A football post in honor of Spring Practice

[billsin01]

Figured I'd post a collection of thoughts in honor of the start of spring practice, which I just realized was starting. Apparently the 5-game losing streak had a negative impact on my diehardness.

Regardless, here goes:

Burning Questions
What does this offense look like ... again?
Regardless of your opinion on Mackey, Marrone, Nassib, Hackett, the offensive system, the Republican primaries and Iran, we can all agree that we need more offense. Marrone has been willing to adjust but he didn't tweak his offensive brain trust. So what does that mean? Well, I'd expect Nassib to be more involved running the ball, there may be some sets for a running QB (Kinder, Hunt should he return, Broyld), and I would think there has to be some effort to get a bit more diversified and vertical in the passing game. Will any of that show up this spring? I also wonder if there will be any effort to play at a faster pace.

Young receivers/backs
Playmakers wanted. We know Sales might bring some of that in his return and we can all cross our fingers for a healthy Lemon this fall (unless he's already ruled out and i missed it, which is a distinct possibility). But what of our young guys? A healthy PTG would be interesting and potentially pretty dangerous. Kobena certain has speed, can he turn into a receiver? Hale? AAM? Foster? Flemming? And what of the new TEs along with Wales. Loved Provo but a mismatch-type would be outstanding.

How's about a pass rush?
Losing Chandler doesn't help here but I'd LOVE to see someone emerge as a speed rusher. Think it would make Shafer that much better as a DC. Candidates? I'm' guessing the juco kids this year could be part of the answer as could a kid like Donnie Simmons. Here's hoping.

Schedule
I know this is a hot-button topic and I'm in a unique position as an out-of-towner, but I personally don't mind the Missou game. It's nice to have more home games but I honestly think it's good to play good competition and I have zero problem with neutral site games since I think the dome as basically a horrendous football venue.

Special teams
Here's what I'm looking for this spring -- improvement. Please God let them improve. Please. Even if it's just a kickoff guy and a few less penalties. I'll take it!

Anyone else with more informed, better thought-out observations?

 

[Chip]

I hope Sales is in good shape. For me it was a rumor from someone I'll never see again, but at halftime of one of the games this year, I heard a conversation where one guy was saying he knew Sales well, and he wasn't in good enough shape if he were to be granted a return in 2011. Hoping now, the second chance has him focused.

As for QB, I know most want to see Broyld, but I'm most interested in seeing if Kinder can step up since Hunt won't be there. I have a feeling Broyld is going to be digesting so much info, and is going to be so raw early on, that this spring isn't going to give us too much. Kinder has been in the system for a couple years, and while he may never be an answer, would be nice to see him develop into a viable option/alternative.

 

[44PRIDE]

One thing I want to see this year is for HCDM to be Head Coach Doug Marrone. Not for him to try and become the second coming of Coach Mac.

Loosen the reins a little bit and let these young guys be young guys.

 

[OrangeMojo]

so is there still an open viewing policy for spring practice his year? I know there was the last two seasons but haven't heard if that was being continued this year. Between the losing streak and the success of the hoops team it hasn't really been a point of discussion or concern from what I've seen. :noidea:

 

[CaliCuse]

Figured I'd post a collection of thoughts in honor of the start of spring practice, which I just realized was starting. Apparently the 5-game losing streak had a negative impact on my diehardness.

Regardless, here goes:

Burning Questions
What does this offense look like ... again?
Regardless of your opinion on Mackey, Marrone, Nassib, Hackett, the offensive system, the Republican primaries and Iran, we can all agree that we need more offense. Marrone has been willing to adjust but he didn't tweak his offensive brain trust. So what does that mean? Well, I'd expect Nassib to be more involved running the ball, there may be some sets for a running QB (Kinder, Hunt should he return, Broyld), and I would think there has to be some effort to get a bit more diversified and vertical in the passing game. Will any of that show up this spring? I also wonder if there will be any effort to play at a faster pace.

