Will next year's DEs be able to generate a pass rush

[Alsacs]

On third down a lot this year we would only send 3 and drop 8 into coverage. This never worked against a good passing QB and we faced a lot of good passing QBs.
I know we played a lot of Freshman at DE do we expect them to be able to
Get more of a pass rush next year?
We don't need Dwight Freeney or Chandler Jones next year we need Brandon Sharpe types and we would be okay.
Next year's schedule giving the team 3 non-P5 teams to start the year should give the
Guys a chance to get some confidence.

 

[RF2044]

Obviously, that's TBD. But I don't see a Freeney / Sharpe / LaCasse type amongst the guys who played last year. Maybe Nelson will be that type of player.

But what I DO think we can see happen with Black, Coleman, and Pickard is that they follow in the footsteps of recent DEs Welsh / Robinson who didn't have the most natural ability, but got themselves into peak shape and were solid playmakers as upperclassmen against both the run and pass. Not anywhere close to Freeney's league, by any means, but relentless guys who played hard every snap and squeezed every drop of productivity out of themselves they could to get the job done.

IMO, that would be best case scenario for this group--in year 2, go from being a liability [due to the difficulty for true frosh having to compete against older, stronger, more experienced players] to a dependable group, and then mix in more pass rush over the next three seasons via recruiting. Maybe there's a JUCO out there who could bolster this group more than Wilson.

I have a feeling that in a year or two, we're going to look at DE as a positional unit of relative strength, versus the problem area it was this year. Thank god Black / Coleman were able to contribute as true frosh.

 

[PhatOrange]

Obviously, that's TBD. But I don't see a Freeney / Sharpe / LaCasse type amongst the guys who played last year. Maybe Nelson will be that type of player.

But what I DO think we can see happen with Black, Coleman, and Pickard is that they follow in the footsteps of recent DEs Welsh / Robinson who didn't have the most natural ability, but got themselves into peak shape and were solid playmakers as upperclassmen against both the run and pass. Not anywhere close to Freeney's league, by any means, but relentless guys who played hard every snap and squeezed every drop of productivity out of themselves they could to get the job done.

I could be wrong, I'll have to go check stats, but I don't think Sharpe and LaCasse really took off until their junior and senior years.

I believe Black and Coleman are potentially every bit as good as any defensive ends we've had in a looong time.

 

[PhatOrange]

On third down a lot this year we would only send 3 and drop 8 into coverage. This never worked against a good passing QB and we faced a lot of good passing QBs.
I know we played a lot of Freshman at DE do we expect them to be able to
Get more of a pass rush next year?
We don't need Dwight Freeney or Chandler Jones next year we need Brandon Sharpe types and we would be okay.
Next year's schedule giving the team 3 non-P5 teams to start the year should give the
Guys a chance to get some confidence.

2nd half of the season I felt like we sent a lot of blitzes and rushed 5/6 guys on a lot of passing snaps. A bit of change in their philosophy? would have to really examine it, maybe upperdeck has.

 

[RF2044]

I could be wrong, I'll have to go check stats, but I don't think Sharpe and LaCasse really took off until their junior and senior years.

I think Black and Coleman are potentially every bit as good as any defensive ends we've had in a looong time.

Sharpe contributed more early, but got injured repeatedly his first three years; had a great senior year. You are spot on with LaCasse, he had the speed / athleticism, but had to "grow" into his frame.

I like Black and Coleman, too. The question is, can we generate consistent upfield pass rush from this group and have them make plays in the backfield, and I think that remains to be seen.

 

[PhatOrange]

The question is, can we generate consistent upfield pass rush from this group and have them make plays in the backfield, and I think that remains to be seen.

that's the problem with freshman. Thing is Black/Coleman are starting with good frames, and to me appear to have very good speed. So now they have to get stronger, learn technique and become wiser with experience. The seasoned OT's they're facing are probably a little different than the ones they saw in high school; like by a 1000 miles. They can't out athletic or overpower the guy in front of them like they did in high school - yet.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

This plays into a bigger series of questions.

How much better will the current young players get?

Can the next class be better immediately? How much better can they get?

 

[RF2044]

that's the problem with freshman. Thing is Black/Coleman are starting with good frames, and to me appear to have very good speed. So now they have to get stronger, learn technique and become wiser with experience. The seasoned OT's they're facing are probably a little different than the ones they saw in high school; like by a 1000 miles. They can't out athletic or overpower the guy in front of them like they did in high school - yet.

Which is why I compared them to Robinson / Welsh. Guys who were difference makers as upperclassmen, but maybe not amongst the best DEs we've ever had.

Don't get me wrong, I love these guys, and I'm excited about their potential [Coleman and Black in particular]. I just don't take for granted that they will eventually be great pass rushers. Time will tell. The difference that I see was that elite pass rushers like Freeney / Sharpe [to a lesser extent] were able to demonstrate that ability at a high level early on, whereas the current group did not.

