UNC Postmortem

[IthacaMatt]

Understand: you're a big TT fan, and he was good at the stuff he did.
I recall some of stuff he didn't do, and based on that would prefer Maliq on my team.
Respect your opinion -we just disagree on TT's greatness as a complete player.

No, I'm hardly a big fan. But this myth that he was absolutely terrible on defense was created by Boeheim in his press conferences, and just isn't supported by the numbers. If he was "insufficient" on defense, recall that he was also a forward who was also played out of position at center. He played all 34 games for us that year, and he started 21 times.

He was only a freshman, and he was a useful piece here. He could have grown into a better player for us, but his mother wanted him home, and Seton Hall interfered. What can you do? He never played as well as he played here.

That doesn't mean he sucked. Guys who suck don't get 18 pts, 8 rebounds and 3 blocks in about 20 minutes against ACC competition. They have those games against LeMoyne.

 

[Red Holzman]

Understand: I speak of myths. (JK)
Honestly, I respect your opinion and that's fine if you think mine is based on myths.
I'll stand by "my truth" LOL

 

[IthacaMatt]

Your memory is correct. There were a number of times I specifically focused on TT on the defensive end that year and there was a total lack of effort, trying, giving a crap etc - and I don't say that often or lightly.

We could say that about our current star player, and a lot of guys from time to time.
I reiterate: blocks, steals and rebounds are all statistics relating to defense. They are empirical.

In 18 minutes a game as a freshman, he gave us 9 points, 4 rebounds, 1 block and 2/3 of a steal and an assist every game. He shot 55% from the floor and 65% from the foul line.

Maliq, as a sophomore, is only a bit better than freshman T Thompson - 10 points, 6 rebounds, 2+ steals, a block and an assist, in 1/3 more time per game than Thompson (18 v 24 min), a year more developed in the program. He and Maliq are about equal, although Maliq is clearly better at steals.

Maliq just got steamrolled against UNC. Was he "terrible" on defense? Or was he just playing out of position against a much bigger guy?

Freshman Maliq played 20 minutes a game; much closer to Freshman Thompson. Maliq put up 6 pts, 5 reb, around 1 ass't and 1steal, and half a block. Thompson was better than freshman year Maliq.

2020 Quincy Guerrier played similar minutes as Thompson, is a bit shorter, but a PF, too. He gave us 7 pts, 5 reb, and half an assist, steal and block.

Marek played about 20 minutes a game in 2019 and gave us 4.1 pts, 3.5 reb, 1.6 asst and 1.3 steals per game. Matt Moyer played a similar role on the 2018 - undersized defensive forward, not much on the offensive end. Thompson was better than any of those guys, in my opinion.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Understand: I speak of myths. (JK)
Honestly, I respect your opinion and that's fine if you think mine is based on myths.
I'll stand by "my truth" LOL

I'm saying the myth creation was by Boeheim, not you.
Boeheim said about Craig Forth as a freshman after a game, "He got one more rebound than a dead guy."
The next year, he won a national championship with him.
Boeheim used to say Boeheim kind of things.

 

[Red Holzman]

I'm saying the myth creation was by Boeheim, not you.
Boeheim said about Craig Forth as a freshman after a game, "He got one more rebound than a dead guy."
The next year, he won a national championship with him.

My interpretation was that you were saying that I believe in a myth created by JB.
Again, it's all fine regardless, and I respect your opinion.

 

[sufandu]

Maliq is like a Wendell Alexis or Taurean Thompson kind of player. He's not the focal point, but a winning team needs guys like him, or like they need a Josh Pace type of glue guy - make the simple play consistently. Don't try to do things you can't really do.

