And so it begings...one whisper leads to several more in time | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

And so it begings...one whisper leads to several more in time

IthacaMatt

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That is why they are whispers!


We lived with it for years in the Big East for hoops. The tops teams always had the toughest schedule and played each other the most. It's all about providing the product for ESPN. The thing about the unbalanced schedule is that it gave title shots to some mid-level teams most every year, because they had a less demanding conference schedule. That's good from a fan perspective, and if they did this for ACC football, we would be that kind of beneficiary.
 

omniorange

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It'll only happen if the NCAA rules are amended.

Things also work well if/when ND+1 join. Form 4-team pods. With a 9-game schedule you play the non-pod members twice every four years with a 9-game schedule. With ND games in the 9-game fold, the opposition from FSU & Co. disappears. Of course, if the NCAA rules are changed then pods aren't necessary... 3-fixed and 6-flex games yield the same result.

If they change, then 15 team conferences become doable. So if ND ever did decide to join, it could be ND only and assuming a 9 game schedule at that point the ACC could do 4 fixed opponents and the 10 remaining teams divided up 5/5 alternating every other year or 5 teams for two years and then the other 5 for two years.

Cheers,
Neil
 

BlazeOrange

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We lived with it for years in the Big East for hoops. The tops teams always had the toughest schedule and played each other the most. It's all about providing the product for ESPN. The thing about the unbalanced schedule is that it gave title shots to some mid-level teams most every year, because they had a less demanding conference schedule. That's good from a fan perspective, and if they did this for ACC football, we would be that kind of beneficiary.
It also limits exposure in the conference championship game: If you have a dominant (i.e., national champion contender) team in the top tier, they'll more likely play the top "other" team in the championship, assuming that they swept the name brand group and the other name brand teams played each other about even. The top team would then match up with a team they are less likely to be upset by and ruin the conferences hopes to qualify for the playoffs.

It won't always work out that way - there will often be two elite teams that will rematch, etc. - but it tilts the odds a little bit. And the conference championship game wont' necessarily be a coronation, as the smaller market teams could be legit contenders in their own rights during some years.
 

Chris02M

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I like my 4 permanent rivals better than wake forest's:


BC: Syracuse, Miami, Pittsburgh, Wake Forest
Syracuse: Boston College, Pittsburgh, Virginia, Louisville
Pittsburgh: Louisville, Syracuse, Boston College, Miami
Louisville: Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, Syracuse
Virginia: Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Syracuse, Florida State
Virginia Tech: Virginia, Louisville, Miami, Clemson
Miami: Florida State, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh
Florida State: Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Virginia
Clemson: Georgia Tech, NC State, Florida State, Virginia Tech
Georgia Tech: Clemson, Florida State, Duke, North Carolina
Duke: North Carolina, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, NC State
North Carolina: Duke, Virginia, NC State, Georgia Tech
NC State: Wake Forest, Clemson, North Carolina, Duke
Wake: NC State, Duke, Louisville, Boston College
 

IthacaBarrel

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As a sax player I will neither confirm nor deny the fact that I may have learned how to play 'Careless Whisper'.

Or 'Who Can It Be Now'.

80's were brutal.
 

Millhouse

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As a sax player I will neither confirm nor deny the fact that I may have learned how to play 'Careless Whisper'.

Or 'Who Can It Be Now'.
colin hay (who can it be now guy) has some good solo stuff. live stuff on youtube is spotty because he has a yoko wife who likes to do hippie interpretive dance in between backup vocals - skip those
 

Scooch

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colin hay (who can it be now guy) has some good solo stuff. live stuff on youtube is spotty because he has a yoko wife who likes to do hippie interpretive dance in between backup vocals - skip those

Agreed, I actually have some of his stuff downloaded. Discovered his acoustic solo career after he was on 'Scrubs' years ago. Crazy world.
 

CousCuse

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It'll only happen if the NCAA rules are amended.

