What Will It Take...

[SoBeCuse]

I don't understand how not being very good is an excuse for not having ball movement on offense. I'm not exaggerating when I say that teams in my son's 7th grade league move the ball better than this team. I don't hold it against Howard, Brissett, and Battle for taking contested threes and trying to drive through three defenders. That's all that our offense allows them to do.

Boeheim scrapped ball movement this year. He said so earlier. He wants them to just drive and get to the hoop/draw fouls. They just ISO thus low very low assists. He’s not the type to get creative and scheme it up. It’s probably the right call with this bunch. But, you have Frank who sometimes like tonight struggles to get by anybody and picks up his dribble or holds it too long so he can get doubled. He and Tyus sometimes just wait so long to start doing anything. They just pound it into the floor sizing up a defender. They wait for either a screen coming too late or even when it’s strictly ISO sans screen. Frustrating.

 

[hungrychuck]

You're correct according to the ACC media preseason poll. SU was predicted 10th, they currently are 12th, and, the odds of where they will likely finish.

They also play games outside of the conference.

I would not have given them much chance of sweeping UConn, Georgetown and Maryland, for example.

There was significant doubt on this board whether they would achieve a winning record overall.

 

[hungrychuck]

Boeheim scrapped ball movement this year. He said so earlier. He wants them to just drive and get to the hoop/draw fouls. They just ISO thus low very low assists. He’s not the type to get creative and scheme it up. It’s probably the right call with this bunch. But, you have Frank who sometimes like tonight struggles to get by anybody and picks up his dribble or holds it too long so he can get doubled. He and Tyus sometimes just wait so long to start doing anything. They just pound it into the floor sizing up a defender. They wait for either a screen coming too late or even when it’s strictly ISO sans screen. Frustrating.

Even with much better offensive players last year, they didn't move the ball especially well.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I hear that. But having Frank and Tyus just jack up threes with 20 seconds left on the shot clock isn't really great offense either. The answer isn't to go to more ISO ball.

I generally hear you on the schemes and such, the coaching, etc. I don’t know what else there is to do with these guys. Moyer and Marek are really poor offensive players right now. I don’t know what you can do with those guys. ISO is really the only option. The problem is that Tyus is a good ISO player and that’s it really. Oshae isn’t there yet but has flashes. He loses the ball driving sometimes. Frank isn’t the quickest guy but is a good spot up shooter. He doesn’t change speeds well and doesn’t have any moves, really. I do think Moyer and Chukwu SHOULD theoretically be able to give you more but they just don’t. Yes, it ends up with a lot of Frank and Tyus jacking up sort of prayer jumpers as settles but that’s how it is. We DID see some of this last year too.

 

[hungrychuck]

I generally hear you on the schemes and such, the coaching, etc. I don’t know what else there is to do with these guys. Moyer and Marek are really poor offensive players right now. I don’t know what you can do with those guys. ISO is really the only option. The problem is that Tyus is a good ISO player and that’s it really. Oshae isn’t there yet but has flashes. He loses the ball driving sometimes. Frank isn’t the quickest guy but is a good spot up shooter. He doesn’t change speeds well and doesn’t have any moves, really. I do think Moyer and Chukwu SHOULD theoretically be able to give you more but they just don’t. Yes, it ends up with a lot of Frank and Tyus jacking up sort of prayer jumpers as settles but that’s how it is. We DID see some of this last year too.

Moyer doesn't seem to be able to see the rest of the floor when he dribbles.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Even with much better offensive players last year, they didn't move the ball especially well.

Oh I agree. They had some really tough shotmakers and really good shooters who forced and bailed out the crappy sets with freaking tough shots. White was incredible in that sense and Gillon got us a couple of wins on prayers.

 

[orangecuse]

They also play games outside of the conference.

I would not have given them much chance of sweeping UConn, Georgetown and Maryland, for example.

There was significant doubt on this board whether they would achieve a winning record overall.

I believe we were favorites in all three of those games. One was at home, the other was at our home away from home, and a third was our home away from home squared. All four are not dancing.