I agree, which is why I said he's a role player. But people are trying to say he is more than that. If he was as good as people are trying to say he is, we'd be better than we are. When we go into these long offensive droubts a legitimate inside player would go a long way toward curbing those. If he was that guy, we'd dump it down to him and say "get us back on track." We don't do that because he's not that guy. He's a nice option to finish at the rim when one of our guards beats his man and draws a secondary defender. To be good and have a chance against good teams we need someone that can more than a glue guy inside. We need a guy that can beat the defense when they know what's coming. That guy isn't on the roster this year. It's not realistic to ever expect another Melo, but if this team had a Hak and a Devendorf we'd be a lock for the tournament.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I agree, which is why I said he's a role player. But people are trying to say he is more than that. If he was as good as people are trying to say he is, we'd be better than we are. When we go into these long offensive droubts a legitimate inside player would go a long way toward curbing those. If he was that guy, we'd dump it down to him and say "get us back on track." We don't do that because he's not that guy. He's a nice option to finish at the rim when one of our guards beats his man and draws a secondary defender. To be good and have a chance against good teams we need someone that can more than a glue guy inside. We need a guy that can beat the defense when they know what's coming. That guy isn't on the roster this year. It's not realistic to ever expect another Melo, but if this team had a Hak and a Devendorf we'd be a lock for the tournament.

Yes, Maliq would be the sidekick to a low post big. Kind of like how Otis Hill was the sidekick to John Wallace, or Rick Jackson was to Arinze. Both had more low post game than Maliq, but if he has a low post center to draw the attention and the double team, he would be really effective. He's a deceptively good interior passer, he has a knack for offensive rebounds and tip-ins. He would be feasting on Jesse Edwards' misses right now.

 

[sufandu]

Yes, Maliq would be the sidekick to a low post big. Kind of like how Otis Hill was the sidekick to John Wallace, or Rick Jackson was to Arinze. Both had more low post game than Maliq, but if he has a low post center to draw the attention and the double team, he would be really effective. He's a deceptively good interior passer, he has a knack for offensive rebounds and tip-ins. He would be feasting on Jesse Edwards' misses right now.

Yeah. And he wouldn't have to guard the other team's big man or be our primary rebounder. I think not having a legit interior guy is hurting us even more than lacking shooters.

 

[ar inj]

I'm saying the myth creation was by Boeheim, not you.
Boeheim said about Craig Forth as a freshman after a game, "He got one more rebound than a dead guy."
The next year, he won a national championship with him.
Boeheim used to say Boeheim kind of things.

Just to set the record straight, Boeheim made the rebound comment about Conrad McRae and to really set the record straight, Abe Lemons made the comment before Boeheim did.

 

[baggerbob]

Yeah. And he wouldn't have to guard the other team's big man or be our primary rebounder. I think not having a legit interior guy is hurting us even more than lacking shooters.

You put a freshman DC or Billy Owens on this team we are in the tournament. Jim quit recruiting about 8 years ago and the yearly recruiting got worse.
It's going to take a few years to get enough talent to compete at a high level again.

 

[Dcuse]

You put a freshman DC or Billy Owens on this team we are in the tournament. Jim quit recruiting about 8 years ago and the yearly recruiting got worse.
It's going to take a few years to get enough talent to compete at a high level again.

Really? A few years huh?

 

[Hopkins16]

A quality player at any position hitting the portal, when approached by our coaches, and doing their homework, should be able to see major minutes for the taking. As long as we free up roster space, we should be able to improve drastically next season.

 

[capeorange]

You put a freshman DC or Billy Owens on this team we are in the tournament. Jim quit recruiting about 8 years ago and the yearly recruiting got worse.
It's going to take a few years to get enough talent to compete at a high level again.

We've got the same guys that were doing Jim's recruiting and judging talent running the show now.
Serious question, do you really think Red and company can bring up the talent level?
I'm a little concerned that he brought in players with injury history and a center who can't jump.

 

[baggerbob]

We've got the same guys that were doing Jim's recruiting and judging talent running the show now.
Serious question, do you really think Red and company can bring up the talent level?
I'm a little concerned that he brought in players with injury history and a center who can't jump.