Things also work well if/when ND+1 join. Form 4-team pods. With a 9-game schedule you play the non-pod members twice every four years with a 9-game schedule. With ND games in the 9-game fold, the opposition from FSU & Co. disappears. Of course, if the NCAA rules are changed then pods aren't necessary... 3-fixed and 6-flex games yield the same result.
I think the pods would be better because a banner could be awarded to the winner of each pod , more bling to put on the walls. Or each pod could have a trophy that they display and is in play each year.
 

Lou_C

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I like my 4 permanent rivals better than wake forest's:


BC: Syracuse, Miami, Pittsburgh, Wake Forest
Syracuse: Boston College, Pittsburgh, Virginia, Louisville
Pittsburgh: Louisville, Syracuse, Boston College, Miami
Louisville: Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, Syracuse
Virginia: Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Syracuse, Florida State
Virginia Tech: Virginia, Louisville, Miami, Clemson
Miami: Florida State, Boston College, Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh
Florida State: Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson, Virginia
Clemson: Georgia Tech, NC State, Florida State, Virginia Tech
Georgia Tech: Clemson, Florida State, Duke, North Carolina
Duke: North Carolina, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech, NC State
North Carolina: Duke, Virginia, NC State, Georgia Tech
NC State: Wake Forest, Clemson, North Carolina, Duke
Wake: NC State, Duke, Louisville, Boston College

Three permanent opponents is better, keep eight games + ND.

BC: Syracuse, Miami, Virginia

Syracuse: Boston College, Louisville, Pittsburgh

Pittsburgh: Louisville, Miami, Syracuse

Louisville: Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Virginia Tech

Virginia: Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Boston College

Virginia Tech: Virginia, Wake Forest, Louisville

Miami: Florida State, Pitt, Boston College

Florida State: Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson

Clemson: Georgia Tech, NC State, Florida State

Georgia Tech: Clemson, Florida State, Duke

Duke: North Carolina, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech

North Carolina: Duke, Virginia, NC State

NC State: Wake Forest, Clemson, North Carolina

Wake: NC State, Duke, Virginia Tech
 

adbern7

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The dealbreaker on a 9-game conference sked is the strong ACC football schools wanting 7 home games/year. They need that for ticket gate sales and alumni support. With an 8-game conference season, they get 4 ACC home games, and of the 4 OOC games any given season, two are at home vs. non BCS schools (the weak schools need to go on the road, they can't demand home-and-homes), one is at home vs. an OOC BCS school, and one is on the road/neutral vs. an OOC BCS school for a total of 12 games. If you go to 9 ACC games, then every other year FSU/Clemson will have to choose between dropping an easy win+ticket sales of a weak opponent or dropping a solid BCS OOC opponent and hurting SOS/visibility. Throw in a year when you have a road game @ND, at you could be looking at only 5 ACC home games + 1 weak home game.
Calculations like above, not "generating the best matchups" is what's going to drive any changes in divisions or scheduling.
 

HtownOrange

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If we assume we have permanent rivals, Syracuse needs one of FSU, Miami or Clemson. Possibly GATech. The more we play in the south, the easier it will be to recruit the area.

I prefer:

FSU
Pitt
BC/Louisville

I believe FSU and Clemson are more likely to remain perennial powers whereas Miami is more likely to have real highs and real lows.

Sticking SU with three other northern schools is too regional. Very good for travel but two of the three is sufficient. If PSU or ND were in the mix, they would suffice but that is not available. BC Pitt and Louisville are peer schools but not top tier and do not offer enough exposure to southern recruits. I prefer Pitt of the three because of our long history. I like Louisville (Midwest) for recruiting over BC but will more likely need to take one for the ACC Team and play BC as their nearest opponent.

I don't see VATech as a perennial power school nor do I believe our history is that long that trading FSU, Clemson or Miami would be worth it. Virginia does not put out the number of recruits that Fl/GA does so UVA and VATech are less valuable for exposure purposes.

GATech is a good team but not a consistent power. How's er, they offer exposure to Georgia kids so this is s very good point to consider if we cannot have FSU, Clemson or Miami.

There is little value in a NC team as a permanent game.
 

Chris02M

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Three permanent opponents is better, keep eight games + ND.

