second just based on his dominance over the inferior competition at the time he played (sort of like Babe Ruth) and Lebron has already accomplished enough in his career to warrant a spot in the Top 5 at least.

Underrated players who I don't think get enough mentions in 'All-Time' discussions like these: Shaq, Oscar Robertson, David Robinson, Karl Malone, and Dirk Nowitzki.

Overrated: Bill Russell

the win share seems pretty big man focused

 

[CusefanATL]

Oscar also gets extra points from me for the struggles he endured and won as a young black kid and for having the courage, as an all-star and superstar, to become a major player in the players' union nascent days.

I think the Big O and Zeke fr0m Cabin Creek could still make a roster today if they got in the gym for a few months with LeBron's trainer.

or the famous trainer from Cuse.

RobMacBasketball - The Official Website of Rob McClanaghan

 

[Melancer46]

All-time:
1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Lebron
5. Magic

That I've watched a fair amount of:
1. MJ (I was too young to watch a ton of basketball during his time, but I watched him in the playoffs the last few years)
2. LeBron
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Shaq

 

[Knicks411]

Kobe tends to show up in the 6-10 range in all the greatest player ever lists that I've ever read. I think you could put him as reasonably high as #5 or even #4.

I think he would be closer to the back end of my top 10, if he even made it there. I'm sure this will start a flame war but I'm not sure how many years Kobe was the best player in the league. I might make the argument the answer was 0 or 1 year where he was the best player in the league, which seems awfully low to be in the top 5 of all time.

I think my top 5 is something like

MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Magic

That 5 spot is real tough.

 

[Cusefan0307]

the win share seems pretty big man focused

Not necessarily, the most recent Win Shares winners are Curry, Harden, CP, Durant, and Lebron... A big man hasn't been a Win Shares leader since Garnett in 2005.

 

[NineOneSeven]

All-time probably

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Lebron
Bird

Who I remember seeing play (I'll go post 2000 and played at least 5 solid years)

1. Lebron
2. Duncan
3. Kobe
4. Shaq
5. Garnett
6. Wade
7. Dirk
8. Iverson
9. Kidd
10. Webber
11. Nash
12. Pierce
13. Durant
14. Paul
15. McGrady

Any comments on my post 2000 list?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Lebron, MJ, Wilt, Magic, Kareem

In order. Just never seen a guy that size do what he's been able to do physically on the court and make it look effortless.

Magic Johnson did a lot of what LeBron does now. It's amazing how quickly our memories fade. The guy was the first PG anywhere near that size, and he played center in an NBA Finals game 7 (i believe) to win the title. Better assist man than LBJ, not quite as explosive, but he didn't have to travel all the time, and Magic didn't get away with just bulling guys out of the way as he drove to the hoop. Magic still played basketball. LeBron plays football but with a round ball and a hoop.

 

[Eric15]

I think he would be closer to the back end of my top 10, if he even made it there. I'm sure this will start a flame war but I'm not sure how many years Kobe was the best player in the league.

I think Kobe was probably the best player in the league for about 3 years in the mid-2000s (around 2005-2007). After Shaq and before Lebron.

 

[Knicks411]

Any comments on my post 2000 list?

I think Kobe is too high, I'd put Shaq ahead of him, maybe KG also. I think Paul is way way too low, but then again, until he makes a deep playoff run I guess I can see the argument against him. But the dude's numbers are tremendous, like all time great. I also think Durant is too low, he's somewhat mid career so I get it but I can't see Iverson, for instance, ahead of him.

 

[Eric15]

and he played center in an NBA Finals game 7 (i believe) to win the title.

That's actually a common misconception. Magic only jumped center to start the game, but another guy actually played center. (I didn't realize this until recently).

 

[br801]

You my friend just accomplished the impossible. You offered your opinion on a lighthearted sports topic.

I'm trying to become a better person, Eric.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Kobe was probably the best player in the league for about 3 years in the mid-2000s (around 2005-2007). After Shaq and before Lebron.

I figured that's the era people would say; it's really the only time you could say I think. But was he better than Duncan? Duncan was basically 20-11 with all time defense and anchored 2 title winning teams. Kobe was 32-5-5 on pretty meh teams. In those 3 seasons the Lakers were slightly under 500. I understand one player can only do so much, but it is basketball, where a player can do more than any other sport, and how often does the best player in the game play on a 500 team?

 

[Eric15]

I figured that's the era people would say; it's really the only time you could say I think. But was he better than Duncan? Duncan was basically 20-11 with all time defense and anchored 2 title winning teams. Kobe was 32-5-5 on pretty meh teams. In those 3 seasons the Lakers were slightly under 500. I understand one player can only do so much, but it is basketball, where a player can do more than any other sport, and how often does the best player in the game play on a 500 team?

