Would you be surprised if we lose go Chaminade?

[Cusefan0307]

No, we were never close vs. Gonzaga.

We cut it to 6 in the second half and after a Gonzaga missed shot Chris Bell watched a Gonzaga player pick the ball off the floor and kick it out to an open shooter for a 3.

 

[tptcuse]

When we had “one of the best backcourts in the country and easily the best one in the ACC”.

I won't back away that I thought that was the case. But I also thought we needed more scoring---and shooting in particular. The problem for me is I had no idea the depth of JJ's shooting woes. And the Benny stuff is mind boggling. At the very least, I thought he would be gracious and happy to be playing for Red.

 

[jncuse]

They shouldn't be expected to lose, but it would not be stunning either. Majors lose vs Chaminade about once every 4 years since 2003.

I didn't realize that Chaminade has actually won 8 games in the history of Maui. Don't know how good Chaminade is this year (or bad) compared to prior years which would be a big factor in these games as well.

I would imagine some of these games were in the final consolation game, and teams that lost the first two went out before the final game and did not take it as seriously as they should.

1984	Davidson	77-62
1991	Providence	111-108
1992	Stanford	71-63 (2OT)
2003	Villanova	52-49
2007	Princeton	74-70
2010	Oklahoma	68-64
2012	Texas	86-73
2017	Cal	96-72

I also went and looked at the ending KP rating of these schools, of the teams where data is available, Only one of the losing teams ended up being a total dud.
2003 Villanova - #53
2007 Princeton - #108
2010 Oklahoma - #144
2012 Texas - #94
2017 Cal - #244
2023 Syracuse - #127**
** That of course is an early rating that can fluctuate a lot.

The complete history of Chaminade at the Maui Invitational

Here is the complete history of the Silverswords' tournament runs as well as a look at some of the top college basketball teams that DII Chaminade faced on an annual basis at the Maui Invitational.

www.ncaa.com

 

[Cuse181]

curious - why do you think he’s earned a pass? What cred has he built up? If we go 9-22 the athletic department cannot afford the financial fallout.

He’d get a pass for that record if Syracuse won 3 games last year, he should at the very least be .500 again this year.

 

[kingtidge]

curious - why do you think he’s earned a pass? What cred has he built up? If we go 9-22 the athletic department cannot afford the financial fallout.

Because we hired him and he's in year 1.

First year is a writeoff and he should get a full recruiting cycle.

If he's single-digit wins in year 2, ok time for some serious talk...

That said, look how long it took us to drop Babers. He certainly didn't earn 8 years.

 

[FrancoPizza]

They shouldn't be expected to lose, but it would not be stunning either. Majors lose vs Chaminade about once every 4 years since 2003.

I didn't realize that Chaminade has actually won 8 games in the history of Maui. Don't know how good Chaminade is this year (or bad) compared to prior years. I would imagine some of these games were in the final consolation game, and teams that lost the first two went out before the final game and did not take it as seriously as they should.

1984	Davidson	77-62
1991	Providence	111-108
1992	Stanford	71-63 (2OT)
2003	Villanova	52-49
2007	Princeton	74-70
2010	Oklahoma	68-64
2012	Texas	86-73
2017	Cal	96-72

I also went and looked at the ending KP rating of these schools, of the teams where data is available, Only one of the losing teams ended up being a total dud.
2003 Villanova - #53
2007 Princeton - #108
2010 Oklahoma - #144
2012 Texas - #94
2017 Cal - #244
2023 Syracuse - #127**
** That of course is an early rating that can fluctuate a lot.

The complete history of Chaminade at the Maui Invitational

Here is the complete history of the Silverswords' tournament runs as well as a look at some of the top college basketball teams that DII Chaminade faced on an annual basis at the Maui Invitational.

www.ncaa.com

I would say they were all duds outside of Villanova. Those other KP ratings scream NIT or worse.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Until the end of both games, SU amazingly managed to stay withing striking distance in the 2nd half while failing in many aspects of the game.
vs Zags, they got it down to 8, then 7, then 6 before the wheels came off. Unfortunately SU didn't have it in them to make the little run needed at that point to get the lead and maybe a W.
Not a F4 Zags team and not impressed by TN, but rationalize that SU remained in these games until late.

If Red can get this group to play as a team and they start hitting shots, there could be a rising trajectory for where they go this season.
Red has an opportunity to prove that he can coach, and this team to prove they have character.
If Red doesn't fix what needs fixing to get the team to their potential and stop the Me Ball, the honeymoon will be very short (appears over already for some fans!).