BC: Syracuse, Miami, Virginia

Syracuse: Boston College, Louisville, Pittsburgh

Pittsburgh: Louisville, Miami, Syracuse

Louisville: Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Virginia Tech

Virginia: Virginia Tech, North Carolina, Boston College

Virginia Tech: Virginia, Wake Forest, Louisville

Miami: Florida State, Pitt, Boston College

Florida State: Miami, Georgia Tech, Clemson

Clemson: Georgia Tech, NC State, Florida State

Georgia Tech: Clemson, Florida State, Duke

Duke: North Carolina, Wake Forest, Georgia Tech

North Carolina: Duke, Virginia, NC State

NC State: Wake Forest, Clemson, North Carolina

Wake: NC State, Duke, Virginia Tech


I have a list for 3 perm rivals that is pretty close to yours:

BC: Syr, Pit, Mia
Pitt: Lou, BC, Syr
Syr: BC, Lou, Pitt
Lou: Pit, Syr, VT
FSU: Mia,GT, Clem
Mia: FSU,VT, BC
VT: Virg, Mia, Lou
Virg: VT, UNC, Wake
Clem: GT, NC st, FSU
GT: Clem, FSU, Duke
Duke: UNC, Wake, GT
UNC: Duke,Virg, NC st
NC St: Wake, Clem, UNC
Wake: NC st, Duke, Virg
 

Chris02M

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If we assume we have permanent rivals, Syracuse needs one of FSU, Miami or Clemson. Possibly GATech. The more we play in the south, the easier it will be to recruit the area.

I prefer:

FSU
Pitt
BC/Louisville

I believe FSU and Clemson are more likely to remain perennial powers whereas Miami is more likely to have real highs and real lows.

Sticking SU with three other northern schools is too regional. Very good for travel but two of the three is sufficient. If PSU or ND were in the mix, they would suffice but that is not available. BC Pitt and Louisville are peer schools but not top tier and do not offer enough exposure to southern recruits. I prefer Pitt of the three because of our long history. I like Louisville (Midwest) for recruiting over BC but will more likely need to take one for the ACC Team and play BC as their nearest opponent.

I don't see VATech as a perennial power school nor do I believe our history is that long that trading FSU, Clemson or Miami would be worth it. Virginia does not put out the number of recruits that Fl/GA does so UVA and VATech are less valuable for exposure purposes.

GATech is a good team but not a consistent power. How's er, they offer exposure to Georgia kids so this is s very good point to consider if we cannot have FSU, Clemson or Miami.

There is little value in a NC team as a permanent game.


we will get 3 northern schools if there are only 3 permanent rivals 95% sure only chance is Miami. With 3 perm rivals though we would play Miami and florida state in 1 out of 4 years with the other at home. Pit and BC are locks if 3 perm rivals last one is Louisville or someone else
 

Scooch

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If we assume we have permanent rivals, Syracuse needs one of FSU, Miami or Clemson. Possibly GATech. The more we play in the south, the easier it will be to recruit the area.

I doubt any of those schools will want SU on their schedule annually if they have the choice. BC and Pitt are locks for us, with the 3rd being a mid-atlantic school I'm guessing.

If the conference were to adopt the 3 permanent/5 rotational model (which is ideal, IMHO) we'll be playing those 4 schools you mention twice every 4 years. That's plenty for recruiting purposes.
 

HtownOrange

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we will get 3 northern schools if there are only 3 permanent rivals 95% sure only chance is Miami. With 3 perm rivals though we would play Miami and florida state in 1 out of 4 years with the other at home. Pit and BC are locks if 3 perm rivals last one is Louisville or someone else
I agree that most of the southern schools will want the four northern schools to play each other but it would be a major error. Your solution is easier up front but we will all suffer problems later because the football power is concentrated in the south.

Each northern school should get a southern school to keep as little N/S and BE/ACC analogy from creeping in as well as additional exposure for southern kids. The four northern most and four southern most teams should have one permanent opponent in the opposing region. The six in the middle can mix it up amongst themselves however they like. This also allows FSU to keep Miami and either Clemson or GATech on as permanent opponents while still playing the other 2 of 4 years.