 

[hungrychuck]

I believe we were favorites in all three of those games. One was at home, the other was at our home away from home, and a third was our home away from home squared. All four are not dancing.

I'd have to agree that all four are not dancing.

And it is a pretty low bar to set in being surprised by wins over Georgetown and Uconn.

It depends on what you thought of SU's prospects preseason. As we've been told repeatedly here, the media don't know anything.

My personal expectations were pretty low, and I know I'm not alone.

 

[two3zone]

seriously though: what it will take for me to reach your conclusion is for this mediocre showing to continue after the sanctions have run their course

till then, all i have to say to the op is premature anything is not good

I wish a double digit loss to BC was mediocre. Thank god we played Pitt twice this year.

 

[Killdozer]

...for the JB apologists to admit that the game has passed him by?

15' - sanctions, but likely NIT
16' - miracle Final Four run because Sparty got upset
17' - NIT
18' - NIT

a .500 record in ACC play since joining.
0 for the ACC tournament.
Unable to run any semblance of an offense.
Makes zero in-game adjustments on offense or defense.
Hasn't recruited a true PG since Kaleb.

I don't want to hear this "sanctions did their job nonsense."

What will it take for folks to acknowledge that he's not getting it done anymore? I love Jim Boeheim for what he's done for Syracuse basketball. Hell, he MADE Syracuse basketball. But one person is not bigger than the overall program. Just as a point of reference, Wooden retired at 65. Dean Smith was 66. Knight was 68 when he retired. Boeheim has indicated he wants to coach another 4 years, until Buddy's done, so he'll be 77 at that point. That's insane. I can't see any way he'll last 4 more years.

He's only hanging on to coach his son. That's incredibly selfish considering he's dragging down this program. What's worked for him in the past isn't working now and he's too old to make wide, sweeping necessary changes to adapt with the times.

How low does this program have to fall before people feel that it's time?

Thank you for a great post. You said everything I've been thinking about JB for the last few years. Even that run to the last final four was mostly luck. JB can't and won't try anything outside of his 1980s play calling on both O and D.

 

[JazzNC]

We are a sinking ship? lol We have gone to two final fours in the last five years. And whether you are sick and tired of the sanction talk is not really important. They hurt us badly. Just like they were designed to do. Now, if you want to go at Jb for them, be my guest. But only a complete dope would think they haven't hurt us badly. While other schools had 4 coaches on the road recruiting, we had two. tough to build relationships with kids that way. We couldn't bring in Huerter because we didn't have any ships available. And Huerter had nothing to do with Battle. heard that nonsense.

Please show me where I said the sanctions didn't hurt us. I didn't write that. I wrote we can't use them as an excuse. I said if JB wants the accolades than he must accept the criticism. He is the head coach. And yes I think we are a sinking ship. We're a .500 ACC team with likely 3 NITs in 4 years. If JB wasn't the oldest D1 coach I'd be inclined to agree with you that calling us a sinking ship is an exaggeration. I wouldnt come to Syracuse if I was a recruit. There are other schools out there that are trending upwards whose coaches aren't on/near the average life expectancy.

And I write this having the utmost appreciation for what JB has done for Syracuse.

 

[cuseguy]

Understand the frustration, and agree that he's not much of a coach on offense.

But in the bigger picture, he's gotten more out of this team than most of us expected in the preseason.

They're just not very good. They've overachieved, and the coaching staff deserves credit for that.

I think we overreacted to the fast start against the OOC schedule. But we came down to earth against the ACC.

This team would have won maybe 3-4 more games with Thompson and Thorpe. Once Thompson left, I lowered my expectations considerably.

I figured something like 18-13. They’re 18-12. So they’re about right where I thought they’d be.

 

[Henny & Coke]

RE: Geno Thorpe - I didn't realize until I looked today, but guy was really good last year with South Florida. Can you imagine adding this stat line to our team this year:

15.1 ppg - 4.6 apg - 2.9 trb - 1.6 steals per - 3.0 turnovers tho

on .395% FG - .375% 3PT - .846 FT

Guy would be our 3rd leading scorer, best 3pt shooter, and 2nd in assists...