I'm withholding judgment until January. That will be 13 games, plus 2 exhibitions, plus a month of pre-season practices. That's 3 months of coaching. If we still don't see any offensive structure, and we still aren't passing the ball to each other, then I'll be really concerned that Red is up to the job.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Because we hired him and he's in year 1.

First year is a writeoff and he should get a full recruiting cycle.

If he's single-digit wins in year 2, ok time for some serious talk...

That said, look how long it took us to drop Babers. He certainly didn't earn 8 years.

Single digit wins 2 years in a row and he's gone.
Get a real coach if Red does that poorly.

 

[Trueblue25]

In my opinion, this tournament was house money.

We were never going to beat Tennessee or Gonzaga.

We actually were competitive and had a chance to beat Tennessee but fell apart. We’re a young team with a new coach.

You throw everything at the wall this tournament and see what sticks, and what doesnt.

This was a fairly inconsequential information gathering exercise. We have plenty Red knows he’ll have to work on back stateside.

Those of you already claiming the sky’s falling need to step back and think about what your expectations were originally heading into the tournament.

I see no real cause for concern right now other than Benny Williams.

 

[DoctahLexus]

12 pts isn't much considering it was 6 pts with just over 8 minutes left. It's not like it was 20 and we artificially brought it down to 12. we played awful both games and yet were in each of them well into the second half.

Exactly. It is rough right now especially with this bs Benny situation but we hung around with two top of the top teams for a decent amount of time. It is not totally off the rails yet. Tennessee just took Purdue to the wire last night. Think a lot of the especially bad things we saw will improve and this team could look entirely different against more evenly matched competition. Just can't have everyone losing their heads. On the team that is. Board can go crazy all it wants.

 

[Tony DeFranco]

Gonna be hard for us to beat any team in the top 25 - we really have zero shooting - and we have no center - I would rather see Girard at Center over McCloud - I’ve seen Hima play - he is 5x better than McCloud - Bell seems to be the odd factor - if he plays well which will be rare we can win those games but yesterday - holy moly was he bad - Taylor doesn’t bring much to the table - he’s about one step too slow - and his shooting is nothing special either - Starling helps because it at least gives us two guys that can get to the rim - overall through I would say McCloud needs to be perma benched and start from there - but we can win a bunch of games this year - just not agains top 25 teams

 

[two3zone]

Gonna be hard for us to beat any team in the top 25 - we really have zero shooting - and we have no center - I would rather see Girard at Center over McCloud - I’ve seen Hima play - he is 5x better than McCloud - Bell seems to be the odd factor - if he plays well which will be rare we can win those games but yesterday - holy moly was he bad - Taylor doesn’t bring much to the table - he’s about one step too slow - and his shooting is nothing special either - Starling helps because it at least gives us two guys that can get to the rim - overall through I would say McCloud needs to be perma benched and start from there - but we can win a bunch of games this year - just not agains top 25 teams

We start 4 guys who at best are 6th-8th men on the bench at good schools.

Where did you see Hima play where he has more talent than Mcleod, not that the standard is very high but, I’ve never seen him play and thought he should play more.

 

[jncuse]

I don't quite getting overly angry at these 2 games or Red.
I viewed Tennessee as a success, based on the specific expectations I had set pre-game. Being within 8 points with 5 minutes to go, which we achieved. Gonzaga was a bit of a mess but again they are a likely a top 15-20 team by season's end and have more continuity. Tennessee excels in making teams looking bad offensively - its their system.

This is where our program was left at by JB. We were #118 last year in KP. Red inherited a bad situation - we are not good and we should not expect to look that good with top 10/15 schools early on.

We have not been a good program for a while. Some of you deluded yourself by overstating the relevance of some wins March as they pertain to program health. The regular season, the constant bubble teams, that tells you much more of where we are at as a program and where we were headed than a few games in March.

 

[kingtidge]

Single digit wins 2 years in a row and he's gone.
Get a real coach if Red does that poorly.

Don't disagree, but the other poster was asking why he gets a pass on year 1...

 

[NineOneSeven]

Yes.

Cool let’s do it!

 

[jncuse]

I would say they were all duds outside of Villanova. Those other KP ratings scream NIT or worse.

I was using duds in the context of a team being way worse than where we are now. And the only was that Cal team.

If we are going to use your definition (which isn't wrong either), then we are a dud as well.

The point is 4 teams at around our level (or better) have lost to Chaminade in the last 20 years.

 

[gmoney44]

I get it but I am at the stage of life where I refuse to be miserable over my favorite sports teams even though they all stink right now.

I’m with you on that. There was a time in my younger days were I lived and died with the football and basketball teams but somwhere along the line that stopped. Probably out of self preservation because there would be far more dying than living lately.