Keeping all things super regional will only work to keep the ACC fractionalized with the Carolina four plus UVA retaining too much power/influence. Keeping the northern schhols aligned with the southern schools keeps football the primary focus of the conference. It also makes recruiting in the south much easierfor football and in the north for hoops. Both sports benefit.

If they want to mix in the central teams the keep it 1 northern team, 1 central team and 1 southern team as permanent opponents.

No answer is perfect but keeping it all close to home will essentially keep the northern schools down as far as competiting for championships. The SOS would be forever skewed down as well as perception and recruiting will be more difficult. We would play in FL twice in four years, GA and SC once each in four years.
 

HtownOrange

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I doubt any of those schools will want SU on their schedule annually if they have the choice. BC and Pitt are locks for us, with the 3rd being a mid-atlantic school I'm guessing.

If the conference were to adopt the 3 permanent/5 rotational model (which is ideal, IMHO) we'll be playing those 4 schools you mention twice every 4 years. That's plenty for recruiting purposes.
I agree the southern schools probably will not want it. I do think this what we end up with. However, I disagree it is sufficient and I see it as short sighted, eventually doing more harm to the conference than addressing real issues up front. I think this may be one of DG's reasons to mix things up. Market exposure is important in the big cities as well as the recruit in territories.

We simply disagree on this point. Regardless, we remain loyal Orange fans either way.
 

BlazeOrange

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I doubt any of those schools will want SU on their schedule annually if they have the choice. BC and Pitt are locks for us, with the 3rd being a mid-atlantic school I'm guessing.

I agree the southern schools probably will not want it. I do think this what we end up with. However, I disagree it is sufficient and I see it as short sighted, eventually doing more harm to the conference than addressing real issues up front.

Agree with both - the conference won't be solid if the prior teams don't want to play the new ones that THEY invited in.

Maybe a mini-pod approach would work once the conference adds one more team (ND would be nice, but more likely a team that the Irish have a hand in selecting as suitable future mates). Something like:

1: Syr, Pit, BC
2: FSU,Mia,GT
3: UNC,Duke,Virg
4: Clem, NC St, Wake
5: VT, Lou, ____

Play your pod each season (2 games) and two other pods (6 games) for an 8-game conference season. Top two records in championship (assuming this flies with NCAA). Keeps an 8 game schedule and key rivalries intact, but still gets everyone through all opponents quicker. Ideally, you'd separate Miami and FSU to ensure a Florida game every year (or 4 out of 5 at worst), but I don't see that happening.

It isn't perfect, but could be a suitable temporary solution if the ACC wants to lock a new team down before ND is ready to commit.
 

RCDICK44

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we will get 3 northern schools if there are only 3 permanent rivals 95% sure only chance is Miami. With 3 perm rivals though we would play Miami and florida state in 1 out of 4 years with the other at home. Pit and BC are locks if 3 perm rivals last one is Louisville or someone else
If we assume we have permanent rivals, Syracuse needs one of FSU, Miami or Clemson. Possibly GATech. The more we play in the south, the easier it will be to recruit the area.

I prefer:

FSU
Pitt
BC/Louisville

I believe FSU and Clemson are more likely to remain perennial powers whereas Miami is more likely to have real highs and real lows.

Sticking SU with three other northern schools is too regional. Very good for travel but two of the three is sufficient. If PSU or ND were in the mix, they would suffice but that is not available. BC Pitt and Louisville are peer schools but not top tier and do not offer enough exposure to southern recruits. I prefer Pitt of the three because of our long history. I like Louisville (Midwest) for recruiting over BC but will more likely need to take one for the ACC Team and play BC as their nearest opponent.

I don't see VATech as a perennial power school nor do I believe our history is that long that trading FSU, Clemson or Miami would be worth it. Virginia does not put out the number of recruits that Fl/GA does so UVA and VATech are less valuable for exposure purposes.