Young receivers/backs
Playmakers wanted. We know Sales might bring some of that in his return and we can all cross our fingers for a healthy Lemon this fall (unless he's already ruled out and i missed it, which is a distinct possibility). But what of our young guys? A healthy PTG would be interesting and potentially pretty dangerous. Kobena certain has speed, can he turn into a receiver? Hale? AAM? Foster? Flemming? And what of the new TEs along with Wales. Loved Provo but a mismatch-type would be outstanding.

How's about a pass rush?
Losing Chandler doesn't help here but I'd LOVE to see someone emerge as a speed rusher. Think it would make Shafer that much better as a DC. Candidates? I'm' guessing the juco kids this year could be part of the answer as could a kid like Donnie Simmons. Here's hoping.

Schedule
I know this is a hot-button topic and I'm in a unique position as an out-of-towner, but I personally don't mind the Missou game. It's nice to have more home games but I honestly think it's good to play good competition and I have zero problem with neutral site games since I think the dome as basically a horrendous football venue.

Special teams
Here's what I'm looking for this spring -- improvement. Please God let them improve. Please. Even if it's just a kickoff guy and a few less penalties. I'll take it!

Anyone else with more informed, better thought-out observations?

" Horrendous footballvenue"? I think our fans or lack of then state wide is horrendous but not the zDome. I was able to have season tickets for many years and loved it. If there was no Dome for football,I wouldn't have traveled and taken my chance with the weather. No WAY!! My son travels up when he can and the Dome is why he does for the same reason. As I recall my city ,it was rainy cloudy and that the "good months" Having been there when subjected to snow and ice,the Dome is the very best considering we can't touch 40K no matter who we play. The fans make it disgusting with their absence. A loud Dome is formidable to play in .
Let me address STs. PUNT RETURNS especially. They don't exist. You must design "the wal block and enough time via blocks to let your return man secure the ball and decide which direction to run. Even Holmes need a couple three seconds to do that. As fo kick returns A blocking scheme is required then as well. Getting the forward blockers to generally block in unison left or right might provide a fast return man to find the seam and get through it. Its effn unbelievable that there is no coaching involved here or even a ST coach in the program. I blame both Doug and Darryl for that. OnSTs have you seen a blocked punt lately? A blocked fgA? Having a punt get off without it being blocked or making a fg isn't the A+ for STs. not by a long shot we have enough speed to make the defensive part of the plays but don't use it . Yeah I'm pissed and have been because its lost yardage on offense. Yardage not gained on a punt return must be retaken by the offense. Its stupid game strategy.:bat:

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I hope Sales is in good shape. For me it was a rumor from someone I'll never see again, but at halftime of one of the games this year, I heard a conversation where one guy was saying he knew Sales well, and he wasn't in good enough shape if he were to be granted a return in 2011. Hoping now, the second chance has him focused.

As for QB, I know most want to see Broyld, but I'm most interested in seeing if Kinder can step up since Hunt won't be there. I have a feeling Broyld is going to be digesting so much info, and is going to be so raw early on, that this spring isn't going to give us too much. Kinder has been in the system for a couple years, and while he may never be an answer, would be nice to see him develop into a viable option/alternative.

Sales is never in great shape, he will be ready to go in August, I would imagine that he has been working what is perceived to be hard for him, which should put him slightl below average for the spring as far as being in shape

One thing I want to see this year is for HCDM to be Head Coach Doug Marrone. Not for him to try and become the second coming of Coach Mac.

Loosen the reins a little bit and let these young guys be young guys.

I guess I don't understand posts like these? Marrone isn't an oger who doesn't allow the kids to have any fun, I think he just asks them to act responsibly , sets a few guidelines to be followed and represent the University in a respectable mannner. How should he loosen the reins? I don't get it. SHould he not have penalized any of these kids who have screwed up?

