3 Arguments for Shafer

[Orijinal]

In all the discussion surrounding coach Shafer's future at Syracuse, these 3 points have gotten very little mention and I think are very relevant to the discussion and are supremely important to consider

1. Syracuse is playing in the toughest league it has ever played in, top to bottom. Yes, Syracuse was in a league with Miami and Va Tech at one point, but again I am speaking of a league from top to bottom. How would other coaches of Syracuse's past have faired here, especially in the first 3 years? How would Marrone have faired at this point? Some would argue that one of the reasons Marrone left for Buffalo so soon is because he had to strike while the iron was hot. Did he know he might not be such a hot commodity after a few years in the ACC?

2. Shafer is loyal to Syracuse. That certainly should carry a lot more weight in the conversation than it does now. His family is firmly embedded in CNY. His son attends and plays ball at Ithaca. Daughter has grown up here the last 7 years. You can get a solid coach, or even a great one, next time it's time to hire, but it makes no difference if the coach is not loyal (hello Doug Marrone). Syracuse has someone in Shafer who will not look to jump to the "next best thing" should the wins begin to come.

3. The catch 22 situation. Everyone agrees a program needs recruits to win, but a program usually needs to win to get recruits. Syracuse is not winning right now and still will bring in 2 solid classes in this coming cycle and last cycle. Usually coaches who are good recruiters do not make great game day coaches, and vice versa. Hard to get a coach who excels at both. HOWEVER, a coach who can consistently bring in good classes will eventually look good as a gameday coach (hello Dabo Swinney). Syracuse is getting the component everyone says you need to have to eventually find wins (recruits). Now really may not be the time to cut ties.

 

[Briancuse]

In all the discussion surrounding coach Shafer's future at Syracuse, these 3 points have gotten very little mention and I think are very relevant to the discussion and are supremely important to consider

1. Syracuse is playing in the toughest league it has ever played in, top to bottom. Yes, Syracuse was in a league with Miami and Va Tech at one point, but again I am speaking of a league from top to bottom. How would other coaches of Syracuse's past have faired here, especially in the first 3 years? How would Marrone have faired at this point? Some would argue that one of the reasons Marrone left for Buffalo so soon is because he had to strike while the iron was hot. Did he know he might not be such a hot commodity after a few years in the ACC?

2. Shafer is loyal to Syracuse. That certainly should carry a lot more weight in the conversation than it does now. His family is firmly embedded in CNY. His son attends and plays ball at Ithaca. Daughter has grown up here the last 7 years. You can get a solid coach, or even a great one, next time it's time to hire, but it makes no difference if the coach is not loyal (hello Doug Marrone). Syracuse has someone in Shafer who will look to jump to the "next best thing" should the wins begin to come.

3. The catch 22 situation. Everyone agrees a program needs recruits to win, but a program usually needs to win to get recruits. Syracuse is not winning right now and still will bring in 2 solid classes in this coming cycle and last cycle. Usually coaches who are good recruiters do not make great game day coaches, and vice versa. Hard to get a coach who excels at both. HOWEVER, a coach who can consistently bring in good classes will eventually look good as a gameday coach (hello Dabo Swinney). Syracuse is getting the component everyone says you need to have to eventually find wins (recruits). Now really may not be the time to cut ties.

We played in a much tougher league when Miami and Va Tech were on top, and Bc, Pitt, Wv were all pretty darn good. Clemson is really good, but other than that, this league isn't all that tough.

 

[TheCusian]

We played in a much tougher league when Miami and Va Tech were on top, and Bc, Pitt, Wv were all pretty darn good. Clemson is really good, but other than that, this league isn't all that tough.

Not really.

Miami at their best was #1 and really really good.

But FSU/Clemson > Miami/VaTech

Plus we play Pitt, BC annually still and I'm not sure they were any better or any worse on average that they are now.

Wake/NC State > Rutgers/Temple

Louisville = WVU

But then there is the other division with GTech, VaTech, Miami, Duke, UVa and UNC that we get to see once a year.

 

[Alsacs]

Not really.

Miami at their best was #1 and really really good.

But FSU/Clemson > Miami/VaTech

Plus we play Pitt, BC annually still and I'm not sure they were any better or any worse on average that they are now.

Wake/NC State > Rutgers/Temple

Louisville = WVU

But then there is the other division with GTech, VaTech, Miami, Duke, UVa and UNC that we get to see once a year.

