Attack Log Jam

[CuseNHouse]

is ~10 attackmen a lot for a team with 55-60 players on it?

Agree with the comment below - not an unreasonable amount, but reality is most of the guys listed may see little, if any, significant PT with current group in place and future incoming unless they move to mid .

	2021	2022	2023	2024	2025	2026
Righty	Scanlon	Scanlon
	Birtwhistle	Birtwhistle	Birtwhistle	Birtwhistle
	Berkman	Berkman	Berkman	Berkman
X	Cook	Cook	Spallina	Spallina	Spallina	Spallina
	Ferris	Ferris	Ferris	Ferris
		Corsi	Corsi	Corsi	Corsi
Lefty	Rehfuss
	Hiltz	Hiltz	Hiltz	Hiltz
			Leo	Leo	Leo	Leo

Good breakdown = any thoughts on these 3 in mix - Tenaglia, Snyder (is he coming?), Aiden Kelly (A/M)

 

[JeremyCuse]

Agree with the comment below - not an unreasonable amount, but reality is most of the guys listed may see little, if any, significant PT with current group in place and future incoming unless they move to mid .


Good breakdown = any thoughts on these 3 in mix - Tenaglia, Snyder (is he coming?), Aiden Kelly (A/M)

Tenaglia is likely to be moved to midfield, staff likes him, don't be surprised if he sees time on the second line. Snyder is not coming. Kelly will likely play midfield.

 

[Powellfan]

In my opinion, lefties are usually more one-handed than righties, due to there being fewer of them. They get put in the left handed spot on attack and they are rewarded for having a great left hand. No need to work on the right. Righties seem to develop their off-hand better because there are lots of other spots on the field for them where having two good hands makes sense.

There are more and more players getting to college with one dominant hand due to the explosion of box lacrosse and that style of play. In box lacrosse, players use their dominant hand and almost never switch hands. They get really good at protecting their stick this way and getting to good spots on the field to shoot.

I seem to remember SU having midfield lines with all righties and all or mostly lefties. Of course, they were probably more two-handed than players now, so it wasn't a big deal.

SU has tried two lefties on offense and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 2007 Leveille and Hardy didn't work. 2019 Rehfuss and Voigt worked. I think it has to do with the type of player each of them are and where they like to play on the field. If you looked at a heat map of Hardy and Leveille, it probably would've looked like they played in the same spots on the field. If you looked at Rehfuss and Voigt, they usually occupied different spots on the field.

SU has had 3 righties on attack. Two that come to mind are 2000 (R. Powell, Banks and Springer) and 2002 (M. Powell, Coffman and Springer). All besides Springer were very much two-handed.

I am not good at noticing lefties vs righties, so this is really helpful. I think one of the big questions for this upcoming season is where does Owen Hiltz play? I have to imagine that he was expecting to come in and take the lefty attack spot his freshmen year. Obviously a lot has changed since he committed, but I wonder how the coaching staff plans on using him, seeing how Rhefuss has decided to return.

There isn't a ton of tape of him out there, but from what I have seen he looks like a different kind of attackman than Rhefuss. Hiltz looks like he does most of his work from the wing, and would even be comfortable from the midfield. Rhefuss is more of a traditional behind the goal x attackman, though he does most of his work from the left side of the field. As Ohiomilax points out above, despite both being lefties, since they operate in different areas of the field, they could play on the same attack line, I think.

Of course you still have Cook and Scanlan returning, so would the staff bench Cook? They could split time a la Dylan Donahue and Billy Ward 2013. Hiltz also could play on the second midfield, but might his talents be lost there? Not sure how he'd take to being redshirted since he missed his entire senior year, but again, these are strange times and its going to be hard for the staff to evaluate any of the new players.

The coaching staff must have some plan in place, but wondering if anyone has any insight? I know we've been talking about this basically since the season ended, but I don't think there are many other position battles to discuss (where Brett Kennedy plays is the only other big one I can think of - Beardsley seems to think he'll move back to LSM).