 

[xc84]

" Horrendous footballvenue"? I think our fans or lack of then state wide is horrendous but not the zDome. I was able to have season tickets for many years and loved it. If there was no Dome for football,I wouldn't have traveled and taken my chance with the weather. No WAY!! My son travels up when he can and the Dome is why he does for the same reason. As I recall my city ,it was rainy cloudy and that the "good months" Having been there when subjected to snow and ice,the Dome is the very best considering we can't touch 40K no matter who we play. The fans make it disgusting with their absence. A loud Dome is formidable to play in .

I agree. The dome is great and if you really want to SEE the game and the players, there's not a bad seat in the joint...and they sell beer to boot. I would bet that the same people who claim they don't like indoor football would stay away in droves if we had an open-air stadium and a bad (snow, sleet, cold) weather day. I do want to point out that average paid attendance last year was over 40K. Sure, not every game had that many really in attendance but for some we did. In addition, "absent fans" is a bit of an oxymoron isn't it?

 

[44PRIDE]

I guess I don't understand posts like these? Marrone isn't an oger who doesn't allow the kids to have any fun, I think he just asks them to act responsibly , sets a few guidelines to be followed and represent the University in a respectable mannner. How should he loosen the reins? I don't get it. SHould he not have penalized any of these kids who have screwed up?

We've said it many times in these forums that HCDM would've thrown Doug Marrone (the player) off the team for some of his actions back in the day.

It's not that HCDM shouldn't penalize these kids (smoking pot is illegal and should be punished). I'm talking about the incidental stuff like always wearing collared shirts and etiquette classes...etc. Wearing a t-shirt isn't disrespectful of the University and knowing what fork to eat with doesn't make you a better person.

My hope is these kids are held to the same standard as other SU students. These guys are under enough stress and don't need a coach tightening the screws any more than necessary.

 

[OrangePA]

We've said it many times in these forums that HCDM would've thrown Doug Marrone (the player) off the team for some of his actions back in the day.

It's not that HCDM shouldn't penalize these kids (smoking pot is illegal and should be punished). I'm talking about the incidental stuff like always wearing collared shirts and etiquette classes...etc. Wearing a t-shirt isn't disrespectful of the University and knowing what fork to eat with doesn't make you a better person.

My hope is these kids are held to the same standard as other SU students. These guys are under enough stress and don't need a coach tightening the screws any more than necessary.

I disagree.

The small rules - the insistence upon paying attention to detail is crucial in developing a winning football program.

Discipline is important.

Failing to honor rules is direspectful to the program and the University and developing manners and etiquete does make one a better person.

And players like being disciplined and held to a high standard on and off the field.

So, I disagree with your post.

 

[OrangePA]

I hope Sales is in good shape. For me it was a rumor from someone I'll never see again, but at halftime of one of the games this year, I heard a conversation where one guy was saying he knew Sales well, and he wasn't in good enough shape if he were to be granted a return in 2011. Hoping now, the second chance has him focused.

As for QB, I know most want to see Broyld, but I'm most interested in seeing if Kinder can step up since Hunt won't be there. I have a feeling Broyld is going to be digesting so much info, and is going to be so raw early on, that this spring isn't going to give us too much. Kinder has been in the system for a couple years, and while he may never be an answer, would be nice to see him develop into a viable option/alternative.

I agree.

I want to see John Kinder play serious minutes this spring.

 

[OrangeMojo]

I hope Sales is in good shape. For me it was a rumor from someone I'll never see again, but at halftime of one of the games this year, I heard a conversation where one guy was saying he knew Sales well, and he wasn't in good enough shape if he were to be granted a return in 2011. Hoping now, the second chance has him focused.

As for QB, I know most want to see Broyld, but I'm most interested in seeing if Kinder can step up since Hunt won't be there. I have a feeling Broyld is going to be digesting so much info, and is going to be so raw early on, that this spring isn't going to give us too much. Kinder has been in the system for a couple years, and while he may never be an answer, would be nice to see him develop into a viable option/alternative.