2001 we played #1 Miami, #5 Virginia Tech, #8 Tennessee, #10 Georgia Tech, #25 Boston College
2002 we played #1 Miami #8 Virginia Tech #25 Auburn along w/ North Carolina and BYU.
2003 we played #4 Virginia Tech, #14 Miami, #25 Boston College along w/ at North Carolina and Louisville
2004 we played #8 Florida State, #12 Virginia, #15 West Virginia, #17 Boston College, #24 Purdue
2005 we played #5 Notre Dame, #6 Florida State, #17 Louisville #24 Virginia
2006 we played #4 West Virginia, #14 Iowa, #15 Rutgers
You are correct on this one. I can go on. Our schedule is not any tougher now. We just have the top 2 ACC teams in our division.

 

[Crusty]

In all the discussion surrounding coach Shafer's future at Syracuse, these 3 points have gotten very little mention and I think are very relevant to the discussion and are supremely important to consider

1. Syracuse is playing in the toughest league it has ever played in, top to bottom. Yes, Syracuse was in a league with Miami and Va Tech at one point, but again I am speaking of a league from top to bottom. How would other coaches of Syracuse's past have faired here, especially in the first 3 years? How would Marrone have faired at this point? Some would argue that one of the reasons Marrone left for Buffalo so soon is because he had to strike while the iron was hot. Did he know he might not be such a hot commodity after a few years in the ACC?

2. Shafer is loyal to Syracuse. That certainly should carry a lot more weight in the conversation than it does now. His family is firmly embedded in CNY. His son attends and plays ball at Ithaca. Daughter has grown up here the last 7 years. You can get a solid coach, or even a great one, next time it's time to hire, but it makes no difference if the coach is not loyal (hello Doug Marrone). Syracuse has someone in Shafer who will look to jump to the "next best thing" should the wins begin to come.

3. The catch 22 situation. Everyone agrees a program needs recruits to win, but a program usually needs to win to get recruits. Syracuse is not winning right now and still will bring in 2 solid classes in this coming cycle and last cycle. Usually coaches who are good recruiters do not make great game day coaches, and vice versa. Hard to get a coach who excels at both. HOWEVER, a coach who can consistently bring in good classes will eventually look good as a gameday coach (hello Dabo Swinney). Syracuse is getting the component everyone says you need to have to eventually find wins (recruits). Now really may not be the time to cut ties.

If it were not for Shafer's considerable character and likeability we would want his head on a pitchfork by now.
For me he passes that all important test - would I want my son to play for him? He is easy to root for and to be proud of on many levels.

This is why this is such a gut wrenching time as many/most of us desperately want him to succeed.

At the end of the day however, the job requires winning games and that will ultimately determine his fate.
Go Shafer beat Louisville.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If it were not for Shafer's considerable character and likeability we would want his head on a pitchfork by now.
For me he passes that all important test - would I want my son to play for him? He is easy to root for and to be proud of on many levels.

This is why this is such a gut wrenching time as many/most of us desperately want him to succeed.

At the end of the day however, the job requires winning games and that will ultimately determine his fate.
Go Shafer beat Louisville.

Spot on.

 

[Scooch]

If it were not for Shafer's considerable character and likeability we would want his head on a pitchfork by now.
For me he passes that all important test - would I want my son to play for him? He is easy to root for and to be proud of on many levels.

This is why this is such a gut wrenching time as many/most of us desperately want him to succeed.

At the end of the day however, the job requires winning games and that will ultimately determine his fate.
Go Shafer beat Louisville.

Yep, all of this.

 

[skurey]

1. He's
2. Not
3. GRob

 

[NKR1978]

1. He's
2. Not
3. GRob

Is he? Good chance both end up with 6 combined wins in years 2 and 3.

I just can't stop questioning whether the rest of the ACC fears him as a coach. He's like the Clemson or BC hoops coaches. Our position is not threatened by them.

Hope I'm wrong though. Would love to eat crow.

 

[TheCusian]

Is he? Good chance both end up with 6 combined wins in years 2 and 3. I just can't stop questioning whether the rest of the ACC fears him as a coach. He's like the Clemson or BC hoops coaches. Our position is not threatened by them. Hope I'm wrong though. Would love to eat crow.

