Am I the only one here that thinks

[jordoo]

We keep recruiting elite talent at guards and therefore don't have many stay 4 (or 5) years. Fair amount are 2 and done. In the last decade we've had only 4 gaurds use up their eligability; those being Triche this year ('09 recruit), Scoop ('07), Rautins ('05), McNamara ('02). Cooney is our next shot at a 4 or 5 year player as a 2011 recruit. In the meantime we've lost MCW ('11), Waiters ('10), Flynn ('07), and Devo ('05) early. The rest of our guard recruits either flamed out or never made it to campus (Wright, Mayben).

Seems this will be a continued issue for the forseeable future but one SU and the other big boys will have to learn to deal with and account for. Perhaps Cooney was more of a BMK type recruit as far as expecting 4 years while filling in the pieces around him?

I have fantasies of Ennis being a 4 year player for us, I know they are foolish but he doesn't scream NBA athlete when you watch him so I delude myself and say he will stay 4 years. LOL

 

[ImperialOrange]

If Grant doesn't blow up and go pro next year, we will have an elite front line in 2014-15, with DC (JR) and Rak (SR) at center (I'd be damned surprised if either one of them blow up next year), McCullough, Grant, Roberson and BJ at the forwards. That is a sick group of talent up front.

Then add in Silent G as a SR at 2G, Soph Ennis at the point, JR Cooney as backup shooting guard and Soph Patterson as the defensive guard who can slash and score a bit from outside. Plus we will probably add another elite level guard to that freshman class.

The year after next really looks like another Final Four caliber team.

Kaleb Joseph hopefully

 

[OttoinGrotto]

For those who feel that Cooney will start over G next year do you also think that if G had been an option this year JB wouldn't have gone to him? We had no other option, Cooney hustled played hard and knew the defense pretty well. But you must be careful to over estimate the successes he did have when as a fan you were desperate for a viable third guard. We tenf d to overlook the mistakes and highlight the few successes in that type of situation. Connery struggled mightily on the offensive end and what success he did have was because teams really didn't worry about him.

I think this is well stated, and fair. I think Cooney's best days are ahead of him. It's hard to peg it - on the one hand, he's a better all around player than expected. On the other, the one thing he was really supposed to be able to do well... well, he kinda sucked at it. How do you evaluate that? Is the mug half full of orange juice, or half empty?

For my money, I think Gbinije is going to win the job at the 2, and Cooney will be a viable backup combo guard giving us somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20 minutes a game with 5 or 6 ppg.

 

[realorange]

In JBs system it's really pretty simple. If you play good defense you will get minutes. Cooney plays good defense. Cooney knows the system. Cooney is a capable ball handler. Cooney will likely improve his shot. Therefore Cooney starts.
Incoming freshman don't know the system. They will struggle to learn the zone. They will not start.
Ennis starts as a freshman mainly because he is the only good choice for a PG.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

In JBs system it's really pretty simple. If you play good defense you will get minutes. Cooney plays good defense. Cooney knows the system. Cooney is a capable ball handler. Cooney will likely improve his shot. Therefore Cooney starts.
Incoming freshman don't know the system. They will struggle to learn the zone. They will not start.
Ennis starts as a freshman mainly because he is the only good choice for a PG.

Whoa, whoa! Huge jump there from

play good defense = get minutes

to

Cooney = defense, system, ball handler, improved shot = start

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that I think he has a much more uphill battle to earn it.

 

[Gabjon]

No, McCullough doesn't play like Southerland, IMO. He's not a stand-still jump shooter from 3. McCullough has a much more well-rounded game, but not quite as a good an outside shot.

We will see but for a guy 6-10 he doesn't like to mix it up inside too much.

 

[jordoo]

We will see but for a guy 6-10 he doesn't like to mix it up inside too much.

He's not a banger to this point that is true, but he isn't know as "The Hammer" for nothing. He goes hard when he has a lane and is either throwing it down, gettinmg FT's or both.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We will see but for a guy 6-10 he doesn't like to mix it up inside too much.

That's why I compare him to Charles Smith. Great athleticism, very fluid, runs well, has a nice looking outside shot. But definitely could be tougher.

 

[jordoo]

In JBs system it's really pretty simple. If you play good defense you will get minutes. Cooney plays good defense. Cooney knows the system. Cooney is a capable ball handler. Cooney will likely improve his shot. Therefore Cooney starts.
Incoming freshman don't know the system. They will struggle to learn the zone. They will not start.
Ennis starts as a freshman mainly because he is the only good choice for a PG.

So if G playes defense which he has practiced for a year, why wouldn't he start over Cooney. I think people are missing the very clear thing that we needed a 3rd guard and Cooney the only option in that role struggled to get minutes when he wasn't in competition with anyone. I like Cooney, think he will get better and contribute as a rotational role player at some point and possibly a starter toward the end of his career. Andy in his second season had a bigger impact as a bench guard than Cooney did in his. Andy then took an injury redshirt qand came back as a big bench contributor in his 4th year, a starter in his 5th year and wound up getting drafted. Trevor wasn't going to play as a freshman so he redshirted. He had a golden opertunity last season to snag as many as 20min a game but he struggled and will not have the same uncontested opertunity this coming season. I think he is a hard worker and will improve, I hope and expect that his shot will start falling but I see him behind G at the two and in competition with Ron and BJ for backup minutes. He may win that competition and he may not but either way he could still wind up starting and having a huge impact as a senior like Andy did.

