3 elite 8's since 1989?

[AZOrange]

It's sort of like the magic in having $1,000 versus $100. As in: IT'S BETTER.

Complicated concept.

Bad analogy. I can stick money in my pocket and be happy either way. Elite 8s are meaningless, at least as much so as a Sweet 16. No one cares about Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, etc. The ONLY thing that matters in college hoops is National Championships (and maybe a Final Four). The other stuff is just a way to nip at our stellar program. I mean was the Elite 8 in the late 80s a good season? Hell no, it sucked!

 

[AZOrange]

No magic number. Was just wondering if that was correct.No harm meant.

Understood. Let's say as another poster did earlier that we had won in 1987 and 1996, in addition to 2003. would our lack of Elite 8s still be an issue?

Its like when Yankee people would somehow massage the team's stumbles in the postseason by saying "well we made 14 straight playoffs". BFD...(and I am a yankee fan).

 

[Rossco123]

Had a feeling i should have never started this thread.Nothing good can come from it.

That! -- and this is a time to stay the -- off other peoples boards. If you are juvenile enough to go out rubbing salt in wounds it will come back here and we don't need that.

 

[AZOrange]

That! -- and this is a time to stay the -- off other peoples boards. If you are juvenile enough to go out rubbing salt in wounds it will come back here and we don't need that.

It's nice to have BlueCurtain back bashing whatever shred he can find at this point.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I'm not sure what you are arguing for. On the one hand you seem to be suggesting that since we won the NC, we should fold up the tent and end the program. On the other hand you are suggesting that we should all just grow up, stop worrying about getting to the Elite 8 and instead just focus on winning another NC. Maybe you know about a new structure for the NCAA tourney, but I'm not sure how these events can be exclusive.

(1) Not "arguing" anything. And where you came up with - "..since we won the NC, we should fold up the tent & end the program", is beyond me. I'll let you work through that one on your own.

(2) My point is that there's often a tone that builds on threads like this one, ie: "Are we an "elite" program, what constitutes "elite", & does SU measure up" ?
IMHO, based on the consistency & longevity of this program's success, that issue should no longer be in question & based on the body of work, I believe most folks would agree.

Color me one of those who put that matter to rest after we scaled the mountain in '03. Details such as 3 Elite8's, or number of games won w/out a NC, or how many years it took JB to get one, seemed to have paled in comparison with that one victory.
How others choose to approach that is on them- hence my very liberal & repeated use of JMHO. I just believe its ultimately an exercise in futility, & better to look forward to ANOTHER NC...hopefully this upcoming season.
JMHO

 

[HoustonCuse]

"We made it...we won. Why can't we pull a Vietnam, declare victory" - That is where I came up with fold up the tents. Pulling a Vietnam means to stop playing the game and say you've accomplished all you set out to do.

I agree with your other points, but the epic lack of success in the round of 16 definitely vexes me and chips away at the 'elite argument' (although I feel the program has plenty of other accomplishments to be considered elite).

 

[strumpfasaurus]

This is my personal analysis of Jim Boehiem. Jim Boeheim is like the guy who gets last place in the Olympics. You got last place but hey you're still in the freaking olympics. If you stack him up against all the other great coaches (Coack K, Izzo, Calhoun, Knight, etc.) He is not as good as these coaches but still deserves to be in these guys company, and that is one hell of a company to be in.

 

[CUSEBB1]

That! -- and this is a time to stay the -- off other peoples boards. If you are juvenile enough to go out rubbing salt in wounds it will come back here and we don't need that.

Um, you need to back up and learn to read buddy.Where did it say i posted on someones board or even rubbed something in.I have never in my life posted on someone elses board slick.I said i READ it on another board(Uconns to be exact).So before you go spouting off at the mouth, know what the hell your talking about pal.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Not for nothing, & not directed at anyone in particular, but threads like this have never made much sense to me.

We've been an elite, yes..ELITE, program for damn near 40 years. UConn, GTown, SJU, Pitt, have at one time or another, all measured & claimed Syracuse as their rival. Think about that...they've gone up or down...but we've ALWAYS won, consistently, like clockwork. We've been the benchmark & measuring stick for most if not all CBB programs in this conference.