Way to leave off year 1:

7-6 vs 1-10.

 

[Bayside44]

In all the discussion surrounding coach Shafer's future at Syracuse, these 3 points have gotten very little mention and I think are very relevant to the discussion and are supremely important to consider

1. Syracuse is playing in the toughest league it has ever played in, top to bottom. Yes, Syracuse was in a league with Miami and Va Tech at one point, but again I am speaking of a league from top to bottom. How would other coaches of Syracuse's past have faired here, especially in the first 3 years? How would Marrone have faired at this point? Some would argue that one of the reasons Marrone left for Buffalo so soon is because he had to strike while the iron was hot. Did he know he might not be such a hot commodity after a few years in the ACC?

2. Shafer is loyal to Syracuse. That certainly should carry a lot more weight in the conversation than it does now. His family is firmly embedded in CNY. His son attends and plays ball at Ithaca. Daughter has grown up here the last 7 years. You can get a solid coach, or even a great one, next time it's time to hire, but it makes no difference if the coach is not loyal (hello Doug Marrone). Syracuse has someone in Shafer who will look to jump to the "next best thing" should the wins begin to come.

3. The catch 22 situation. Everyone agrees a program needs recruits to win, but a program usually needs to win to get recruits. Syracuse is not winning right now and still will bring in 2 solid classes in this coming cycle and last cycle. Usually coaches who are good recruiters do not make great game day coaches, and vice versa. Hard to get a coach who excels at both. HOWEVER, a coach who can consistently bring in good classes will eventually look good as a gameday coach (hello Dabo Swinney). Syracuse is getting the component everyone says you need to have to eventually find wins (recruits). Now really may not be the time to cut ties.

On point one we get that but the issue is not being outgunned by FSU and Clemson but making bonehead in-game decisions.

He should be loyal to Syracuse - it's the only place giving him a P5 HC gig.

I give them a lot of credit for finding Dungey - but - we are in the ACC and our facilities are leaps and bounds better than they were under Marrone (I got a tour in 10 and one in 15 and it's sooooooooooo much better). End of the day though - going back to your point one - considering the talent level in the conference we still need a guy who can outscheme the guy on the other sideline.

 

[chakka3421]

There are so many Shafer threads but here is my counter to your reasons (posted in UL game is huge). I don't have so much of an opinion to keep or fire Shafer versus an observation.

When you watch the high octane offensive teams they never put on the brakes. Watching the Bowling Green game the other night reminded me of this. At the end of the half BG calls time outs to get the ball back with over 2 minutes left when Ohio had the ball. They then throw 2 long passes each being broken up for in-completes and if I recall they throw another incomplete for a 3 and out. Ohio gets the ball back with about 2 minutes left. I thought it was kind of strange they didn't even run a running play to run down the clock a little bit but I've been programmed to think this way watching SU play for a long time.

So BG's mindset it to go all out all the time to get TDs as they didn't play "not to lose" at end of half but went all out with the kind of abandon we had with playing LSU. I don't mean our coaches should play with reckless abandon but it's a mindset when you watch Bowling Green and other high octane teams like Baylor & Oregon of a year or two ago. All BG wanted to do is score TDs fast and furious.

I wish Shafer & Lester did this ALL THE TIME! I'm not sure if it's the style of play but more of a mindset. I just haven't seen it since the LSU game. I think that's the mindset we want for a competent SU coaching staff to take advantage of its greatest asset - the Dome environment.

The question I have in my mind can Lester & Shafer be the guys who can take advantage of the Dome environment and deliver a high octane offense? Or do we have a coach that calls a time out cause he thinks his offense is "gassed" before the end of a half at FSU. For me this is the crux of the issue regarding Shafer & Lester long term...

 

[FAL]

If it were not for Shafer's considerable character and likeability we would want his head on a pitchfork by now.
For me he passes that all important test - would I want my son to play for him? He is easy to root for and to be proud of on many levels.

This is why this is such a gut wrenching time as many/most of us desperately want him to succeed.

At the end of the day however, the job requires winning games and that will ultimately determine his fate.
Go Shafer beat Louisville.

Jeezus, Crusty! That's right up there with "Win one for the Gipper."!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

There are so many Shafer threads but here is my counter to your reasons (posted in UL game is huge). I don't have so much of an opinion to keep or fire Shafer versus an observation.