Fair points all around.

The mid-2000s were some dark days for the NBA. Abysmal ratings and no star power.

 

[Ward]

Any comments on my post 2000 list?

Was fun reading that list and thinking about how I would rank these guys I grew up watching. My comments below are based more on memory and not so much a deep dive analytically. I think I'm falling victim though to remembering guys at their best and their peak as opposed to entire body of work.

I would put Pierce behind Durant and Paul. I go back and forth on him behind McGrady. Pierce had more success in the postseason, again I didn't really look at their overall career numbers, but I just keep thinking I'm not sure Pierce was ever as good as McGrady was in his best years in Orlando. He was crazy. Biased too because when I was wearing his black and blue sneakers (the first edition) I felt like I was the absolute MAN when I played.

Maybe I'd put Wade above Garnett. He has three rings and while Garnett probably has to be given a lot of credit for "re-inventing" this generation of the face up big Wade had stretches where he was dominant in the playoffs and carried some of the Miami teams to respectability before LeBron came down. I think too that there was a stretch where you may have been able to argue that Wade was the best 2 guard in the league ahead of Kobe. Kobe just usually had a better supporting cast which led to more wins and overall team success.

I'd put Kidd ahead of Iverson. Iverson was an unbelievable scorer and player to watch but if I were building a team I'd probably go Kidd as my alpha guard instead of Iverson because he maximized his teammates abilities a little better. Also led those Nets teams to back to back Finals, though Iverson led a rag tag group to the Finals one year as well.

Shaq could've won as many championships as he wanted in the early 00's and made a claim to be remembered in a special spot in history if he made it his only priority. I feel like with Kobe he was obsessed with winning. Terrible teammate, but obsessed with winning as many rings as possible. Shaq really liked winning but also wanted to enjoy life and the perks his success brought him. Absolutely nothing wrong with that at all just throwing it out there that he could have potentially been even more dominant for even longer than he already was.

 

[Knicks411]

Fair points all around.

The mid-2000s were some dark days for the NBA. Abysmal ratings and no star power.

Yeah it's really kinda crazy when you think about it. Looking back the star power was probably there; to pick a year, in 2005 you had Lebron/Kobe/Duncan/Garnett/Shaq, among others. But Lebron wasn't quite Lebron yet, Shaq was a bit down from his peak, KG was languishing in Minny, etc. Really the rule changes that started in that time period started to pay dividends in the years that followed.

If you look at the ratings; the 2005 finals went 7 games, Detroit/Spurs. The series averaged about 12.5 million viewers. The series that just ended averaged about 20.3 million; that's even worse when you consider how much more fragmented tv viewership is now even compared to a decade ago. Game 7 on Sunday did 31 million people; Game 7 in 2005 did 19 million; or put another way, Game 7 in 2005 did fewer viewers than the average for the entire series that just ended.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Fair points all around.

The mid-2000s were some dark days for the NBA. Abysmal ratings and no star power.

Tim Donaghy scandal and controversy over the 06 finals did not help.

 

[Doc5120]

Not necessarily, the most recent Win Shares winners are Curry, Harden, CP, Durant, and Lebron... A big man hasn't been a Win Shares leader since Garnett in 2005.

I think part of that is due to the way the game is played now. Much more guard and perimeter oriented. There are a lot less prototypical big men. Who is the best C in the league now? DeAndre Jordan, Dwight Howard? Not a whole lot to pick from these days.

 

[orangenirvana]

Kobe tends to show up in the 6-10 range in all the greatest player ever lists that I've ever read. I think you could put him as reasonably high as #5 or even #4.

That's crazy to me. Kobe doesn't belong anywhere inside 15-20 imo.

 

[orangenirvana]

the win share seems pretty big man focused

Not really. Last season the top three leaders in WS were guards - Harden, Paul and Curry. This season none of the top 8 were big men (PF or C).

 

[Knicks411]

That's crazy to me. Kobe doesn't belong anywhere inside 15-20 imo.

I'm probably one of the more anti Kobe guys around, but the guy was a really good player for a long time. I'm pretty sure he's around 10-15 for me.

 

[CusefanATL]

Not really. Last season the top three leaders in WS were guards - Harden, Paul and Curry. This season none of the top 8 were big men (PF or C).

because they have become obsolete in todays game.

but look at your all time winshares leaderboard. its all big men.

 

[Melancer46]

Any comments on my post 2000 list?

It's fine. I'd argue that Kidd, CP3, and maybe Nash are all > Iverson, but I understand why people loved Iverson's game. I just wasn't really a fan of his. And I'd probably put Durant ahead of Pierce already.

 

[Cusefan0307]

because they have become obsolete in todays game.

but look at your all time winshares leaderboard. its all big men.

Winshares/48 may be better. MJ is number one overall there.