Well, that depends. "Elite." How many elite teams are there? If you say 20, then yeah, sure. If you say five, then no. Personally, when someone says "elite," No, i don't include Syracuse. Can't.

I did the math last season and found that Syracuse was no better than the 4.-somethingth best team In The Big East.
Considering where we finished over the past 15 seasons, averaged out, we were almost the fifth team. That, no matter the 2003 championship or the 96 accomplishments, doesn't equate to "elite."

As you point out, the CONSISTENCY of relevance is something to be proud of. There have been very few seasons where we're not supposed to be a factor. But, still, "factor" versus "elite" - they aren't the same thing, and being a 'fan' doesn't mean you have to insist they are.

I'm glad someone had the courage to start this thread. It may not be wholly positive and rah-rah, but it's an objective commentary. Nothing wrong with that. Objectivity is a trait more fans should embrace.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Bad analogy. I can stick money in my pocket and be happy either way. Elite 8s are meaningless, at least as much so as a Sweet 16. No one cares about Sweet 16s, Elite 8s, etc. The ONLY thing that matters in college hoops is National Championships (and maybe a Final Four). The other stuff is just a way to nip at our stellar program. I mean was the Elite 8 in the late 80s a good season? Hell no, it sucked!

Aside from 3 years in his entire coaching career, his teams have wilted when they got to the Sweet 16, which is typically when the stakes get raised in the tourny. It's a little bit shocking that he hasn't advanced further more often. Doesn't make you a bad fan to question why.

 

[DoctorBombay]

"We made it...we won. Why can't we pull a Vietnam, declare victory" - That is where I came up with fold up the tents. Pulling a Vietnam means to stop playing the game and say you've accomplished all you set out to do.

I agree with your other points, but the epic lack of success in the round of 16 definitely vexes me and chips away at the 'elite argument' (although I feel the program has plenty of other accomplishments to be considered elite).

Ok- I see your point there, & you're right about the Vietnam analogy.

As for the lack of Sweet16 success, I guess that pales in comparison to the overall body of work, IMO.
To me its akin to the argument in baseball of whether a player is simply a "Hall of Famer", or a "1st-Ballot Hall of Famer".
After the NC, my attitude became something like, "who gives a %*k, we're still in the HOF"! Therefore, continuing to debate the finer points of "elite" especially when we more than qualify, again IMO, seems a bit pointless. :noidea:

 

[Rossco123]

Um, you need to back up and learn to read buddy.Where did it say i posted on someones board or even rubbed something in.I have never in my life posted on someone elses board slick.I said i READ it on another board(Uconns to be exact).So before you go spouting off at the mouth, know what the hell your talking about pal.

Well no one has referred to me as slick since the 1950s and it would appear that I am not your pal.
It was meant to be a generalized comment and perhaps I should have excluded you -- but just in case anyone is out there trolling please don’t leave a trail of cooky crumbs back to this board. It attracts flies.

 

[SWC75]

We have certainly lost to a lot more lower seeded teams in the tourny vs beating teams that were higher than us in seed. We have those 3 awesome years but too many "also ran" years that ended with a crushing loss to a worse seed.

From my annual post: The Upside/Downside of JB:



JB is 46-27, (.630) in conference tourney games. I also checked how he did when seeded as a favorite and an underdog. He’s 28-11 as a favorite, (.718) and 18-16, (.529) as an underdog. In the NCAA/NIT he’s 57-35, (.620), 41-12, (.773) as a favorite, (I have nothing on NIT seedings prior to this year and the NCAA began formal seedings only in 1979) but only 7-15 (.318), as an underdog. It should be noted that as an NCAA dog, SU has generally been up against a very high seeded team. The Orange has always been at least an 8 seed. They’ve been that once, a 7 and a 6 twice each, four times a 4 seed, five times a 4 or 2 seed, five times a 3 seed and twice, a #1 seed. JB’s overall post season record is 103-62, (.624), including 69-23 as a higher seed, (.750) and 25-31 as a lower seed (.446). The fact that they’ve been the higher seeded team far more times than the lower seed speaks for itself. He’s pulled off more upsets than he has been upset and in fewer chances. When Jim Boeheim has a chance to pull of an upset, he does so 45% of the time but only gets upset 25% of the time when he’s the favorite.