Would love to see Babers and staff turn us into a pipeline of consistent DE talent, like what we see at Missouri.

 

[Trueblue25]

Wish we had the depth to have kept Slayton at End

 

[cusefan88]

The staff is extremely high on Coleman...

 

[elimunelson]

Sharpe contributed more early, but got injured repeatedly his first three years; had a great senior year. You are spot on with LaCasse, he had the speed / athleticism, but had to "grow" into his frame.

I like Black and Coleman, too. The question is, can we generate consistent upfield pass rush from this group and have them make plays in the backfield, and I think that remains to be seen.

LaCasse went to my highschool (many years later albeit) and he was an incredible runner. I think won the state 100. I always wondered if he would have been a good H back or Middle Linebacker vs speed rusher. Certainly he was on the worst of the worst SU teams but who knows.

 

[PhatOrange]

Which is why I compared them to Robinson / Welsh. Guys who were difference makers as upperclassmen, but maybe not amongst the best DEs we've ever had.

Don't get me wrong, I love these guys, and I'm excited about their potential [Coleman and Black in particular]. I just don't take for granted that they will eventually be great pass rushers. Time will tell.

Would love to see Babers and staff turn us into a pipeline of consistent DE talent, like what we see at Missouri.

I think Black/Coleman are further ahead than pretty much any defensive end since Freeney. Not all of them (Ron Thompson) but most. Chandler, Josh Thomas, Maronivich, Sharpe, These two have shown as much or more at the same age than any of them.

Chandler Jones didn’t even play until his Sophomore year and finished with 10 career sacks. Josh Thomas 9. Both had a lot of tackles but did nothing until their sophomore years. Thomas played as a true frosh but broke his foot.

Sharpe played in 10 games as a true frosh and had 6 tackles, 3.5 TFL, 3.5 sacks.. Finished his career with 14.5 sacks (7 of them as a senior). thats good. But never had more than 20 tackles until his senior year either (39).

As true freshman (playing when they shouldn't be)
-Coleman had 29 tackles 1 sack
-Black had 21 tackles and 1.5 sacks

I would expect their production to take off next season.

 

[RF2044]

I think Black/Coleman are further ahead than pretty much any defensive end since Freeney. Not all of them (Ron Thompson) but most. Chandler, Josh Thomas, Maronivich, Sharpe, These two have shown as much or more at the same age than any of them.

Chandler Jones didn’t even play until his Sophomore year and finished with 10 career sacks. Josh Thomas 9. Both had a lot of tackles but did nothing until their sophomore years. Thomas played as a true frosh but broke his foot.

Sharpe played in 10 games as a true frosh and had 6 tackles, 3.5 TFL, 3.5 sacks.. Finished his career with 14.5 sacks (7 of them as a senior). Decent. But never had more than 20 tackles until his senior year either (39).

As true freshman (playing when they shouldn't be)
-Coleman had 29 tackles 1 sack
-Black had 21 tackles and 1.5 sacks

But again, the question in the OP is about pass rush--not the ability hold up against the run, or whether they were had the physical tools to contribute early.

And those sack totals fit my view of them, and explain why I'm not expecting either of them to emerge as the next Ron Thompson, let alone Freeney.

 

[PhatOrange]

But again, the question is about pass rush--not the ability hold up against the run.

And those sack totals fit my view of them, and explain why I'm not expecting either of them to emerge as the next Ron Thompson, let alone Freeney.

who's ever had good sack numbers at Syracuse?

I think why they could emerge is because they have very good speed. need to learn how to get explosive and with technique use that speed to their pass rush advantage. These two are much faster than any defensive ends we've had in a long time and they're 260 lbs.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

This plays into a bigger series of questions.

How much better will the current young players get?

Can the next class be better immediately? How much better can they get?

I think they'll get a lot better, and hopefully next season we can be very selective of how many freshmen see the field. Wouldn't be surprised to see freshman in the secondary, at running back, and receiver, but outside of that we'd really benefit from not pressing so many guys into action immediately. That'll give guys a chance to actually "get better" before they get on the field.

We're in a really ugly cycle between roster issues, changing coaches, and lack of depth. We keep having to fill in the roster with freshmen that can really benefit from some developmental time. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is hurting us as a program. At a certain point we need to bite the bullet on it and think longer term.

 

[PhatOrange]

Syracuse career defensive leaders:

2 defensive ends out of 12 ? Freeney and LaCasse ? The rest I think were linebackers and defensive tackles

Syracuse University Athletics - DEFENSIVE INDIVIDUAL CAREER LEADERS

 

[SoBristol]

So much depends on what Dino Babers & staff can accomplish with a DE juco and a DE grad transfer to supplement Coleman & Nelson. I like our young DEs, but the position needs some help while the kids develop.

 

[Alsacs]

Sharpe made plays that won us games. He also made a lot of plays in Doug Marrone's first game against Minnesota.