So, even after TT left the team so unexpectedly & it looked like 2017-18 would be one hell of a struggle, JB still went out and recruited (what appeared to be) a solid veteran player. Oh well.

Honestly, a few more wins (~2?) gets us in the Tournament...

Considering that we played 6 total games decided by 4 points or less this year, and went 1-5 in those games...if you make that just an even 3-3...that gives us 2 more wins.

Something to think about.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I think we overreacted to the fast start against the OOC schedule. But we came down to earth against the ACC.

This team would have won maybe 3-4 more games with Thompson and Thorpe. Once Thompson left, I lowered my expectations considerably.

I figured something like 18-13. They’re 18-12. So they’re about right where I thought they’d be.

3-4 more wins gets us in the tournament.

Tough to wins games when you have only 4 healthy players.

 

[iommi]

3-4 more wins gets us in the tournament.

Tough to wins games when you have only 4 healthy players.

It's really 3: Tyus, Osahe and Marek. Frank's hand/ wrist might still be bothering him. Not sure about Matt's ankle at this point. Maybe he's okay.

 

[Briancuse]

Have you watched all 42 years?

I'm only 35. But with the talent We had last year should have been at least a sweet 16 team.

 

[cuseguy]

3-4 more wins gets us in the tournament.

Tough to wins games when you have only 4 healthy players.

Yup. They’d probably be about 20-10, 21-9 now with Thompson and Thorpe.

As for injuries, would that be as much of a factor If we had a deeper roster? If we had Thompson, the injuries to Sidibe and Chukwu would be less significant. Neither would have played as much. They would have sat Sidibe for the season weeks ago.

 

[EastCoast2]

How can you give JB a free pass these last 4+ years because of the sanctions? The sanctions are BECAUSE of JB. The performance of the program must be considered with this in mind. He doesn't get a 5-year excuse for sanctions that occurred on his watch, due to events that occurred on his watch. That's like saying, if an employee misses work due to a DUI arrest, give him a free pass because he was forced to miss work.

2014-2015: 18-13
2015-2016: 19-13 (before miracle FF run)... ended 23-14
2016-2017: 19-15
2017-2018: 18-12 (very possible to end 18-14 or 19-14)

We are averaging 14 losses per year. Without that #10 seed in 2016, does anybody still support JB if we miss 4 tournaments in a row? SU has fallen behind programs like Texas Tech, Clemson, USC, South Carolina, Arkansas, Rhode Island, Houston, Auburn, TCU, and Seton Hall. 5 years ago, we all laughed at these programs. They were mostly football schools with atrocious basketball programs we thought would go 1-17 in out vaunted Big East. Now they're ranked higher, and better than us.

 

[OrangeDW]

Please show me where I said the sanctions didn't hurt us. I didn't write that. I wrote we can't use them as an excuse. I said if JB wants the accolades than he must accept the criticism. He is the head coach. And yes I think we are a sinking ship. We're a .500 ACC team with likely 3 NITs in 4 years. If JB wasn't the oldest D1 coach I'd be inclined to agree with you that calling us a sinking ship is an exaggeration. I wouldnt come to Syracuse if I was a recruit. There are other schools out there that are trending upwards whose coaches aren't on the near the average life expectancy.

And I write this having the utmost appreciation for what JB has done for Syracuse.

Many thought we were a sinking ship in the early 2000’s too. 8 seed and Out in the first round in 99. Completely overachieved in 2001 with limited talent(Billy Celluck was a starter) but lost by 35 in round 2 to Kansas, NIT in 2002. We were signing guys like Greg Davis. We’d had like one first round pick in 6 years or something.

Recruiting picked up(because of Weaver and Hopkins), and suddenly we had “Syracuse” level talent again.

You’re only a “sinking ship” if you’re not getting the players. Based on recruiting rankings, we seem to be getting them again after a down period.