 

[CUSEBB1]

Well no one has referred to me as slick since the 1950s and it would appear that I am not your pal.
It was meant to be a generalized comment and perhaps I should have excluded you -- but just in case anyone is out there trolling please don’t leave a trail of cooky crumbs back to this board. It attracts flies.

Sorry for being so harsh.Your post replying to mine caught me off guard and i didn't take it well.

 

[CUSEBB1]

From my annual post: The Upside/Downside of JB:

JB is 46-27, (.630) in conference tourney games. I also checked how he did when seeded as a favorite and an underdog. He’s 28-11 as a favorite, (.718) and 18-16, (.529) as an underdog. In the NCAA/NIT he’s 57-35, (.620), 41-12, (.773) as a favorite, (I have nothing on NIT seedings prior to this year and the NCAA began formal seedings only in 1979) but only 7-15 (.318), as an underdog. It should be noted that as an NCAA dog, SU has generally been up against a very high seeded team. The Orange has always been at least an 8 seed. They’ve been that once, a 7 and a 6 twice each, four times a 4 seed, five times a 4 or 2 seed, five times a 3 seed and twice, a #1 seed. JB’s overall post season record is 103-62, (.624), including 69-23 as a higher seed, (.750) and 25-31 as a lower seed (.446). The fact that they’ve been the higher seeded team far more times than the lower seed speaks for itself. He’s pulled off more upsets than he has been upset and in fewer chances. When Jim Boeheim has a chance to pull of an upset, he does so 45% of the time but only gets upset 25% of the time when he’s the favorite.

Good stuff.I can live with the numbers.

 

[Madbiker]

It's 4 elite 8's since '87 ('87, '89,'96,'03)...now that sounds better.

 

[orangefan13]

So we lose a game now and then come march. Why not look at the regular season instead??
Compare our seed going into the tournament instead. We earned that seed.

Thets not forget sherm was sick one year AO went down one year. And a few close games down the wire in the tournament.

4 elite 8's since 87 = meaningless stat when you play a great season.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Bottom line, we are too great a program, and JB too great a coach, for him to retire without winning multiple championships. Hopefully this year we put it all together... then he still has time to match Calhoun.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

So we lose a game now and then come march. Why not look at the regular season instead??
Compare our seed going into the tournament instead. We earned that seed.

Thets not forget sherm was sick one year AO went down one year. And a few close games down the wire in the tournament.

4 elite 8's since 87 = meaningless stat when you play a great season.

I disagree man, as much as I would love to agree with you we just don't get it done in the tournament like we should and people only remember how you do in the tournament. No one remembers how kansas was supposed to win the NC 2 years ago they only remember their upset to northern iowa. To be frankly honest it is my senior year at Syracuse and I am dying fora final four and going out with a bang.

 

[alphaorange]

I think one thing that gets overlooked is some of the bad luck SU has had during the tournament. In '95 we were a ill-timed TO from being at least in the final four, IMO. That wasn't on JB at all. AO's injury keep us from another high level run. And didn't key players on the team that lost to Richmond have the flu? And of course we have run into the occasional wrong team at the wrong time, like Illinois. I know that some of these things happen to all teams, I think you'd be hard pressed to find another elite team with as much bad karma.

 

[orangefan13]

75 no seed final 4.
79 4 seed
80 1 seed
83 6 seed
84 3 seed
85 7 seed
86 2 seed
87 2 seed should have won title.
88 3 seed
89 2 seed elite 8
902 seed
91 2 seed
92 6 seed BE Champions
94 4 seed
95 7 seed
96 4 seed runner up
98 5 seed
99 8 seed
00 4 seed
01 5 seed
03 3 seed NC.
04 6 seed
05 4seed
06 5 seed
09 3 seed
10 1 seed
11 3 seed

Thats pretty darn good if you ask me. I agree March is most important but come on we defenetly have muscles to flex.

Everyone wants to talk about march but just Look at that 7 year stretch from 86-92. 2 2 3 2 2 2 BE champion 6 seed. Thats the equivilent ranking wise of 5 elite 8's in 6 years.

. Also realize the 2-3 zone depends on more roles and responsibilites you can't just put a Thabeet in the middle and a couple of slower combo guards up top who can't extend to make it final four material.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Well, that depends. "Elite." How many elite teams are there? If you say 20, then yeah, sure. If you say five, then no. Personally, when someone says "elite," No, i don't include Syracuse. Can't.