His problem was he got hurt and it slowed down his motor. We need edge pass rush from the DEs. Getting sacks isn't always necessary but they need to crumble the pocket and just force the QB to step up. We didn't pressure this year.

 

[Chip]

I believe Black and Coleman are potentially every bit as good as any defensive ends we've had in a looong time.

They definitely have the frame for it. I think they're both going to be really good, and we've got others to back them up. I'll be shocked if it's not a position of strength in a couple years, maybe even by the end of next year. They get their first offseason in the weight room, plenty of opportunity in front of them. Easy to be bullish on this position.

No DE should be starting as a true freshman. Play in situations, sure. But not starting and playing every down. These two kids were thrown right in the deep end and handled it pretty well. They'll be better for it.

 

[PhatOrange]

Sharpe made plays that won us games. He also made a lot of plays in Doug Marrone's first game against Minnesota.

His problem was he got hurt and it slowed down his motor. We need edge pass rush from the DEs. Getting sacks isn't always necessary but they need to crumble the pocket and just force the QB to step up. We didn't pressure this year.

that's a good point. dont necessarily need sacks, but they need to crumble the pocket and get the QB hurried, stepping up and uncomfortable.

 

[RF2044]

Syracuse career defensive leaders:

2 defensive ends out of 12 ? Freeney and LaCasse ? The rest I think were linebackers and defensive tackles

Syracuse University Athletics - DEFENSIVE INDIVIDUAL CAREER LEADERS

2? The top THREE guys on the list were defensive ends, no? I count five on that list.

Regardless, so what? The OP question wasn't about how these guys stack up against other frosh DEs we've had, it was about whether these guys have the chops to generate a more consistent pass rush or not.

You can't compare the stats of Sharpe [per your post above] who was a part time player and injured for significant portions of his first three years to Coleman, who started, and conclude that Coleman is "better" on the basis of stats alone. Coleman played a lot more.

What I do know is that it was readily obvious that players like Freeney and Sharpe had innate pass rushing skills, even when they were true freshman and not physically optimized to compete at the collegiate level. I didn't get that same impression from Coleman / Black. I see them more in the mold of other DEs we've had who've been very productive, but maybe not difference making pass rushers.

Would love to be wrong, and to see both of those guys go gangbusters and make it to the next level.

 

[SoBristol]

...

We're in a really ugly cycle between roster issues, changing coaches, and lack of depth. We keep having to fill in the roster with freshmen that can really benefit from some developmental time. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is hurting us as a program. At a certain point we need to bite the bullet on it and think longer term.

That was a fair description of where the team was, entering 2016. It should be dramatically different in 2017, with the number of returning players we have on defense; and with all starters returning in the OL plus 4 promising linemen coming off their red-shirt year.
If any freshmen push into the 2017 two deep, they will have to beat out players who have seen the field or have already red-shirted. Might happen, but only at a handful of spots -- RB, outside receiver, TE, maybe one DB spot.
And, if a program is recruiting well, it ought to land a handful of prospects good enough to play early.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I think they'll get a lot better, and hopefully next season we can be very selective of how many freshmen see the field. Wouldn't be surprised to see freshman in the secondary, at running back, and receiver, but outside of that we'd really benefit from not pressing so many guys into action immediately. That'll give guys a chance to actually "get better" before they get on the field.

We're in a really ugly cycle between roster issues, changing coaches, and lack of depth. We keep having to fill in the roster with freshmen that can really benefit from some developmental time. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is hurting us as a program. At a certain point we need to bite the bullet on it and think longer term.

Because we have so little depth right now, I fear the cycle of perpetual savior via youth will continue indefinitely. However, you're right - guys will continue to develop as long as they stick around. Which is why going JUCO is a bad idea unless there aren't enough players at a certain position.

 

[RF2044]

That was a fair description of where the team was, entering 2016. It should be dramatically different in 2017, with the number of returning players we have on defense; and with all starters returning in the OL plus 4 promising linemen coming off their red-shirt year.
If any freshmen push into the 2017 two deep, they will have to beat out players who have seen the field or have already red-shirted. Might happen, but only at a handful of spots -- RB, outside receiver, TE, maybe one DB spot.
And, if a program is recruiting well, it ought to land a handful of prospects good enough to play early.

Very good point--most of the two-deep was comprised of non-seniors. We shouldn't have too many "holes" to fill, and it stands to reason that we wouldn't have to rush as many true frosh onto the field just to have sufficient depth.

I agree with OiG's post above--there will be exceptions here and there, but the vast majority of players we recruit would benefit from having a redshirt year. Have to get to the point where we're doing that for nearly all of every recruiting class, at which point it becomes a sustainable thing.

 

[TheCusian]

I don't think you can judge what Black and Coleman can be or will be based on this season. Not a lot of P5 DE's play as true freshmen, much less start and play tons of minutes. This year, with a full offseason to train - and more bodies available to rotate - I'd bet we can judge a bit better.