A tale of 2 players

[cuseincincy]

Just for kicks I wanted to compare the statistics of two of the more polarizing players in SU history:

Player A / Player B / Player C
Minutes per game - 35.5 / 37.7 / 35.2
Points per game - 17.7 / 14.6 / 16.0
Shots per game - 14.8 / 12.5 / 14.0
3 Pt shots per game - 7.4 / 7.6 / 8.8
FG % - 41.8 / 37.2 / 35.3
3 Pt FG% - 34.5 / 34.4 / 33.4
Assists per game - 2.0 / 2.3 / 5.9
Rebounds per game - 7.2 / 2.6 / 2.7
Steals per game - 1.3 / 1.9 / 1.9
Class - FR / RS JR / SR

Player A was the teams leading scorer while player B was his team's second leading scorer. Each team was beset with injuries but not at either of the players positions. Each player played on a team with limited offensive weapons and probably felt pressure to do something themselves. I know I've given enough stats that most if not all of you don't have to look up who either player is. What I'd really like to see is those of you that so vehemently defend player B to realize they might want to make sure they are not also one of those who have consistently criticized player A. For those of you that are consistently critical of player B you may think I've given you more evidence that you're right. That was not my intent and I don't necessarily agree with you. Both of these players' teams were better because they were on the team. They wore the Orange and I cheered for them.

Edit: I added Player C who is one of the most beloved SU legends ever. Just saying!

 

[jekelish]

Well, to this day the reason some people remain critical of Player A can be summed up in this way: 1) Dynasty, 2) NIT, 3) Left early

Some people are unfairly bitter.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I'm surprised DG averaged as many assists per game almost as Cooney.

 

[cto]

I could never understand the "hate" for Donte. He was a genuinely nice kid who bled orange ... and who came from a horrible economic/familial background. He gave us a great year (albeit on a pretty bad team) and did everything the coaches asked him to do.

 

[jekelish]

I could never understand the "hate" for Donte. He was a genuinely nice kid who bled orange ... and who came from a horrible economic/familial background. He gave us a great year (albeit on a pretty bad team) and did everything the coaches asked him to do.

Not to mention, he could also do this:

 

[sufandu]

My criticism of Player A while he was here, if it is who I think it is, is that he didn't use his height to score on the interior more. I saw him as not maximizing his potential. I see player B as a guy that has no where near as much potential and therefore is criticized more than he is deserved.

These players don't exist inside vacuums. Productivity looks different against the backdrop of skillset.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I could never understand the "hate" for Donte. He was a genuinely nice kid who bled orange ... and who came from a horrible economic/familial background. He gave us a great year (albeit on a pretty bad team) and did everything the coaches asked him to do.

Well it sounds like you Were closer to him than most of us. That may be a factor. I just knew him as a kid who launched a lot of ill advised threes.

Sorry to detract from your point, which I agree with.

 

[HOFCeluck]

spoiler alert:

A: Donte Greene

B : Trevor Cooney

 

[Cusefan0307]

I could never understand the "hate" for Donte. He was a genuinely nice kid who bled orange ... and who came from a horrible economic/familial background. He gave us a great year (albeit on a pretty bad team) and did everything the coaches asked him to do.

100 Percent agree on Donte. As for Trevor, the book hasn't been written on him yet as much as some people want it to be. A solid end to his junior year and great senior year will swing opinions.

 

[Alsacs]

Greene was a good kid and I was ticked how he was treated when he played the drums during his all-star break after he left his first year back.
Cooney defenders are political action group. The kid plays hard and this year we have no one else but the defending he gets is extreme. McNamara carried the team his Senior year as the primary ball handler and only had Devo to help him in the backcourt.
I wish we had 3 players like Greene, Cooney and Southerland on the court at the same time. To be a good offense you need 3 shooters on the floor at one time.

 

[NineOneSeven]

To recap here- Donte Greene's numbers in that one year were VERY good. I get the FG % wasn't great, but everything else? Come on.

 

[HOFCeluck]

My criticism of Player A while he was here, if it is who I think it is, is that he didn't use his height to score on the interior more. I saw him as not maximizing his potential. I see player B as a guy that has no where near as much potential and therefore is criticized more than he is deserved.

These players don't exist inside vacuums. Productivity looks different against the backdrop of skillset.

A lot of criticism is directed toward his decision making. Launching bad shots with 25 seconds on the clock that will still be there with five. Not passing on the break and just putting junk up there. Stuff like that that I think a guy who has been in the program for four years should get.

 

[cuseincincy]

My criticism of Player A while he was here, if it is who I think it is, is that he didn't use his height to score on the interior more. I saw him as not maximizing his potential. I see player B as a guy that has no where near as much potential and therefore is criticized more than he is deserved.

These players don't exist inside vacuums. Productivity looks different against the backdrop of skillset.

Unfortunately the team had lost Rautins, Devendorf and Josh Wright (I know what loss but...) . The only scholarship guards left were true freshman Scoop and Flynn. Someone had to shoot from the outside.

 

[moqui]

My criticism of Player A while he was here, if it is who I think it is, is that he didn't use his height to score on the interior more. I saw him as not maximizing his potential. I see player B as a guy that has no where near as much potential and therefore is criticized more than he is deserved.