 

[OrangeDW]

How can you give JB a free pass these last 4+ years because of the sanctions? The sanctions are BECAUSE of JB. The performance of the program must be considered with this in mind. He doesn't get a 5-year excuse for sanctions that occurred on his watch, due to events that occurred on his watch. That's like saying, if an employee misses work due to a DUI arrest, give him a free pass because he was forced to miss work.

I guess I just don’t agree that the sanctions were BECAUSE of Boeheim. If they were, I don’t think he’d still be here.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I really hope Battle or Brissett stay. Without them we are basically replacing them with Carey and Bazley and right back to being a mid tier ACC bubble team.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

How can you give JB a free pass these last 4+ years because of the sanctions? The sanctions are BECAUSE of JB. The performance of the program must be considered with this in mind. He doesn't get a 5-year excuse for sanctions that occurred on his watch, due to events that occurred on his watch. That's like saying, if an employee misses work due to a DUI arrest, give him a free pass because he was forced to miss work.

But you're saying that if one of your employees gets a DUI, they should take away YOUR license and tow away YOUR car.

You can't be held accountable for the conduct of 50+ employees 24/7, anymore than JB should be thrown in NCAA jail because one of his players was given a box lunch while he was working at a summer job.

 

[OrangeDW]

I really hope Battle or Brissett stay. Without them we are basically replacing them with Carey and Bazley and right back to being a mid tier ACC bubble team.

I guess that depends on the development of everyone else. Marek, Moyer, Chukwu, Howard, and Sidibe - hopefully they all are better players next year. Plus Hughes comes in. I think we’re much deeper and more experienced either way.

I know we’re all used to guys who seemingly should be back shooting up the rankings and leaving...but Brissett - I haven’t seen him even mentioned anywhere except for here. And these same sites seem high on him for next year. I would assume that’s the same feedback he would get if he were to test the waters. But who knows. Guy has talent and has put up numbers - but every team has somebody putting up numbers. His ability to handle, pass, and finish are all weak at this point. He can’t score unless it’s a dunk, a 3, or a FT at this point and brings nothing else offensively...yet.

 

[cuseguy]

I really hope Battle or Brissett stay. Without them we are basically replacing them with Carey and Bazley and right back to being a mid tier ACC bubble team.

Brissett isn’t going anywhere. I mean, this is Syracuse, but he’s a got a lot of work to do. He’s a bull in a china shop every time he tries to shoot near the basket. His handle is highly suspect.

Battle is in a tough situation. In his mind, he thinks he should leave because kids generally believe you need to leave after 2 years or you’re suddenly too old for the NBA - and, really, let’s be honest, that’s the culture at SU. But he’s not projected in the first round, so he’ll likely have to settle for being a second round pick and playing in the G league. His game also needs work.

 

[JazzNC]

Many thought we were a sinking ship in the early 2000’s too. 8 seed and Out in the first round in 99. Completely overachieved in 2001 with limited talent(Billy Celluck was a starter) but lost by 35 in round 2 to Kansas, NIT in 2002. We were signing guys like Greg Davis. We’d had like one first round pick in 6 years or something.

Recruiting picked up(because of Weaver and Hopkins), and suddenly we had “Syracuse” level talent again.

You’re only a “sinking ship” if you’re not getting the players. Based on recruiting rankings, we seem to be getting them again after a down period.

I'd be inclined to agree if we did not have the oldest D1 coach. Settling for grad transfers and poor scouting on guys like Dolejaz, Moyer, Kaleb Joseph, etc and not recruiting a pure PG is not exactly stellar recruiting. 2018 we have a good class coming in. I'd be shocked if we land a top 15 recruiting class ever again in the JB era.

And the idea that your only a sinking ship if you're not getting players is not true. You can be a sinking ship if you've got an aging coach, and 3/4 years in the NIT. This isn't going to get better IMO. Next year we'll be improved and everyone with the Orange goggles will be back in fantasy land that our issues are solved, not realizing it's fools gold. I predict next year will be the last NCAA tournament in the JB era.