GATech is a good team but not a consistent power. How's er, they offer exposure to Georgia kids so this is s very good point to consider if we cannot have FSU, Clemson or Miami.

There is little value in a NC team as a permanent game.
 

RCDICK44

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If we assume we have permanent rivals, Syracuse needs one of FSU, Miami or Clemson. Possibly GATech. The more we play in the south, the easier it will be to recruit the area.

I prefer:

FSU
Pitt
BC/Louisville

I believe FSU and Clemson are more likely to remain perennial powers whereas Miami is more likely to have real highs and real lows.

Sticking SU with three other northern schools is too regional. Very good for travel but two of the three is sufficient. If PSU or ND were in the mix, they would suffice but that is not available. BC Pitt and Louisville are peer schools but not top tier and do not offer enough exposure to southern recruits. I prefer Pitt of the three because of our long history. I like Louisville (Midwest) for recruiting over BC but will more likely need to take one for the ACC Team and play BC as their nearest opponent.

I don't see VATech as a perennial power school nor do I believe our history is that long that trading FSU, Clemson or Miami would be worth it. Virginia does not put out the number of recruits that Fl/GA does so UVA and VATech are less valuable for exposure purposes.

GATech is a good team but not a consistent power. How's er, they offer exposure to Georgia kids so this is s very good point to consider if we cannot have FSU, Clemson or Miami.

There is little value in a NC team as a permanent game.


I agree that it's mandatory that we play southern schools every year to maintain our recruiting capabilities in the south.We have to have that southern exposure so recruits will become familiar to our system and they will want to be able to play in front of their families.
 

Scooch

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Not to be a jerk, but what the hell are you guys talking about? We're in a conference where 11 of the 14 teams are in the south. No matter what 75% of our schedule every single year will be against southern teams. No matter what we will always be playing a Florida team every year.

This has turned into the most confusing thread ever.
 

HtownOrange

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Not to be a jerk, but what the hell are you guys talking about? We're in a conference where 11 of the 14 teams are in the south. No matter what 75% of our schedule every single year will be against southern teams. No matter what we will always be playing a Florida team every year

This has turned into the most confusing thread ever.

Numerically you are correct but Virginia and North Carolina are not prime recruiting grounds for Syracuse. GA and FL are prime recruiting grounds. The more games in those areas and against those teams means better exposure.

To your point, playing USF annually did not help much. If we assume it is because USF doesn't have the same cache as Miami and FSU, the same applies the N. Carolina and VA schools.

We simply disagree on the value of playing the VA and NC teams. I want as high a percentage of games against the four southernmost teams we can get.
 

Millhouse

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when i have trouble understanding something, i find it helpful to paraphrase and get corrected

things are happening. some people are whispering about things that are happening. sometimes a whisper is a shout. other times it's a whisper. shouts can be whispers. shouts can be loud. these are all good things. also , read between the lines. SYRACUSE. also ninjas
 

HtownOrange

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when i have trouble understanding something, i find it helpful to paraphrase and get corrected

things are happening. some people are whispering about things that are happening. sometimes a whisper is a shout. other times it's a whisper. shouts can be whispers. shouts can be loud. these are all good things. also , read between the lines. SYRACUSE. also ninjas
(Said in a quiet tone) "Exactly! Change is imminent unless it doesn't happen."
 

TexanMark

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We had this discussion over at csnbbs.com
http://csnbbs.com/thread-675325.html

My thoughts:

Syracuse

1. BC
2. Pitt

3. Miami
4. Louisville, GTech, UVA or VTech

For me the first two are no-brainers and any of the others listed (#4)would be fine for #3. Louisville is a close third to Miami...but Miami gets the nod for recruiting and Cuse fan base in S FL.

IMHO, Miami would be the most likely to go along with an annual game versus Cuse among the Deep South teams as they have a significant amount of alumni from BOS-WASH

I like the no division setup for 14 teams. Play the three protected rivals every year and rotate the other 10 very two years. You can keep an 8 game schedule the 14 teams. Notre Dame gets sprinkled in on a rotation.
 
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