With the way things went down with JB, there really wasn't much he could do.
They weren't expecting Joe, and Jesse to both leave, so recruiting was limited.
I would expect a few of the current team will be talked to about moving on.
So they probably will bring in a couple more from the portal.
JB bringing in a 6 man freshman class his last year was a disaster.

 

[sufandu]

You put a freshman DC or Billy Owens on this team we are in the tournament. Jim quit recruiting about 8 years ago and the yearly recruiting got worse.
It's going to take a few years to get enough talent to compete at a high level again.

Yeah. I think even a really solid guy that's not elite like those guys like an upperclassman Rick Jackson or Hakim Warrick makes this team very different. People keep talking about shooters, but we've seen what it's like to have shooters that can't get open. Having a reliable guy that can hit high percentage shots frommthe post stabilizes the whole offense.

 

[baggerbob]

Yeah. I think even a really solid guy that's not elite like those guys like an upperclassman Rick Jackson or Hakim Warrick makes this team very different. People keep talking about shooters, but we've seen what it's like to have shooters that can't get open. Having a reliable guy that can hit high percentage shots frommthe post stabilizes the whole offense.

A player who can score inside and draw fouls, makes the midrange shots easier.
Plus players like DC and Billy sometimes were doubled, and were good passers for easy layups.

 

[Fly Rodder]

but we've seen what it's like to have shooters that can't get open

Shooters in the recent past couldn't play the defense. They can't get open because we play an archaic offense that eschews movement and passing through multiple players in favor of ISO dribble drive off screens.

 

[orangecuse]

With the way things went down with JB, there really wasn't much he could do.
They weren't expecting Joe, and Jesse to both leave, so recruiting was limited.
I would expect a few of the current team will be talked to about moving on.
So they probably will bring in a couple more from the portal.
JB bringing in a 6 man freshman class his last year was a disaster.

If I recall correctly, he also stated how it was one of "his better recruiting classes ever."

Reminds me of that scene in "About Last Night" where Jim Belushi says to Rob Lowe; "Is that the girl from last night?" Lowe's response; "Yeah, I just picked up the phone and she was there." Belushi's response; "Right, pull this finger and it plays Jingle Bells!"

Classic!

 

[VikesCuse84]

What’s really sad is how far the program has fallen the last decade. We went from being a perennial Top 25 team (and even better than that from 2009-2014) with great recruiting classes and Sweet 16 at minimum expectations to hoping to possibly be on the bubble. We can’t compete against any of the top teams. Just depressing seeing and feeling how far removed we are from being an elite program.

 

[DoctorBombay]

What a wasted talent. Poor defense or not, he was a gifted scorer in the ACC, couldn’t get off the pine anywhere else. I’d like to know the real story behind his journey.

 

[two3zone]

Seems far more deep seeded than that.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We've got the same guys that were doing Jim's recruiting and judging talent running the show now.
Serious question, do you really think Red and company can bring up the talent level?
I'm a little concerned that he brought in players with injury history and a center who can't jump.

That's why he added the AAU guy with the connections.

 

[capeorange]

That's why he added the AAU guy with the connections.

Wasn't he here when we brought in the previously injured players and the 5 who can't jump?

 

[kingtidge]

Yeah. I think even a really solid guy that's not elite like those guys like an upperclassman Rick Jackson or Hakim Warrick makes this team very different. People keep talking about shooters, but we've seen what it's like to have shooters that can't get open. Having a reliable guy that can hit high percentage shots frommthe post stabilizes the whole offense.

You're assuming such a player would get the ball passed to them on an open cut.

Q looks for those passes but that's about it... and he passes into seems that are closed or collapse immediately too mcuh.

 

[sufandu]

A player who can score inside and draw fouls, makes the midrange shots easier.
Plus players like DC and Billy sometimes were doubled, and were good passers for easy layups.

Oh, absolutely. I guess what I'm saying is that it's a no brainer that an elite player of the year candidate would change a team. I was just saying even a good player that is a tier, maybe 2, down could make a huge difference.