3 Arguments for Shafer

[orangenirvana]

I was pretty vocal about Marrone. Still am. But the light bulb turned on and lo and behold, they figured out how to make the most of what they had. And that did change things.

The light bulb turned on for five games of 2012. Then turned off again when he took the Bills job.

 

[Millhouse]

There are so many Shafer threads but here is my counter to your reasons (posted in UL game is huge). I don't have so much of an opinion to keep or fire Shafer versus an observation.

When you watch the high octane offensive teams they never put on the brakes. Watching the Bowling Green game the other night reminded me of this. At the end of the half BG calls time outs to get the ball back with over 2 minutes left when Ohio had the ball. They then throw 2 long passes each being broken up for in-completes and if I recall they throw another incomplete for a 3 and out. Ohio gets the ball back with about 2 minutes left. I thought it was kind of strange they didn't even run a running play to run down the clock a little bit but I've been programmed to think this way watching SU play for a long time.

So BG's mindset it to go all out all the time to get TDs as they didn't play "not to lose" at end of half but went all out with the kind of abandon we had with playing LSU. I don't mean our coaches should play with reckless abandon but it's a mindset when you watch Bowling Green and other high octane teams like Baylor & Oregon of a year or two ago. All BG wanted to do is score TDs fast and furious.

I wish Shafer & Lester did this ALL THE TIME! I'm not sure if it's the style of play but more of a mindset. I just haven't seen it since the LSU game. I think that's the mindset we want for a competent SU coaching staff to take advantage of its greatest asset - the Dome environment.

The question I have in my mind can Lester & Shafer be the guys who can take advantage of the Dome environment and deliver a high octane offense? Or do we have a coach that calls a time out cause he thinks his offense is "gassed" before the end of a half at FSU. For me this is the crux of the issue regarding Shafer & Lester long term...

good post. i think white knuckling has its merits in the very short run in some situations. but college programs need identities. no one wants white knuckling to be their identity.

and it's not like white knuckling is especially effective. figure out who you want to be and DO IT

 

[Crusty]

The light bulb turned on for five games of 2012. Then turned off again when he took the Bills job.

That bulb was manufactured by Nassib & Co.

 

[Millhouse]

It kills me how quickly everybody forgets how scrutinized DM's game day calls were. He has a stronger than average final season, now we're in the midst of a year and a half struggle and he's remembered in this tremendous light.

Don't get me wrong, I respect DM a ton and always defended him. Doesn't change the fact of how short people's memories are. At the end of year 3 and beginning of year 4, the "dump Doug" movement was almost as strong as right now for SS.

marrone was just as bad if not worse than shafer on timeouts, punting, etc. but i don't think there was any comparison to the warmth of their seat.

 

[TheCusian]

marrone was just as bad if not worse than shafer on timeouts, punting, etc. but i don't think there was any comparison to the warmth of their seat.

Marrone rode his gift SOS in 2010 to a 4th year.

Shafer's problem is:
- he didn't get a down BE and 2 FCS season
- he hired a dud at OC and it took some time to fix... Might not get enough time to see it through

 

[Alsacs]

marrone was just as bad if not worse than shafer on timeouts, punting, etc. but i don't think there was any comparison to the warmth of their seat.

This is beyond obvious. DM took over a 10-37 program. SS took over a 25-25 program.

Why can't people understand that. Nobody wants to lose games. Gerg was killed for saying stupid things. Right now SS is 13-20 and people want to give that another year.

 

[Crusty]

Marrone rode his gift SOS in 2010 to a 4th year.

Shafer's problem is:
- he didn't get a down BE and 2 FCS season
- he hired a dud at OC and it took some time to fix... Might not get enough time to see it through

Let us not forget that dud OC went 7-6 and won a bowl game. Just sayin..

 

[Alsacs]

Marrone rode his gift SOS in 2010 to a 4th year.

Shafer's problem is:
- he didn't get a down BE and 2 FCS season
- he hired a dud at OC and it took some time to fix... Might not get enough time to see it through

We won 4 conference games in 2010. I mean stop it. We played 2 FCS teams because the SUAD couldn't get that whole scheduling thing down and still haven't.
We had to win 7 games to get bowl eligible so even if we played another FBS team we would have gone to a bowl.
Can you please stop comparing the situation DM took over to what SS took over. They were COMPLETELY different.

Marrone took over the worst BCS team in college football. Shafer took over a mediocre team BCS team in college football and has gone backwards. When you take over from the absolute bottom you get WAY MORE ROPE. Another year of this crap and we will be back to Gerg level.

