Another Look at ACC Divisions

[All4SU]

I really like that division. If I changed one thing it might be NC State for UVA.

UVA would be our cross-over.

 

[All4SU]

Cross-over games as follows:

Syracuse - Virginia
Miami - FSU
Georgia Tech - Clemson
NC St. - UNC
Pittsburgh - VTech
Maryland - Duke
BC - Wake

 

[billsin01]

No. I'd rather make sure we're in - and then they can hash it out. I get your point though but I'm just thankful we're in first and foremost - then I'll worry about divisions.

I can’t imagine it’d be a good long term business decision if BC, Pitt, Syracuse and Maryland were not in the same division. I think they absolutely have to be; based on expenses and creating/maintaining regional rivalries which obviously make the games more compelling – and ultimately generate more money for the schools.

I don't mean on SU's part -- they were in survival mode. I mean, the ACC should have hashed this stuff out as they were having discussions on expansion. If VT or UVA or whomever has major issues with being included in a northern portion of the conference, it would seem logical to bring that up months and/or years ago.

I agree though, it's good to be in. I just wouldn't be shocked if 10 years from now we're another conference of some type somewhere else. Building conferences based on TV deals means all these schools will be on the lookout for top dollar (rightfully so). That will not work well when it comes to loyalty, stability and longevity, which seem pretty important in the process of building a conference people care about.

 

[WoadBlue]

I think that is as good good an analysis making the case for basic North/South divisions, but with Miami in the North, as I've seen.

His ending noting that many want to see the NC schools split is the reason we have the divisions we have. When we went to 12, many boosters of Wake and NCSU felt they had been assured that they would be in the same division with UNC and Dook. But there were unrelenting demands made to split the NC schools.

Maryland wanted them split to try to keep them from being a voting block in the league and to mess up their rivalries perhaps to help Maryland basketball become bigger (say, if Dook no longer plays NCSU twice per year, Maryland can be a bigger rival for Dook than is NCSU).

GT demanded the NC schools be split because GT wanted North/South divisions.

FSU and Miami demanded the NC schools be split because they wanted to be split and neither wanted to be in a division with 4 NC teams.

Of the above, only Maryland's opposition to North+Miami/South divisions would remain strong. But UVA would HATE not being in a division with UNC and Dook, and VT would be almost as angry about not having 2 NC schools in its division. The adamant opposition of that trio would be enough to keep the divisions we have with Pitt tossed into 1 and Cuse into the other. The divisions we have are the great compromise that nobody liked much but that everybody could live with. I don't think they will be messed with until Notre Dame joins.

 

[kingottoiii]

The divisions we have are the great compromise that nobody liked much but that everybody could live with. I don't think they will be messed with until Notre Dame joins.

What is the point of divisions for anything but football? Isn't the ACC going to a model where non FB sports are divisionless? If that is the case then what is the big deal with a N/S split for FB?

North- Miami, VT, Pitt, UVA, MD, SU, BC
South- FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, UNC, NC St, Wake, Duke

UVA cares about playing UNC in FB, but do they really care about Duke FB? And with the protected cross rival they would play UNC every year in FB.

 

[WoadBlue]

What is the point of divisions for anything but football? Isn't the ACC going to a model where non FB sports are divisionless? If that is the case then what is the big deal with a N/S split for FB?

North- Miami, VT, Pitt, UVA, MD, SU, BC
South- FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, UNC, NC St, Wake, Duke

UVA cares about playing UNC in FB, but do they really care about Duke FB? And with the protected cross rival they would play UNC every year in FB.

It is not so much football vs. Dook annually that motivates UVA; it is being tied to UNC and Dook in any way there is a tie.

The ACC has never played division basketball, and I think the plan is to end divisions for all sports save perhaps football. If the NCAA allows conference basketball tournaments without divisions, it should allow a conference football championship game without divisions. In that case, it would be the 2 teams with the best records.

 

[longtimefan]

If the NCAA allows conference basketball tournaments without divisions, it should allow a conference football championship game without divisions. In that case, it would be the 2 teams with the best records.

FB and BB are in no way analogous. FB is a one-game championship. BB is an all-comers 11/13/15 game tournament. The use of divisions is much more logical in the FB model.

 

[WoadBlue]

FB and BB are in no way analogous. FB is a one-game championship. BB is an all-comers 11/13/15 game tournament. The use of divisions is much more logical in the FB model.

More logical, yes. But far from ideal, especially for a conference like the ACC. The SEC's ideal East/West divisions are now ruined by having Missouri, a state west of the Mississippi River, be in the East division.

If we could eliminate football divisions in the ACC, we could solve many issues. First, there would be no more worry from any angle about the 4 NC schools in the same division. That alone would ease all kinds of talks about scheduling changes. Right now, if you try to make any change, say to have GT play FSU annually or have VT play Maryland or Clemson annually, talk immediately goes to how that will affect all members of each school's division, and whether it might inadvertently help the NC schools.

With divisions, all are directly affected by a change in division - all division members play each other annually. If we schedule without divisions, then there is much leeway - say, Syracuse getting Pitt, BC, and Miami as annual games does not mean that Pitt, BC, and Miami all must play each other annually.

Let's say, for the purposes of this discussion, that the ACC expands to 16. That is not happening without Notre Dame. And more and more I think ND will want Navy as the ACC's 16th member for football, because ND intends to keep Navy as an annual game and making ND-Navy an ACC game will make it much easier for ND to join the ACC and schedule football to maintain its national TV prowess and recruiting.