I'm definitely interested to see what Kinder and Broyld can do, but the player I was looking forward to seeing the most this spring was Hunt - really bummed that he screwed up like that and that the punishment was as severe as it ended up being

 

[OrangePA]

I'm definitely interested to see what Kinder and Broyld can do, but the player I was looking forward to seeing the most this spring was Hunt - really bummed that he screwed up like that and that the punishment was as severe as it ended up being

Yes. Very disappointing.

 

[billsin01]

I disagree.

The small rules - the insistence upon paying attention to detail is crucial in developing a winning football program.

Discipline is important.

Failing to honor rules is direspectful to the program and the University and developing manners and etiquete does make one a better person.

And players like being disciplined and held to a high standard on and off the field.

So, I disagree with your post.

It's nice in theory, though I suppose if it's costing you talent it's not that great. I'm not at all suggesting it's costing them talent, by the way.

At the end of the day, and I'm sure most on the board will disagree with this, it doesn't matter. Developing men, and sports as a way of developing character, and high character recruits and team GPAs -- it's all a rouse.

The bottom line is this: Whatever you're selling, kids need to buy into it. If it's Schiano's FAMILY BS at RU, fine. If it's Charlie Weis' I'm the smartest guy in the world routine, fine. If it's Bobby Bowden's Praise Jesus routine, fine. If it's Pete Carroll's I'm a Surfer Dude, fine. If it's JoePa's "I'm a high moral character guy" thing, find. Just win and get kids to buy into whatever BS you're selling.

I'm not saying it's not a nice idea to have pretty good kids, but let's be honest -- this is a business. A lot of kids on the BE honor roll is great -- it won't make up for 1-6 conference records.

Marrone is in the business of winning games -- if he kicks a few kids off b/c he thinks it helps him develop discipline among the remaining team members, so be it. If he wants to loosen up a bit, whatever. But there are going to be somewhere around 100 kids coming through the doors every four years and they're all going to fall somewhere on the scale between Total -up and Great, Hard-Working, High Character, Team First Winner. It's just odds people.

So my point is -- relax. Don't care so much. A kid cheats to get a B in philosophy? Fine, a bunch of kids do that. Just don't get caught and score TDs on Saturday. A kid single-handedly builds 15 homes for habitat for humanity. Awesome, but he better have some talent.

 

[OrangeAl]

...I have zero problem with neutral site games since I think the dome as basically a horrendous football venue.

Oh, come on. You just blew your credibility with that statement. You can't get more seats closer to the field than in the Carrier Dome, and there's Joe Morris' broken collarbone to prove it.

 

[OrangePA]

It's nice in theory, though I suppose if it's costing you talent it's not that great. I'm not at all suggesting it's costing them talent, by the way.

At the end of the day, and I'm sure most on the board will disagree with this, it doesn't matter. Developing men, and sports as a way of developing character, and high character recruits and team GPAs -- it's all a rouse.

The bottom line is this: Whatever you're selling, kids need to buy into it. If it's Schiano's FAMILY BS at RU, fine. If it's Charlie Weis' I'm the smartest guy in the world routine, fine. If it's Bobby Bowden's Praise Jesus routine, fine. If it's Pete Carroll's I'm a Surfer Dude, fine. If it's JoePa's "I'm a high moral character guy" thing, find. Just win and get kids to buy into whatever BS you're selling.

I'm not saying it's not a nice idea to have pretty good kids, but let's be honest -- this is a business. A lot of kids on the BE honor roll is great -- it won't make up for 1-6 conference records.

Marrone is in the business of winning games -- if he kicks a few kids off b/c he thinks it helps him develop discipline among the remaining team members, so be it. If he wants to loosen up a bit, whatever. But there are going to be somewhere around 100 kids coming through the doors every four years and they're all going to fall somewhere on the scale between Total -up and Great, Hard-Working, High Character, Team First Winner. It's just odds people.

So my point is -- relax. Don't care so much. A kid cheats to get a B in philosophy? Fine, a bunch of kids do that. Just don't get caught and score TDs on Saturday. A kid single-handedly builds 15 homes for habitat for humanity. Awesome, but he better have some talent.