 

[MSOrange]

To go back to the original question of the thread - We're not going to lose to Chaminade. And I wasn't very high on this team to begin with. I didn't pick them to make the NCAA in the Iggy's. But let's not be ridiculous.

 

[jncuse]

Money Line
Syracuse -10000 (implies 1% chance to lose)
Chaminade +1000 (implies about 9% chance to win).

Vegas plays it safe on these low chance wins, which is why there is always a big gap -- based on those lines Chaminade's chances of winning probably at somewhere around 3%-4%.

 

[MikeSU02]

No.
I was thinking in terms of ‘historically good’ teams, but even in the context of the current NCAA, no. Didn’t see a single player on that squad that impressed me.

Here is how it’s perceived outside of our bubble: our guys in the nba currently vs Gonzaga:

2023-24 current salary totals: $30M to over $100M

Career earnings so far with guys in the nba: $116M to $322M

Btw, Chet is going to be signing a monster deal when he comes due.

We have a lot of work to do.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Here is how it’s perceived outside of our bubble: our guys in the nba currently vs Gonzaga:

2023-24 current salary totals: $30M to over $100M

Career earnings so far with guys in the nba: $116M to $322M

Btw, Chet is going to be signing a monster deal when he comes due.

We have a lot of work to do.

Still, you misunderstand me. I was not speaking of Gonzaga as a ‘program.’ Just about this year’s team. This Gonzaga team is not great. I didn’t see any impressive players. A quick survey of projected draft picks showed no one from Gonzaga. That is all.

 

[capeorange]

When we had “one of the best backcourts in the country and easily the best one in the ACC”.

Possible over statement of the year.

 

[baggerbob]

I don't quite getting overly angry at these 2 games or Red.
I viewed Tennessee as a success, based on the specific expectations I had set pre-game. Being within 8 points with 5 minutes to go, which we achieved. Gonzaga was a bit of a mess but again they are a likely a top 15-20 team by season's end and have more continuity. Tennessee excels in making teams looking bad offensively - its their system.

This is where our program was left at by JB. We were #118 last year in KP. Red inherited a bad situation - we are not good and we should not expect to look that good with top 10/15 schools early on.

We have not been a good program for a while. Some of you deluded yourself by overstating the relevance of some wins March as they pertain to program health. The regular season, the constant bubble teams, that tells you much more of where we are at as a program and where we were headed than a few games in March.

Most of the people complaining now are the same people who said JB had the right to retire when he wanted.
The last 8 years have been terrible and JB should have been retired at least 5 years ago.
The University let JB stay and he damaged what was a great program and turned it into a bad program.
It's going to take time to bring the program back, and it isn't going to happen this year.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Uhh they were KenPom top 10 teams and will be all year. This sounds like old man on the porch yelling at cloud. I’m not even high on us, but if you don’t think this Maui field is loaded you won’t think anyone is good all year.

Where did I suggest the Maui field wasn’t “loaded?” I did suggest that the state of the NCAA isn’t what it used to be. So, teams ranked in the top 15 are ranked in context. Kenpom is in context versus the current year, is it not?

I‘ll try to make this clearer. We looked inept vs teams with no ‘great‘ players—meaning these were not star-laden, historically-great teams. To be ‘humiliated‘ by them is, to me, more inexcusable than it would have been had we been playing great teams.

I‘ll put it another way, with hyperbole/exaggeration to emphasize the point: Let’s say we could rank teams historically on a 100 point scale. The 96 Kentucky team with umpteen NBA players on it, Tark’s best UNLV team, Ewing’s Georgetown, PhiSlammaJamma, UConn in the 90s, some Duke squads… i‘d rank them in the 90+ point range. This year’s Tennessee and Gonzaga? They don’t rank vey high. They can be #7 and #11(?) in the country now, but that doesn’t make them great teams. Unless you started watching ball this year.

So, again, to put this into the simplest terms—you look incompetently bad against a “powerhouse,” maybe that’s justified. You look incompetent against solid but talentless teams in 2023, that’s inexcusable. Not much justification for not being, at least, ‘solid’ whether you have great talent or not. We weren’t being dominated by superior athletes.

 

[capeorange]

Most of the people complaining now are the same people who said JB had the right to retire when he wanted.
The last 8 years have been terrible and JB should have been retired at least 5 years ago.
The University let JB stay and he damaged what was a great program and turned it into a bad program.
It's going to take time to bring the program back, and it isn't going to happen this year.

I'm one who thought that JB earned the right to coach his sons. However, I was vocal about not hiring from within. I will support Red as long as he shows progress.

Edit-- I will also complain when he doesn't fix fundamental problems like inbounding.