I did the math last season and found that Syracuse was no better than the 4.-somethingth best team In The Big East.
Considering where we finished over the past 15 seasons, averaged out, we were almost the fifth team. That, no matter the 2003 championship or the 96 accomplishments, doesn't equate to "elite."

As you point out, the CONSISTENCY of relevance is something to be proud of. There have been very few seasons where we're not supposed to be a factor. But, still, "factor" versus "elite" - they aren't the same thing, and being a 'fan' doesn't mean you have to insist they are.

I'm glad someone had the courage to start this thread. It may not be wholly positive and rah-rah, but it's an objective commentary. Nothing wrong with that. Objectivity is a trait more fans should embrace.

 

[TinyManInside]

I wish someone could explain to me the magic in the Elite 8 number. We win 3 games in the tourney compared to 2? Anything short of a title is failure for elite teams every year and only 1 team wins.

The point is to compete for a National Championship. One more win is one win closer to that goal. Seems like a pretty basic concept to me.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

What about Top 10? Is that "elite"? I think so. We are probably considered a Top 10 program.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28116552/ns/sports-college_basketball/

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2862455

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8212

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3501739

Too much emphasis is placed on the NCAA Tournament, IMO. There are several criteria, in addition to that.

There is no question Syracuse is one of the elite basketball programs in the country. Are we Kentucky, Kansas, Duke or UNC? No, but I'd say we are a better program than Louisville, Indiana, Georgetown, Maryland, Florida or Arizona and close to Michigan State and UConn. Kentucky just made their first Final Four in about 14 years. Louisville hasn't won a title in a 1/4 century, and aside from a couple good runs under Pitino, they have done very little since the 1980's. What has Arizona done? UCLA made 3 Final Fours in a row under Howland, and little since. Is Indiana or Maryland elite? I don't think so.

When I think of elite, I think of the best programs in the country. I think Pitt is, but nobody would put them on this list.

 

[SoBeCuse]

75 no seed final 4.
79 4 seed
80 1 seed
83 6 seed
84 3 seed
85 7 seed
86 2 seed
87 2 seed should have won title.
88 3 seed
89 2 seed elite 8
902 seed
91 2 seed
92 6 seed BE Champions
94 4 seed
95 7 seed
96 4 seed runner up
98 5 seed
99 8 seed
00 4 seed
01 5 seed
03 3 seed NC.
04 6 seed
05 4seed
06 5 seed
09 3 seed
10 1 seed
11 3 seed

Thats pretty darn good if you ask me. I agree March is most important but come on we defenetly have muscles to flex.

Everyone wants to talk about march but just Look at that 7 year stretch from 86-92. 2 2 3 2 2 2 BE champion 6 seed. Thats the equivilent ranking wise elite 8, elite 8, top 12, elite 8 elite 8 elite 8, in 6 years .

. Also realize the 2-3 zone depends on more roles and responsibilites you can't just put a Thabeet in the middle and a couple of slower combo guards up top who can't extend to make it final four material.

The slower combo guards have been part of our problem the last few years, IMO. Not enough good and quick ball handlers against solid m2m defense. That is just a pure fact and not any speculation. Yeah we usually get into the tourney and have pretty good seeds but we have to start doing better, period. Nationally, from a media perspective I think we have a bit of choke/underperforming cloud hanging over us. I don't like it and it's starting to become a bad recurring theme.

I am excited about the potential of our guards this season. The changed bodies and seemingly improved quickness could be really huge. We won't really know until we play the Pitts, Marq, and ULs but more likely than not we will face another tough m2m similar to those guys somewhere in the tournament. I'm sick of the excuses also. Sure the AO injury was a bad break, the KJo takedown, and so was drawing Marq, but we have overcome this somehow. One could argue that Butler would've pressured Scoop and co. so badly and made them pick up the dribble too far from the basket (big problem of theirs due to lack of quickness), taking AO out of the equation. Who knows? I am encouraged though for this coming season and the future. If we are dealt one of those types of teams, hopefully we have the personnel to make a big run if you look beyond the recruiting rankings. LGO!