You have to understand a few things: (1) Coach Marrone truly believes in developing the person - that is important to him; (2) to many alums - me included - it's important to run a program that developes young men; (3) when a program does not have overwhelming talent, it must rely upon hard working individuals who have strong character etc.

You may not think it's important, but many do.

 

[billsin01]

You have to understand a few things: (1) Coach Marrone truly believes in developing the person - that is important to him; (2) to many alums - me included - it's important to run a program that developes young men; (3) when a program does not have overwhelming talent, it must rely upon hard working individuals who have strong character etc.

You may not think it's important, but many do.

I think it's extremely important for my own kids. I don't think I will be relying on a football coach to do it. Can he help? I suppose (though my kids aren't going to be football stars any more than I was, I would guess), but seriously, these kids have been developed by other influences for 18-19 years -- 18-19 YEARS!! I mean, Marrone can help them develop but there are a lot of things he can't control and to think he should simply turn his back on a kid who may be a character concern makes no sense -- in fact, you could argue that if he brought 20 character concerns into the program each year and turned 3 of them around he'd be doing far more good than bringing in 20 terrific young men every year.

I'd love to think we'd have a team of great kids -- I swear, I would love that -- but it's just naive. Try to help kids develop? Sure, but should he be taking chances on iffy kids (academically and otherwise) if it helps improve the talent level? Absolutely. I honestly don't see how people miss this fact. Tony Rice had no business getting into ND -- none. The guy is, by all accounts, a terrific guy and a successful professional. Risks are part of this game.

And, by the way, I don't doubt that Marrone believes his own pitch about developing men. Coaches need to buy into this stuff as well to sell it effectively. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but I doubt Schiano was going home at night going, "This FAMILY stuff is such horses--t!"

 

[CaliCuse]

I think it's extremely important for my own kids. I don't think I will be relying on a football coach to do it. Can he help? I suppose (though my kids aren't going to be football stars any more than I was, I would guess), but seriously, these kids have been developed by other influences for 18-19 years -- 18-19 YEARS!! I mean, Marrone can help them develop but there are a lot of things he can't control and to think he should simply turn his back on a kid who may be a character concern makes no sense -- in fact, you could argue that if he brought 20 character concerns into the program each year and turned 3 of them around he'd be doing far more good than bringing in 20 terrific young men every year.

I'd love to think we'd have a team of great kids -- I swear, I would love that -- but it's just naive. Try to help kids develop? Sure, but should he be taking chances on iffy kids (academically and otherwise) if it helps improve the talent level? Absolutely. I honestly don't see how people miss this fact. Tony Rice had no business getting into ND -- none. The guy is, by all accounts, a terrific guy and a successful professional. Risks are part of this game.

And, by the way, I don't doubt that Marrone believes his own pitch about developing men. Coaches need to buy into this stuff as well to sell it effectively. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but I doubt Schiano was going home at night going, "This FAMILY stuff is such horses--t!"

Having spoken Doug before he started at Syracuse I know how deeply he feels about this "character building responsibility. I fully agree that the job of the psarents is where it should begin and be imbeded . I have a problem with exactly WHAT constitutes this character development? In many ways we can have a difference of opinion on that subject. What I think may be tolerent may not fall in your relm of the same. I have a friend who is a hard line conservative who is very strict with his kids . Now they are off to college and oops they are free from the collar of parents and making some choices. Mr and Mrs mom and dad don't like and approve. What a shock. Both are quality young adults and will never go too far away from their upbringing but not nearly as tight with the rules as parents would prefer. I think young adults away at college need to make their own decisions about things including drug and alcohol. How much or at all is going to be their decision and not to be looked at by a football coach trying to run and shape their lives artificially with rules that hurt everyone. Who these kids hang out with is a part of growing up and making decisions. Allow them to do so. If they can't make quality decisions and wind up in handcuffs ,its their proble If a kid has a drink and goes into Adult World you can't hurt the whole team by suspending the kid from the team.:crazy:

 

[OrangePA]

I think it's extremely important for my own kids. I don't think I will be relying on a football coach to do it. Can he help? I suppose (though my kids aren't going to be football stars any more than I was, I would guess), but seriously, these kids have been developed by other influences for 18-19 years -- 18-19 YEARS!! I mean, Marrone can help them develop but there are a lot of things he can't control and to think he should simply turn his back on a kid who may be a character concern makes no sense -- in fact, you could argue that if he brought 20 character concerns into the program each year and turned 3 of them around he'd be doing far more good than bringing in 20 terrific young men every year.

I'd love to think we'd have a team of great kids -- I swear, I would love that -- but it's just naive. Try to help kids develop? Sure, but should he be taking chances on iffy kids (academically and otherwise) if it helps improve the talent level? Absolutely. I honestly don't see how people miss this fact. Tony Rice had no business getting into ND -- none. The guy is, by all accounts, a terrific guy and a successful professional. Risks are part of this game.

And, by the way, I don't doubt that Marrone believes his own pitch about developing men. Coaches need to buy into this stuff as well to sell it effectively. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, but I doubt Schiano was going home at night going, "This FAMILY stuff is such horses--t!"

I suspect that your situation at home is different than it is for many of the players SU Football recruits.

I also suspect that if your kid were to be recruited as a Division IA football player you would want him to attend a school where the coach would demonstrate concern about his development as a person as well as a player - you would want the coach to make sure that he succeeds and grows academically, athletically and socially.

Marrone tells the story of how after he was drafted, he met with the Dolphins at a very nice Miami restaurant. He realized during dinner that he did not know how to interact with the waiters or his dinner companions - he did not know which fork to use or how to order etc. He promised himself that he would never allow that to happen to one of his players.

I am proud of the personal development program that Coach Marrone runs with Bob Brotzki and with the help of alum Tim Ahern. If I had a son I would want him to participate in the program. I think that the program is a real credit to Syracuse University Football - it helps sell the University - and should cherished, not minimized or devalued.

 

[billsin01]

I suspect that your situation at home is different than it is for many of the players SU Football recruits.

I also suspect that if your kid were to be recruited as a Division IA football player you would want him to attend a school where the coach would demonstrate concern about his development as a person as well as a player - you would want the coach to make sure that he succeeds and grows academically, athletically and socially.

Marrone tells the story of how after he was drafted, he met with the Dolphins at a very nice Miami restaurant. He realized during dinner that he did not know how to interact with the waiters or his dinner companions - he did not know which fork to use or how to order etc. He promised himself that he would never allow that to happen to one of his players.

I am proud of the personal development program that Coach Marrone runs with Bob Brotzki and with the help of alum Tim Ahern. If I had a son I would want him to participate in the program. I think that the program is a real credit to Syracuse University Football - it helps sell the University - and should cherished, not minimized or devalued.

It's all good, I just think the crux of this issue is best boiled down to three points:

-- I just don't think SU is that different from a lot of universities in this respect. Maybe this program is unique, I guess, but I really think a lot of these coaches view themselves -- rightly or wrongly -- as mentors for most of their players. And I just sincerely doubt that the caliber of human being we recruit is that different from other programs or from the kids GRob was bringing in (was he seeking bad apples?). Whether you view it as impossible to judge the character of a kid you barely know through recruiting or whether you view it as simple statistics (any sampling of 100 kids over a 4-year period will have a bunch that fall on each end of the spectrum), the general makeup of the kids in these big-time programs doesn't change that much.

-- "Character development" is often associated with good grades and no legal trouble. As such, universities are often chastised for recruiting players with sketchy academic records and a legal issue or two in their past. They are also criticized anytime anything like this goes on in their programs. I'd argue that those are exactly the kids the school should be reaching out to if they really, really cared about character development. At risk youth are often screwed from Day 1 with terrible home lives, terrible schools and no clear path out of that life. Getting a kid from a great family, with a strong work ethic and a good head on his shoulders is great but not nearly as valuable as giving an opportunity to a kid with a sketchy past, IMO.