When you watch the high octane offensive teams they never put on the brakes. Watching the Bowling Green game the other night reminded me of this. At the end of the half BG calls time outs to get the ball back with over 2 minutes left when Ohio had the ball. They then throw 2 long passes each being broken up for in-completes and if I recall they throw another incomplete for a 3 and out. Ohio gets the ball back with about 2 minutes left. I thought it was kind of strange they didn't even run a running play to run down the clock a little bit but I've been programmed to think this way watching SU play for a long time.

So BG's mindset it to go all out all the time to get TDs as they didn't play "not to lose" at end of half but went all out with the kind of abandon we had with playing LSU. I don't mean our coaches should play with reckless abandon but it's a mindset when you watch Bowling Green and other high octane teams like Baylor & Oregon of a year or two ago. All BG wanted to do is score TDs fast and furious.

I wish Shafer & Lester did this ALL THE TIME! I'm not sure if it's the style of play but more of a mindset. I just haven't seen it since the LSU game. I think that's the mindset we want for a competent SU coaching staff to take advantage of its greatest asset - the Dome environment.

The question I have in my mind can Lester & Shafer be the guys who can take advantage of the Dome environment and deliver a high octane offense? Or do we have a coach that calls a time out cause he thinks his offense is "gassed" before the end of a half at FSU. For me this is the crux of the issue regarding Shafer & Lester long term...

Nailed it. I like this post so hard.

 

[Bayside44]

Nailed it. I like this post so hard.

Chip?

 

[tbonezone]

some of his decisions frankly are head scratchers even to a layman and cost us points. this needs to be addressed.

 

[chakka3421]

Nailed it. I like this post so hard.

You know what really bothers me. We have seen so many glimpses with Dungey where we can score really quickly but then we go conservative where Lester & Shafer start calling plays that stalls the offense especially multiple run plays when the passing game is working. Because what - we have to establish the run? That's not what these high octane offenses do. It's like they want to score a TD on EVERY play.

I know I'm over simplifying things but that's my take. I go back to that time out at FSU before the half its just so illogical to me. The coach from BG, Baylor etc wouldn't have called a time out until the 3rd down if they didn't score by then. You just know that watching those teams play. Nuff said.

 

[Alsacs]

You know what really bothers me. We have seen so many glimpses with Dungey where we can score really quickly but then we go conservative where Lester & Shafer start calling plays that stalls the offense especially multiple run plays when the passing game is working. Because what - we have to establish the run? That's not what these high octane offenses do. It's like they want to score a TD on EVERY play.

I know I'm over simplifying things but that's my take. I go back to that time out at FSU before the half its just so illogical to me. The coach from BG, Baylor etc wouldn't have called a time out until the 3rd down if they didn't score by then. You just know that watching those teams play. Nuff said.

Again you are saying what frustrates the heck out of me about SS. Nice guy, good defensive coordinator but if Doug Marrone never left no P5 school was going to hire Scott Shafer as their HC. He hit the freaking lottery and has had the HC job for 3 years but still hasn't learned these game situation mistakes.

I mean if the SU Administration didn't screw DM on his contract and the IPF who the heck knows how these past 3 years would have been. However, SS has not to outcoached the opposition and we are praying for him to get it. Keeping him as HC depresses me because of the chilling effect it will have on the next few years of SU football.

Apathy will be a lot higher and will be praying for mediocrity next year which is so damn frustrating. I want optimism I want to look forward games right now it is dang frustrating watching Rinse, Repeat, Wash.

 

[TheCusian]

Again you are saying what frustrates the heck out of me about SS. Nice guy, good defensive coordinator but if Doug Marrone never left no P5 school was going to hire Scott Shafer as their HC. He hit the freaking lottery and has had the HC job for 3 years but still hasn't learned these game situation mistakes. I mean if the SU Administration didn't screw DM on his contract and the IPF who the heck knows how these past 3 years would have been. However, SS has not to outcoached the opposition and we are praying for him to get it. Keeping him as HC depresses me because of the chilling effect it will have on the next few years of SU football. Apathy will be a lot higher and will be praying for mediocrity next year which is so damn frustrating. I want optimism I want to look forward games right now it is dang frustrating watching Rinse, Repeat, Wash.

You keep saying he hit the lottery like it wasn't something he earned. We all saw how his defense carried Marrone until 2012. The stats bear that out.