I just feel like anybody thinking that JB is going to hand Trevor the starting job or even 1st guard off the bench before seeing Ron and BJ didn't look objectively at what he did and did not do this season on the court. I'm not knocking the kid. I like him and I'm rooting for him.

 

[Gabjon]

He's not a banger to this point that is true, but he isn't know as "The Hammer" for nothing. He goes hard when he has a lane and is either throwing it down, gettinmg FT's or both.

Let's see how that translates. The lane will not be as open in college ball

 

[Gabjon]

That's why I compare him to Charles Smith. Great athleticism, very fluid, runs well, has a nice looking outside shot. But definitely could be tougher.

I agree

 

[moqui]

his shooting was obviously a tremendous disappointment, but I liked everything else I saw from Cooney this year. I thought we were getting a shooter who would struggle keeping up with high level D1 athletes at other aspects of the game, turns out we got just the opposite (except that he does have great form and should be a good shooter eventually)

 

[SoBristol]

his shooting was obviously a tremendous disappointment, but I liked everything else I saw from Cooney this year. I thought we were getting a shooter who would struggle keeping up with high level D1 athletes at other aspects of the game, turns out we got just the opposite (except that he does have great form and should be a good shooter eventually)

Maybe --
Cooney is our best shooter in warm-ups, but it doesn't translate yet in games. Why not? He rushes his shots. He takes too many shots coming off a curl without squaring up. He takes too many difficult 3-point shots, and not enough pull-up 10 ft shots.
I don't know whether he can improve, to change his shot selection, to calm down on the court. He wasn't a first year player -- he took his red-shirt, and worked in practice against good competition. He didn't make great strides over the course of this season. He isn't going to change his body (unlike, say, Andy Rautins, who got better as he added muscle year to year).
I don't buy the suggestion that he get more minutes (much less starts) just because he is a veteran. He has to improve, or he loses out to Gbinije (almost certain) or to Patterson (who already had a PG year, and could easily compete for #3 guard role).

 

[Oakland]

JB doesn't know who his "2" guard will be and therefore none of us do, either. He's got plenty of options so the position won't be won by default. I'll just say that if Cooney doesn't show any more than we saw this year, he's not going to win the competition.

 

[Gabjon]

his shooting was obviously a tremendous disappointment, but I liked everything else I saw from Cooney this year. I thought we were getting a shooter who would struggle keeping up with high level D1 athletes at other aspects of the game, turns out we got just the opposite (except that he does have great form and should be a good shooter eventually)

If you lined up all the scholarship players from this year's team on the baseline and had them sprint the court Cooney may beat DC2 but that is about it. I think he is a D1 athlete, but high level D1 athlete I don't think so. Therefore his basketball skill needs to be clearly better than the guy who is a better athlete. For example I believe he is on pair with Devo as a athlete (I think Devo was faster but Cooney has more hops) but Devo is by far a more skilled basketball player.

I think Cooney needs to play pick-up basketball as much as possible! He has no deception in his game and unless a player is lighting fast he needs to deceive defenders to get open.

 

[OttoMets]

Maybe --
Cooney is our best shooter in warm-ups, but it doesn't translate yet in games. Why not? He rushes his shots. He takes too many shots coming off a curl without squaring up. He takes too many difficult 3-point shots, and not enough pull-up 10 ft shots.
I don't know whether he can improve, to change his shot selection, to calm down on the court.


... He didn't make great strides over the course of this season. He isn't going to change his body (unlike, say, Andy Rautins, who got better as he added muscle year to year).
I don't buy the suggestion that he get more minutes (much less starts) just because he is a veteran. He has to improve, or he loses out to Gbinije (almost certain) or to Patterson (who already had a PG year, and could easily compete for #3 guard role).

That first segment of text is so completely correct -- both in terms of observation and reasoning.

Then the second bit...not so much. Maybe there can be some quibble about "great strides" as far the degree to which he improved. Did he improve? I think so.

More minutes for a veteran? Unless Cooney has some Josh Wright-level difficulties, yeah. He's getting more minutes than any freshman off-guard, guaranteed. That's how it's been for 95% of the time that Boeheim's been at Syracuse, and he's only gotten more serious about that since we've exclusively played zone. Freshman guards are some degree of dreadful at the top of the zone; we're certainly starting one of them, and Boeheim won't want another up there.

Gbinije's a different story, but we'll have to see some combination of him overachieving and Cooney underachieving for Cooney to get beat out for that spot.

Crazy thread; didn't mean to get carried away here -- mainly good points, but don't agree with the last bit.