-- If we really cared about personal development we'd be encouraging these kids to spend less time on football. Seriously, they should be travelling abroad, doing internships, having on-campus jobs, double-majoring, volunteering in the community, etc. We're not doing that, I can guarantee you.

I think it's cool that we have this goal, but let's be realistic about what this is -- it's a program image. It's important to have an angle to sell to recruits and this is our angle. That doesn't mean it's total BS, but it certainly isn't (and shouldn't be) happening at the expense of winning. Ask Charlie Weatherbie.

 

[rrlbees]

My view on this life program and everything that goes with it is...it is what it is. If it is something that Marrone thinks is good, it's his call. Whether it helps or hurts recruiting or performance on and off the field, it's his call. He has to live with the results because as long as we don't have a criminal program (we don't), wins and loses are all that matter to me in the end.

However, it is still TBD as to if it translates to wins and loses. 2010 was a good start but we fell far backwards in 2011. As to off field responsibility and behavior, only time will tell because so far it has had zero impact at best. Off field issues have been greater the past few years than the previous several or more. But no matter what programs you put in place or how sincere you are to developing good men...things are going to happen. Kids will be kids and athletes will be athletes. No matter the football time frame or which head coach, we have always had off field issues. Always, always, always. Just feels like we have had an uptick of late. Hopefully that resolves itself over time.

 

[CaliCuse]

I suspect that your situation at home is different than it is for many of the players SU Football recruits.

I also suspect that if your kid were to be recruited as a Division IA football player you would want him to attend a school where the coach would demonstrate concern about his development as a person as well as a player - you would want the coach to make sure that he succeeds and grows academically, athletically and socially.

Marrone tells the story of how after he was drafted, he met with the Dolphins at a very nice Miami restaurant. He realized during dinner that he did not know how to interact with the waiters or his dinner companions - he did not know which fork to use or how to order etc. He promised himself that he would never allow that to happen to one of his players.

I am proud of the personal development program that Coach Marrone runs with Bob Brotzki and with the help of alum Tim Ahern. If I had a son I would want him to participate in the program. I think that the program is a real credit to Syracuse University Football - it helps sell the University - and should cherished, not minimized or devalued.

Again I made sure my boys would be comfortable in any restaurant. They are and have been included at many formal functions without disgracing themselves by not knowing the "proper " way to order eat or behave. That Doug wants to enhance that is fine and i'm sure that many have benefited with this instruction. I think it might go too far when some choices are made not to his liking. Life in many ways is a subjective effort by those who live it. I'mnot speaking of morality here. Only method and action.

 

[billsin01]

My view on this life program and everything that goes with it is...it is what it is. If it is something that Marrone thinks is good, it's his call. Whether it helps or hurts recruiting or performance on and off the field, it's his call. He has to live with the results because as long as we don't have a criminal program (we don't), wins and loses are all that matter to me in the end.

However, it is still TBD as to if it translates to wins and loses. 2010 was a good start but we fell far backwards in 2011. As to off field responsibility and behavior, only time will tell because so far it has had zero impact at best. Off field issues have been greater the past few years than the previous several or more. But no matter what programs you put in place or how sincere you are to developing good men...things are going to happen. Kids will be kids and athletes will be athletes. No matter the football time frame or which head coach, we have always had off field issues. Always, always, always. Just feels like we have had an uptick of late. Hopefully that resolves itself over time.

Yeah, you probably articulated this much better than me. I'm not criticizing DM for the program nor whatever rules he wants to enforce. I also think the idea of having true student-athletes and high-character kids is great.

It's just that it's what you said: It is what it is. It's fine, but it certainly doesn't take top priority over winning (realistically) and alums shouldn't worry about deriving pride or embarrassment from these kids' actions off the floor/field.