He might not be a HC, but if you're buying the Marrone years as a success and you want to continue that success - Shafer is the guy you tab. Not Hackett.

It's not some crazy jump to promote him given his track record as DC and the relative success of the program up to that point. Especially given how well he fits the community and how loved he his by the players.

He's not been as successful as we wanted 3 years later - but at the time it wasn't some crazy idea.

 

[rrlbees]

Again you are saying what frustrates the heck out of me about SS. Nice guy, good defensive coordinator but if Doug Marrone never left no P5 school was going to hire Scott Shafer as their HC. He hit the freaking lottery and has had the HC job for 3 years but still hasn't learned these game situation mistakes. I mean if the SU Administration didn't screw DM on his contract and the IPF who the heck knows how these past 3 years would have been. However, SS has not to outcoached the opposition and we are praying for him to get it. Keeping him as HC depresses me because of the chilling effect it will have on the next few years of SU football. Apathy will be a lot higher and will be praying for mediocrity next year which is so damn frustrating. I want optimism I want to look forward games right now it is dang frustrating watching Rinse, Repeat, Wash.

Nobody screwed DM on his contract nor the IPF.

 

[Finwad32]

It kills me how quickly everybody forgets how scrutinized DM's game day calls were. He has a stronger than average final season, now we're in the midst of a year and a half struggle and he's remembered in this tremendous light.

Don't get me wrong, I respect DM a ton and always defended him. Doesn't change the fact of how short people's memories are. At the end of year 3 and beginning of year 4, the "dump Doug" movement was almost as strong as right now for SS.

 

[rrlbees]

It kills me how quickly everybody forgets how scrutinized DM's game day calls were. He has a stronger than average final season, now we're in the midst of a year and a half struggle and he's remembered in this tremendous light. Don't get me wrong, I respect DM a ton and always defended him. Doesn't change the fact of how short people's memories are. At the end of year 3 and beginning of year 4, the "dump Doug" movement was almost as strong as right now for SS.

At one point didn't we lose like 9 straight BCS game over 2 seasons? Or am I misremembering that?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You know what really bothers me. We have seen so many glimpses with Dungey where we can score really quickly but then we go conservative where Lester & Shafer start calling plays that stalls the offense especially multiple run plays when the passing game is working. Because what - we have to establish the run? That's not what these high octane offenses do. It's like they want to score a TD on EVERY play.

I know I'm over simplifying things but that's my take. I go back to that time out at FSU before the half its just so illogical to me. The coach from BG, Baylor etc wouldn't have called a time out until the 3rd down if they didn't score by then. You just know that watching those teams play. Nuff said.

You're not oversimplifying things at all. You're dead on, and it is that simple. You've articulated it perfectly.

Some coaches have the mindset that when the offense is on the field, the objective is to score a TD. That doesn't always seem to be our goal. We've seen drives called in ways that suggest that our aim is to ease players in to getting comfortable, or burn clock. Sometimes we give up on drives in favor of field position.

The net result is that we are subjected to razor thin margins for error. Even when we win, it's close. This is a real pattern. We can keep pointing to one mistake late that burns us because we leave the door open for that. It's a consequence of our staff's mentality.

They have 4 games left to figure it out. If they don't, and they do come back next season, it's not going to matter. They will have lowered their ceiling to a point where they're highly unlikely to be better than a six win team.

I want to be clear - I'm not advocating for firing the staff. They control their destiny here. But they need to make a choice and show something. When the previous staff made a similar choice the change was dramatic. There's a reason for that.

 

[Finwad32]

At one point didn't we lose like 9 straight BCS game over 2 seasons? Or am I misremembering that?

I think it was 8 from the end of 2011 to the middle of 2012. I know when we started 2012 2-4, the detractors were out in full force.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It kills me how quickly everybody forgets how scrutinized DM's game day calls were. He has a stronger than average final season, now we're in the midst of a year and a half struggle and he's remembered in this tremendous light.

Don't get me wrong, I respect DM a ton and always defended him. Doesn't change the fact of how short people's memories are. At the end of year 3 and beginning of year 4, the "dump Doug" movement was almost as strong as right now for SS.

I was pretty vocal about Marrone. Still am. But the light bulb turned on and lo and behold, they figured out how to make the most of what they had. And that did change things.