 

[ohmilax34]

I am not good at noticing lefties vs righties, so this is really helpful. I think one of the big questions for this upcoming season is where does Owen Hiltz play? I have to imagine that he was expecting to come in and take the lefty attack spot his freshmen year. Obviously a lot has changed since he committed, but I wonder how the coaching staff plans on using him, seeing how Rhefuss has decided to return.

There isn't a ton of tape of him out there, but from what I have seen he looks like a different kind of attackman than Rhefuss. Hiltz looks like he does most of his work from the wing, and would even be comfortable from the midfield. Rhefuss is more of a traditional behind the goal x attackman, though he does most of his work from the left side of the field. As Ohiomilax points out above, despite both being lefties, since they operate in different areas of the field, they could play on the same attack line, I think.

Of course you still have Cook and Scanlan returning, so would the staff bench Cook? They could split time a la Dylan Donahue and Billy Ward 2013. Hiltz also could play on the second midfield, but might his talents be lost there? Not sure how he'd take to being redshirted since he missed his entire senior year, but again, these are strange times and its going to be hard for the staff to evaluate any of the new players.

The coaching staff must have some plan in place, but wondering if anyone has any insight? I know we've been talking about this basically since the season ended, but I don't think there are many other position battles to discuss (where Brett Kennedy plays is the only other big one I can think of - Beardsley seems to think he'll move back to LSM).

Good question! I think a lot of teams are going to have to figure this out, because we're seeing more and more highly skilled lefties, especially in the HS class of 2020. Duke has Dyson Williams and Brennan O'Neill, Cornell has Teat and C.J. Kirst (fr from Delbarton), UVA will have Cormier and a couple freshmen including former SU commit Maher, Maryland has Wisnauskas and Kelly (fr from Calvert Hall) and Koras (fr from Loyola), JHU has Williams and Grimes, OSU has Reid and Kane (fr from Hill Academy via Georgia). I'm wondering if we'll see more two man game on the lefty side from these teams. Typically in a motion offense you don't need two lefties, but to use a two man game on that side, you need two lefties. OSU has been doing that for awhile. I think we'll see JHU move to do that more. I'm curious if Pat March will do it more now that he has more lefties at his disposal. In 2020 he didn't have anyone besides Rehfuss, right? I expect Cornell to use that style a little bit. It will be interesting with Duke and Virginia, because they've run pretty traditional motion offenses. I don't know much about Maryland, but the guys they have are very talented, so they will want to get them on the field.

Edit re: Hiltz
As far as where Hiltz (or Tenaglia) plays, I think it can work with Hiltz getting runs as the 4th attackman and on the 2nd middie line. I think Rehfuss's heat would show him splitting his time behind the goal and below the goal, and Hiltz looks more comfortable above the goal, so they can probably make it work, especially if they play some two-man game. I wonder though if they both prefer the feeding role in a pick and roll scenario. Tenaglia also looks like he wants the ball in his stick.

 

[sholokov2]

That's how I see it and I will go over some of my assumptions, observations and reasoning.

I am assuming nobody uses a 5th COVID year. A lot of guys can, but I wanted to make this a little cleaner. I do assume Berkman takes a 5th year, because he was injured early in 2020. Maybe that's a bad assumption.

I don't think Aburn or Erlbeck should really be considered part of the depth chart. I don't think either will be considered for important playing time. I always root for all SU players and I would love it if they proved me wrong. Watch some of Erlbeck's HS full games. He isn't a dominant player.

The guys I have listed next to midfield are those I think make sense to move to midfield because there is someone in front of them at attack that's better, and they are athletic enough to play midfield. Birtwhistle's highlights show much of his work is done above the goal. Corsi looks very athletic. If he's a great attackman, they may just keep him there. Who knows?

I really don't know where Berkman fits in at all. Unfortunately, we didn't get to see much of him in 2020.