 

[Millhouse]

Let us not forget that dud OC went 7-6 and won a bowl game. Just sayin..

yep.

9-9 record followed by 4-11

just a coincidence

 

[Alsacs]

Let us not forget that dud OC went 7-6 and won a bowl game. Just sayin..

I thought cupboard was bare? We had enough talent to win 6 games in 2013 but not 2014?
People can't say the cupboard argument and use 2013.

The answer is while the talent wasn't elite there was enough left from DM for SS to build on. These past 2 years are enough for me to want something new.

Note: this isn't a shot at anything you said. It is a point to show SS had enough and choose horribly on OC and their was enough for an okay college offense. SS choosing McDonald is on him.

 

[Millhouse]

We won 4 conference games in 2010. I mean stop it. We played 2 FCS teams because the SUAD couldn't get that whole scheduling thing down and still haven't.
We had to win 7 games to get bowl eligible so even if we played another FBS team we would have gone to a bowl.
Can you please stop comparing the situation DM took over to what SS took over. They were COMPLETELY different.

Marrone took over the worst BCS team in college football. Shafer took over a mediocre team BCS team in college football and has gone backwards. When you take over from the absolute bottom you get WAY MORE ROPE. Another year of this crap and we will be back to Gerg level.

2010 was the 100th toughest schedule in SU history. the most recent prior season worse than that schedule was 1954

that schedule really was incredibly weak. it was so bad that the simple rating system scores 2010 as the 81st best season in SU history. only 3 spots better than this season so far.

sort by SOS and SRS. (these rankings are simple it's just score differential weighted by your opponents score differential)

 

[TheCusian]

We won 4 conference games in 2010. I mean stop it. We played 2 FCS teams because the SUAD couldn't get that whole scheduling thing down and still haven't. We had to win 7 games to get bowl eligible so even if we played another FBS team we would have gone to a bowl. Can you please stop comparing the situation DM took over to what SS took over. They were COMPLETELY different. Marrone took over the worst BCS team in college football. Shafer took over a mediocre team BCS team in college football and has gone backwards. When you take over from the absolute bottom you get WAY MORE ROPE. Another year of this crap and we will be back to Gerg level.

I'm not comparing the situation they started with. Marrone did a better job. I'm comparing SOS of their 2nd years. The BE had a very down 2010. There was no FSU or Clemson on the schedule. The OOC games were miles easier than MD and ND.

2010: 105
2014: 26

And we've all read the posts here after the 2-4 start to 2012. Many were fed up with Marrone.

He got more rope and rightly so. But he also had a cupcake year to pad his stats. There is no debating that.

 

[Alsacs]

2010 was the 100th toughest schedule in SU history. the most recent prior season worse than that schedule was 1954

that schedule really was incredibly weak. it was so bad that the simple rating system scores 2010 as the 81st best season in SU history. only 3 spots better than this season so far.

sort by SOS and SRS. (these rankings are simple it's just score differential weighted by your opponents score differential)

Listen I am not calling it the 2001 Syracuse Football schedule but the program had gone 14-45 the previous 5 years. We didn't know how to win as a program. I don't think that season was anything special it was just a positive to get bowl eligible and win a bowl game. The 2nd FCS team was on the schedule because the SUAD still doesn't get how to schedule and the Big East required 5 OOC games and that was ahrd to fill.

 

[TheCusian]

yep. 9-9 record followed by 4-11 just a coincidence

You watched those games right? I'd bet my house that Lester is a better OC than McDonald.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm not comparing the situation they started with. Marrone did a better job. I'm comparing SOS of their 2nd years. The BE had a very down 2010. There was no FSU or Clemson on the schedule. The OOC games were miles easier than MD and ND.

2010: 105
2014: 26

And we've all read the posts here after the 2-4 start to 2012. Many were fed up with Marrone.

He got more rope and rightly so. But he also had a cupcake year to pad his stats. There is no debating that.

2010 OOC games
@Akron
Maine
Colgate
@Washington
Boston College

2014
Villanova
@ Central Michigan
Notre Dame
Maryland

Obviously 2014 was tougher. However, SS has to own chitshow last year. That was a Gerg season. This season we have looked better offensively but the program is losing. Another year of this crap makes being a fan frustrating. I would rather light my money on fire or give it to a charity than waste it on another year of frustration.

 

[TheCusian]

I thought cupboard was bare? We had enough talent to win 6 games in 2013 but not 2014? People can't say the cupboard argument and use 2013. The answer is while the talent wasn't elite there was enough left from DM for SS to build on. These past 2 years are enough for me to want something new. Note: this isn't a shot at anything you said. It is a point to show SS had enough and choose horribly on OC and their was enough for an okay college offense. SS choosing McDonald is on him.