These players don't exist inside vacuums. Productivity looks different against the backdrop of skillset.

you are half right: they don't exist in a vacuum. They have to perform in a team setting within an offense designed by the coaching staff. To fault Donte for not playing on the interior seems ignorant of that. Just because he is 6-10 doesn't change the fact that he was Boeheim's wing forward. After Andy was lost in the summer & Devo went down early, the options for spacing were seriously limited. That squad had Arinze, Ricky, Paul Harris and Ongenaut on the interior. You think we'd have been better off adding one more to the mix?

 

[Brooky03]

Greene was a good kid and I was ticked how he was treated when he played the drums during his all-star break after he left his first year back.
Cooney defenders are political action group. The kid plays hard and this year we have no one else but the defending he gets is extreme. McNamara carried the team his Senior year as the primary ball handler and only had Devo to help him in the backcourt.
I wish we had 3 players like Greene, Cooney and Southerland on the court at the same time. To be a good offense you need 3 shooters on the floor at one time.

The attacks against and defense of Cooney both get extreme, if we're being fair.

 

[sufandu]

A lot of criticism is directed toward his decision making. Launching bad shots with 25 seconds on the clock that will still be there with five. Not passing on the break and just putting junk up there. Stuff like that that I think a guy who has been in the program for four years should get.

I criticize those decisions too, especially his decision making on the break. I've yelled at my TV a number of times this year, "Holy crap man drop it off to the trailer!"

 

[sufandu]

you are half right: they don't exist in a vacuum. They have to perform in a team setting within an offense designed by the coaching staff. To fault Donte for not playing on the interior seems ignorant of that. Just because he is 6-10 doesn't change the fact that he was Boeheim's wing forward. After Andy was lost in the summer & Devo went down early, the options for spacing were seriously limited. That squad had Arinze, Ricky, Paul Harris and Ongenaut on the interior. You think we'd have been better off adding one more to the mix?

There were a number of times that season where I thought he would have been better off taking a midrange shot or taking a guy off of the dribble going toward the basket. I didn't think he mixed that in enough.

Edit: I had to look up some stats. Of the players you mentioned the only legit post scorer was Arinze. Ricky didn't play that much as a freshman, Ongenaut was a garbage points guy, and although Harris was a double figure scorer I don't recall him being a guy that posted up to get his points. So yeah, I think there were some more opportunities to use him closer to the basket. Both Warrick and Melo posted up when they were on the floor together. AO and Jackson worked the post together during AO's senior year. Maybe he could've been used in more high/low situations with AO.

 

[sufandu]

Unfortunately the team had lost Rautins, Devendorf and Josh Wright (I know what loss but...) . The only scholarship guards left were true freshman Scoop and Flynn. Someone had to shoot from the outside.

Sure, but at his height and with his ball handling he could've also worked to get some easier shots closer to the basket. I'm saying he should've abandoned the three. That would be silly. But I thought he settled for it sometimes when a better shot was available.

 

[Alsacs]

The attacks against and defense of Cooney both get extreme, if we're being fair.

The defenders make legit critcism and the stupid not D-1 criticism all appear like it is the same. I feel this year we have no other option but the fact we have no other option is pretty sad.
I just hope we play well the rest of the year and come back with more
Depth next year.

 

[Jasoncuse]

McNamara was exactly what Cooney is now (a chucker), but with the ball in his hands more often. Nobody got on him for shooting so much and being a mediocre shooter like people do with Cooney.

 

[two3zone]

I'm wondering the % of Cooney threads within the past three years that had the same defense defending him with the same argument that's against him. If we're going to talk numbers let's do something different.

% of Player A vs B threads against Cooney is exactly like "insert SU guard name here".

Can we merge these topics? There's like 10 of them in the past 4 days.

 

[Ghost]

I could never understand the "hate" for Donte. He was a genuinely nice kid who bled orange ... and who came from a horrible economic/familial background. He gave us a great year (albeit on a pretty bad team) and did everything the coaches asked him to do.

Thank you! I really liked that kid - never understood the vitriol for him when he was leaving. It seemed to go beyond what I would have expected.

Kid put up some sick numbers for a true Frosh - and was fun to watch. Even if he wouldn't post up. He posted up one game against G'Town a few times and scored or something along those lines and I remember the board exploding in joy. And then saying he was a dummy for not doing it more. Oh well. lol

 

[Ghost]

McNamara was exactly what Cooney is now (a chucker), but with the ball in his hands more often. Nobody got on him for shooting so much and being a mediocre shooter like people do with Cooney.

Not to to turn this into a debate, but I think McNamara did a lot more than just chuck - which is why the heat was off of him a bit more.

I mean, the little bastard even equals Cooney in rebounds per game. He could also create for others. If Cooney had a better secondary skill set it would tone down the heat on him a bit. It sucks for him - truly. It's not like he's refusing to do something - or is just chucking for the sake of it. Overall, GMac just wasn't as limited - plus the kid repeatedly built up loyalty with his heroics. That never hurts!!!

 

[SoBeCuse]

Pretty sure Donte was posting up people and hitting mid baseline jumpers 2H of the season on. He had a terrific season.

 

[RF2044]

Pretty sure Donte was posting up people and hitting mid baseline jumpers 2H of the season on. He had a terrific season.

Not to mention, he was a FROSH. Heaven forbid he wasn't a finished product. He probably would have improved as an inside player / rebounder [and I think he was around 7.6 per game on the glass, which really is closing in on being an upper echelon rebounder--especially for a skinny frosh] as a function of increased physical development had he come back.