I like Ferris a lot. I think he's got some attributes that SU hasn't had in a while, like size and a real comfort behind the goal with a defender on him.

agree with everyone about Ferris. Video showed him to be fluid at x with either hand, adept at scorching a pole from x, and big enough not to be pushed off his line easily. Video can be deceiving but he seems to be a cut above some of the other offensive recruits.

 

[sholokov2]

Good question! I think a lot of teams are going to have to figure this out, because we're seeing more and more highly skilled lefties, especially in the HS class of 2020. Duke has Dyson Williams and Brennan O'Neill, Cornell has Teat and C.J. Kirst (fr from Delbarton), UVA will have Cormier and a couple freshmen including former SU commit Maher, Maryland has Wisnauskas and Kelly (fr from Calvert Hall) and Koras (fr from Loyola), JHU has Williams and Grimes, OSU has Reid and Kane (fr from Hill Academy via Georgia). I'm wondering if we'll see more two man game on the lefty side from these teams. Typically in a motion offense you don't need two lefties, but to use a two man game on that side, you need two lefties. OSU has been doing that for awhile. I think we'll see JHU move to do that more. I'm curious if Pat March will do it more now that he has more lefties at his disposal. In 2020 he didn't have anyone besides Rehfuss, right? I expect Cornell to use that style a little bit. It will be interesting with Duke and Virginia, because they've run pretty traditional motion offenses. I don't know much about Maryland, but the guys they have are very talented, so they will want to get them on the field.

Edit re: Hiltz
As far as where Hiltz (or Tenaglia) plays, I think it can work with Hiltz getting runs as the 4th attackman and on the 2nd middie line. I think Rehfuss's heat would show him splitting his time behind the goal and below the goal, and Hiltz looks more comfortable above the goal, so they can probably make it work, especially if they play some two-man game. I wonder though if they both prefer the feeding role in a pick and roll scenario. Tenaglia also looks like he wants the ball in his stick.

where have you been ohmi? Missed your comments. I have watched Rehfuss closely for three years. He still does not look natural to me at x. He seems to take wrong angles which forces him to expend enormous energy to turn the corner, which I believe causes him to disappear for relatively long periods of time. With guys like Hiltz, instead of leaving Rehfuss on the field during his down times, the coach might insert Hiltz or someone else for 2 or 3 minutes and allow Rehfuss to rest off the field rather than on.

I see the depth on the coming SU team as a positive. I am not sure handedness makes a difference. There are right handers and left handers who can shoot with equal facility from either side of the field even when they play one handed. If Hiltz can help as a mid he will play. He's very adept from the wings.

 

[ohmilax34]

where have you been ohmi? Missed your comments. I have watched Rehfuss closely for three years. He still does not look natural to me at x. He seems to take wrong angles which forces him to expend enormous energy to turn the corner, which I believe causes him to disappear for relatively long periods of time. With guys like Hiltz, instead of leaving Rehfuss on the field during his down times, the coach might insert Hiltz or someone else for 2 or 3 minutes and allow Rehfuss to rest off the field rather than on.

I see the depth on the coming SU team as a positive. I am not sure handedness makes a difference. There are right handers and left handers who can shoot with equal facility from either side of the field even when they play one handed. If Hiltz can help as a mid he will play. He's very adept from the wings.

Hey Sholo! I've been reading the recruiting threads, but not posting much. This kind of discussion is more up my alley. If there is a spring HS season, I will follow how the recruits are doing.

I agree with your comments on Rehfuss. If you've ever seen him without pads on, he's pretty skinny. Most good dodgers from X initiate some contact with their defender. I don't think Rehfuss does that much.

I think the handedness of the midfielders REALLY doesn't matter. They've all shown to be good with both hands. At attack it seems to be much more common to try to balance the field with players playing on a wing that makes them more comfortable. A couple times Scanlon moved off-ball and crossed the face of the goal and was on the lefty side, and he didn't really get involved with the offense from there. Against JHU I don't remember him crossing the face of the goal as much. I'm guessing a lot of it had to do with how the opposing defense played him.