We had enough talent to win 6 in 2014. But McDonald was dysfunctional (on Shafer) and injuries (on the football gods) derailed any hope of that.

 

[Millhouse]

You watched those games right? I'd bet my house that Lester is a better OC than McDonald.

i don't think either of them are d1 offensive coordinators, sorry.

 

[TheCusian]

Listen I am not calling it the 2001 Syracuse Football schedule but the program had gone 14-45 the previous 5 years. We didn't know how to win as a program. I don't think that season was anything special it was just a positive to get bowl eligible and win a bowl game. The 2nd FCS team was on the schedule because the SUAD still doesn't get how to schedule and the Big East required 5 OOC games and that was ahrd to fill.

And that's all true. The program needed a year like that. Marrone and his staff needed a year like that to build off of. It was good. I was happy.

What I'm saying is that Shafer hasn't had a year like that - and if he did - would we be thinking of him differently?

(And as I've said before, 2013 was more impressive than 2010. But I was called a heretic)

 

[storange]

2001 we played #1 Miami, #5 Virginia Tech, #8 Tennessee, #10 Georgia Tech, #25 Boston College
2002 we played #1 Miami #8 Virginia Tech #25 Auburn along w/ North Carolina and BYU.
2003 we played #4 Virginia Tech, #14 Miami, #25 Boston College along w/ at North Carolina and Louisville
2004 we played #8 Florida State, #12 Virginia, #15 West Virginia, #17 Boston College, #24 Purdue
2005 we played #5 Notre Dame, #6 Florida State, #17 Louisville #24 Virginia
2006 we played #4 West Virginia, #14 Iowa, #15 Rutgers
You are correct on this one. I can go on. Our schedule is not any tougher now. We just have the top 2 ACC teams in our division.

So your saying that the ACC is no better then the old BE even post Va Tech and Miami ??

 

[orangenirvana]

That bulb was manufactured by Nassib & Co.

Maybe but I still gave Marrone credit when he suddenly decided to stop attempting 50 yard field goals on 4th and 2 and punting from inside the opponent's 40.

Unfortunately he went back to his comfort zone in the NFL. Hence the "Fourth and Marrone" moniker and Twitter account.

 

[TheCusian]

2010 OOC games @Akron Maine Colgate @Washington Boston College 2014 Villanova @ Central Michigan Notre Dame Maryland Obviously 2014 was tougher. However, SS has to own chitshow last year. That was a Gerg season. This season we have looked better offensively but the program is losing. Another year of this crap makes being a fan frustrating. I would rather light my money on fire or give it to a charity than waste it on another year of frustration.

I agree on the frustration 10000%.

It really comes down to:

- do you believe that he and Bulluogh know defense and will get the ship righted
- do you think the offense could take a jump with these young players in year 2
- can Shafer learn enough to be a better time manager

It's a close call. I'm not sure I'd fire him or keep him at this point.

 

[TheCusian]

i don't think either of them are d1 offensive coordinators, sorry.

Noted

 

[Alsacs]

So your saying that the ACC is no better then the old BE even post Va Tech and Miami ??

Miami and VPI in the OBE were basically what Florida State and Clemson have become.
We played BC and Pitt back then and now.
West Virginia was what basically what Louisville is now.
Temple was what Wake Forest is now
Rutgers was what NC State is now.
Now the Big East didn't have an 8th game but in the ACC we add a game from UNC/Duke/GT/UM/VPI/UVA

Our ACC schedule is not much different from the OBE and we typically played a big boy in OOC play like Auburn/Tennessee/Michigan/Florida State etc.

 

[Scooch]

Pugh missed the first four games as I remember and if some unlucky plays that went the other way we might have had 10 wins. We were so close it was tantalizing.

Yep, things happen. They were still 2-4 and 4-5 though. We also needed to beat a mediocre USF team on the last play on the game. Luck breaks both ways.

But then that magical 4 game run.

Memmmmmorieeees!

 

[Alsacs]

I agree on the frustration 10000%.

It really comes down to:

- do you believe that he and Bulluogh know defense and will get the ship righted
- do you think the offense could take a jump with these young players in year 2
- can Shafer learn enough to be a better time manager

It's a close call. I'm not sure I'd fire him or keep him at this point.

I have more confidence in Lester as OC than SS as HC. I have been defending Lester recently I put the offense slowness on the D and that is on the HC and DC who are defense guys.

I don't believe Bullough will get the ship righted I would have more confidence in Daoust.
I don't think the offense will jump that much unless the D is better.
No. To the last one.