 

[SUGIANT]

Wow, not the Cooney I saw. I tend to agree with the OP, that Cooney as the third guard is no lock.

But with the dearth of outside 3 pt shooting, I have to give BJ a punchers chance. I think BJ's form is ahead of Buss. If Cooney continues to wilt under pressure, JB is going to have a tough decision on when to pull the plug. Then kind of like Dirty over Grant, BJ may be needed over Buss.

When will people realize that we're dealing wth kids here and what yous ee this year means about nothing for what you will see next year. These kids don;t stop imporving during the off season, they work with the coaches identify areas to improve and work hard to get to where they need to be. Look at the difference between Southerland his freshman year and this year. Could you tell in his JR year he would be as improved as he was this year. Could you see that MCW was going to be as good as he was this year based on last year? Lets quit labeling kids as if their stuck where they are and will never hold up to already inflated expectations. It's just ridiculous.

 

[baggerbob]

Jimmy hasn't taken many transfers, and when he does they usually start, so unless Cooney shows remarkable improvement all- around, he will be coming off the bench.

 

[anomander]

When will people realize that we're dealing wth kids here and what yous ee this year means about nothing for what you will see next year. These kids don;t stop imporving during the off season, they work with the coaches identify areas to improve and work hard to get to where they need to be. Look at the difference between Southerland his freshman year and this year. Could you tell in his JR year he would be as improved as he was this year. Could you see that MCW was going to be as good as he was this year based on last year? Lets quit labeling kids as if their stuck where they are and will never hold up to already inflated expectations. It's just ridiculous.

As far as asking if you people thought mcw would be this good based off last year the answer from many would be yes. We saw those glimpses last year , and the kid was a McDonalds all American. You could see it in mcw, TC didn't leave that impression, that's for sure

 

[tee1222]

If Cooney blows up for 20+ in a game against a decent team (he had 15 against Monmouth, meh), his confidence will build. We have seen some shots go in, albeit infrequently. But let's face it, both lovers and haters:
He can shoot the ball; he has to relax and know the shots will fall in before they come out of his hand.

I understand why everyone is rough on him. Disappointed myself, but no way am I giving up on his potential and I still believe he shoots his way out of this. But look at this. I believe that this game was a catalyst for a bigger and better run.

When we were down by 5 against GTown, he got us within 3. When we were tied, he took us up by 3. We were tied late, but never played from behind from that point forward.

He might not end up starting, but we still need this guy to keep the defense honest at the very least. I expect more still.

 

[longtimefan]

Playing the zone isn't rocket science.

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But playing it well is not easy.

 

[Gabjon]

But playing it well is not easy.

Agreed but which is the easiest area of the zone to learn? I would say center is the hardest followed by forward and the easiest is guard. We played arguably the best zone in school history and Cooney played less than 5 minutes a game. His offensive has to improve. I'm not saying it won't but I'm saying it has a long way to go. Time will tell

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[IthacaMatt]

Agreed but which is the easiest area of the zone to learn? I would say center is the hardest followed by forward and the easiest is guard. We played arguably the best zone in school history and Cooney played less than 5 minutes a game. His offensive has to improve. I'm not saying it won't but I'm saying it has a long way to go. Time will tell

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I think the corners are easier than either center, which is the hardest spot, or the guard spots, where you are caught between guarding 3 point shooters, pinching down on the foul line entry pass, plus you have to deal with going over or under picks, and if you're on the weakside, you can't follow the ball too much and have to beware of the cross court skip pass.

Corners generally push out on the 3 point shooter, retreat against corner shooters, or have to rush in to the low block ("short corner") in the event of an entry pass into the foul line area. Basically there are 3 primary covers for the corner forwards. I think the guards have more to do than that.

 

[jordoo]

The forward position has gotten harder to play over the last 4-5 years because JB is expecting a lot more. The center spot is a bit complicated but its really scouting report defense for FT-line guys and verbal comunication. Our best defenses had good comunicaters or shot blockers in the middle. One of the main reasons we were so much better on D down the stretch with Baye rather than Rak was that he was constantaly telling the forwards where guys were and alerting the guards to overloads. Its important in our system. The guard spot has gotten easier to play IMO. We have gone to length and used to to attack the passing lanes. They still have to make it hard to pass to the FT line, get to shooters at teh weakside FT-line extended when the ball is swung around and work very hard on screens and moving screensbut the system now is designed for them to gamble and be covered by the wings.

 

[Gabjon]

I think the corners are easier than either center, which is the hardest spot, or the guard spots, where you are caught between guarding 3 point shooters, pinching down on the foul line entry pass, plus you have to deal with going over or under picks, and if you're on the weakside, you can't follow the ball too much and have to beware of the cross court skip pass.

Corners generally push out on the 3 point shooter, retreat against corner shooters, or have to rush in to the low block ("short corner") in the event of an entry pass into the foul line area. Basically there are 3 primary covers for the corner forwards. I think the guards have more to do than that.

But the Forwards have primary rebounding responsibility (weak side) and they are often banging with the other team's center so it's not just coverage it's physical play as well.