 

[OrangePA]

It's all good, I just think the crux of this issue is best boiled down to three points:

-- I just don't think SU is that different from a lot of universities in this respect. Maybe this program is unique, I guess, but I really think a lot of these coaches view themselves -- rightly or wrongly -- as mentors for most of their players. And I just sincerely doubt that the caliber of human being we recruit is that different from other programs or from the kids GRob was bringing in (was he seeking bad apples?). Whether you view it as impossible to judge the character of a kid you barely know through recruiting or whether you view it as simple statistics (any sampling of 100 kids over a 4-year period will have a bunch that fall on each end of the spectrum), the general makeup of the kids in these big-time programs doesn't change that much.

-- "Character development" is often associated with good grades and no legal trouble. As such, universities are often chastised for recruiting players with sketchy academic records and a legal issue or two in their past. They are also criticized anytime anything like this goes on in their programs. I'd argue that those are exactly the kids the school should be reaching out to if they really, really cared about character development. At risk youth are often screwed from Day 1 with terrible home lives, terrible schools and no clear path out of that life. Getting a kid from a great family, with a strong work ethic and a good head on his shoulders is great but not nearly as valuable as giving an opportunity to a kid with a sketchy past, IMO.

-- If we really cared about personal development we'd be encouraging these kids to spend less time on football. Seriously, they should be travelling abroad, doing internships, having on-campus jobs, double-majoring, volunteering in the community, etc. We're not doing that, I can guarantee you.

I think it's cool that we have this goal, but let's be realistic about what this is -- it's a program image. It's important to have an angle to sell to recruits and this is our angle. That doesn't mean it's total BS, but it certainly isn't (and shouldn't be) happening at the expense of winning. Ask Charlie Weatherbie.

I urge you to learn more about the program.

I think it would become clear to you that it is far from BS.

And the approach is sincere.

The entire experience at Syracuse University - major college football, academics and personal development are not and need not be mutually exclusive.

In the sense that your post suggests that that is unavoidable I think the notion is not accurate.

And I agree with Marrone that personal development will improve the overall character of the team and in the process will help add wins to the ledger.

We are not the SEC - and I'm very happy about that. We are Syracuse University Football - we are a cut above.

And we continue to get better and better. Be happy.

 

[Cuseregular]

I agree.

I want to see John Kinder play serious minutes this spring.

I'm telling you guys wait until you see Ashton B do his thing. It will be eye opening. Kinder too to a lesser extent.

 

[billsin01]

I urge you to learn more about the program.

I think it would become clear to you that it is far from BS.

And the approach is sincere.

The entire experience at Syracuse University - major college football, academics and personal development are not and need not be mutually exclusive.

In the sense that your post suggests that that is unavoidable I think the notion is not accurate.

And I agree with Marrone that personal development will improve the overall character of the team and in the process will help add wins to the ledger.

We are not the SEC - and I'm very happy about that. We are Syracuse University Football - we are a cut above.

And we continue to get better and better. Be happy.

Are we a cut above the rest of college athletics? eh, I'm not sure. What I do know is 95% of this board hates, abhors and curses any other program (duke, nd, etc) the audacity to make that very claim.

We aren't the SEC ... in any way, shape or form. That is absolutely accurate.

We disagree on a lot with this, largely due to my view on human nature/"character" (I still have no idea how this is defined)/giving at-risk kids a chance (I still say if you want to develop character you should be recruiting nothing but guys who need the most "character development)/and the general makeup of athletes (whom I covered at a newspaper for 8 years and interacted with personally -- lacrosse-wise -- for much of my life).

But at the end of the day I think we can agree on one thing -- whatever the rules, the human development programs, the GPA -- we need to win and if we don't it will be blamed on Marrone (fairly or unfairly). So in that sense you can view character development as extremely relevant and take great pride in it an alum, I can remain pessimistic about big-time athletics programs and not really worry about it, and it's all good. Winning -- the right way or the "wrong" way -- is how DM will be judged. Nature of the beast.