With 16 teams, you are going to play 9 league games. If each school has 6 annual rivals, the remaining 9 teams in the ACC would be divided into 3 groups of 3, which means that it will take 6 years for all schools to play everybody in the league Home-Away. ND's 6 annual rivals I think should be: Navy, BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Miami, and GT. Navy will play its Home games against ND anywhere (Philly, New Orleans, Houston, Dallas, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Dublin), thus facilitating ND's barnstorming needs. BC is the other Catholic school in 1A football, and Boston is a huge ND subway alum TV market. Cuse is the only 1A program in NY, the state with the most ND subway alums (and the ACC and Syracuse would be best served if all Cuse Home games against ND were played in either Yankee Stadium or Giants Stadium, perhaps rotating between the 2). Pitt is ND's 4th or 5th most played rivalry, and western PA is extremely important to ND recruiting. Miami would get ND into FL at least once every other year. GT, which has an old rivalry with ND, would get ND into the very heart of the South, and in the region's 2nd most important state for recruiting, every other year.

That scheduling would be good for ND, allowing it to use the ACC's geography to keep conference membership from harming its needs to play nationally. What ND does not need is 1 or 2 NC schools added to its annual rivals. And the 6 I see as ideal for ND annual rivals do not all need to play one another annually.

For example, the 6 I would be inclined to think would work best for GT and the ACC are: ND, Miami, FSU, Clemson, UNC (maybe UVA), Dook.

I doubt that GT would get those 6 because of needs elsewhere. The 5 that virtually everybody would agree have the best combination of helping ticket sales and garnering national TV audience are ND, FSU, Miami, VT, and Clemson, and no school could or should have 4 of that group as annual rivals. But the point is that the schools that as annual rivals would best enable ND to help ACC football are not going to be the best annual rivals for each other. That being the case, scrap divisions. The 2 teams with the best records play in the Championship Game. Ties are broken by BCS standing (which will remain for seeding of a 4 team playoff).

 

[longtimefan]

More logical, yes. But far from ideal, especially for a conference like the ACC. The SEC's ideal East/West divisions are now ruined by having Missouri, a state west of the Mississippi River, be in the East division.

If we could eliminate football divisions in the ACC, we could solve many issues. First, there would be no more worry from any angle about the 4 NC schools in the same division. That alone would ease all kinds of talks about scheduling changes. Right now, if you try to make any change, say to have GT play FSU annually or have VT play Maryland or Clemson annually, talk immediately goes to how that will affect all members of each school's division, and whether it might inadvertently help the NC schools.

With divisions, all are directly affected by a change in division - all division members play each other annually. If we schedule without divisions, then there is much leeway - say, Syracuse getting Pitt, BC, and Miami as annual games does not mean that Pitt, BC, and Miami all must play each other annually.

Let's say, for the purposes of this discussion, that the ACC expands to 16. That is not happening without Notre Dame. And more and more I think ND will want Navy as the ACC's 16th member for football, because ND intends to keep Navy as an annual game and making ND-Navy an ACC game will make it much easier for ND to join the ACC and schedule football to maintain its national TV prowess and recruiting.

With 16 teams, you are going to play 9 league games. If each school has 6 annual rivals, the remaining 9 teams in the ACC would be divided into 3 groups of 3, which means that it will take 6 years for all schools to play everybody in the league Home-Away. ND's 6 annual rivals I think should be: Navy, BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Miami, and GT. Navy will play its Home games against ND anywhere (Philly, New Orleans, Houston, Dallas, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, Dublin), thus facilitating ND's barnstorming needs. BC is the other Catholic school in 1A football, and Boston is a huge ND subway alum TV market. Cuse is the only 1A program in NY, the state with the most ND subway alums (and the ACC and Syracuse would be best served if all Cuse Home games against ND were played in either Yankee Stadium or Giants Stadium, perhaps rotating between the 2). Pitt is ND's 4th or 5th most played rivalry, and western PA is extremely important to ND recruiting. Miami would get ND into FL at least once every other year. GT, which has an old rivalry with ND, would get ND into the very heart of the South, and in the region's 2nd most important state for recruiting, every other year.

That scheduling would be good for ND, allowing it to use the ACC's geography to keep conference membership from harming its needs to play nationally. What ND does not need is 1 or 2 NC schools added to its annual rivals. And the 6 I see as ideal for ND annual rivals do not all need to play one another annually.

For example, the 6 I would be inclined to think would work best for GT and the ACC are: ND, Miami, FSU, Clemson, UNC (maybe UVA), Dook.

I doubt that GT would get those 6 because of needs elsewhere. The 5 that virtually everybody would agree have the best combination of helping ticket sales and garnering national TV audience are ND, FSU, Miami, VT, and Clemson, and no school could or should have 4 of that group as annual rivals. But the point is that the schools that as annual rivals would best enable ND to help ACC football are not going to be the best annual rivals for each other. That being the case, scrap divisions. The 2 teams with the best records play in the Championship Game. Ties are broken by BCS standing (which will remain for seeding of a 4 team playoff).

Interesting. And lots to agree with.

But. . . you sure are treating SU like a 2nd class citizen. SU (and Navy) play their "home" games vs ND where the Irish want them. Pitt, BC(!), Miami and GT all get to host the Irish in their home stadia. And, yeah, I know those are 4 big cities. But the Orange deserve to play some of their biggest draws in their own building on occasion. Work on that some, and get back to me.