 

[Mareiniss]

I'm a long-time fan but am not all that knowledgeable about strategy and tactics. It seems that the 2021 team has a logjam of talent at attack, but some holes to fill at second and third midfield (with the departure of Lipka and the Kims). What would be the downside of giving some of the younger attacks playing time at second or third midfield? I'm thinking maybe Hiltz, Seebold and/or Tenaglia. If they invert, isn't it essentially the same as playing attack anyway?

 

[ohmilax34]

I'm a long-time fan but am not all that knowledgeable about strategy and tactics. It seems that the 2021 team has a logjam of talent at attack, but some holes to fill at second and third midfield (with the departure of Lipka and the Kims). What would be the downside of giving some of the younger attacks playing time at second or third midfield? I'm thinking maybe Hiltz, Seebold and/or Tenaglia. If they invert, isn't it essentially the same as playing attack anyway?

Syracuse has had a 3rd midfield line, but they really only see time in blow outs. Maybe a run here or there, but nothing substantial. Of course, the better they are the more time they'll get. SU has other guys like Pete Fiorini and Matt Magnan who have been on that line for a couple years, so there aren't a ton of spots to be had. Even the 2nd line returns Seebold, Buttermore and Quinn.

This isn't to say that the 2nd and 3rd lines can't improve by adding new players. Tenaglia and Hiltz are talented, so they will see the field somehow if they can execute the offense.

Inverting is close to actually playing attack, but attackmen that stay on the field all the time get to take advantage of unsettled situations (where Griffin Cook excelled last season) including fast breaks, rides, etc.

Man up is another way to integrate some players. Cook was on man up last season, but didn't look particularly comfortable. Of course, he probably enjoys riding when man up.

 

[JeremyCuse]

I'm a long-time fan but am not all that knowledgeable about strategy and tactics. It seems that the 2021 team has a logjam of talent at attack, but some holes to fill at second and third midfield (with the departure of Lipka and the Kims). What would be the downside of giving some of the younger attacks playing time at second or third midfield? I'm thinking maybe Hiltz, Seebold and/or Tenaglia. If they invert, isn't it essentially the same as playing attack anyway?

Your question is a good one but unfortunately there is no universal or correct answer. As Ohmilax noted SU usually is fairly deep at midfield to begin with and finding a spot or two on the midfield can vary from year to year but usually it's a lot harder then it seems. The other main issue is that sometimes attackmen can't or struggle to play middie. Both Evans and Cook played middie early in their careers here and both struggled mightily, Cook who did play some middie in HS never appeared comfortable and Evans was a complete mess. For other players like Mariano, Galasso and others the transition is seamless, it really depends on the player.

Sometimes the staff will look to fill a guy in at a position of need. Take the last game against Hop, Dordevic cramps up and instead of bumping a guy from the 2nd mid line SU runs Seebold with the 1's and he looked good out there. However, with SU's current midfield depth barring injury there really isn't a spot to play Seebold unless your goign to run him with the 3's which doesn't make much sense as they don't play every game and even when they do they get maybe 1 or 2 shifts at best. SU also has an elite first line so you want those guys playing together and getting a majority of the runs. You could do some subbing especially in blow outs or if there is a minor injury but you don't want to make wholesale changes and start messing up chemistry.

For this season I do think here will be some movement. I expect Tenaglia to move to middie and see time on the 2nd line with Buttermore Quinn and a third person (whoever shows out the best). I suspect Hiltz will likely play a platoon with Rehfuss. As someone noted above and has been clear his career here, Rehfuss can have games where he struggles to make an impact, being able to sub him out with a guy like Hiltz is exactly what this team needs. Seebold I think maybe the odd man out unless he outplays Hiltz which is possible based on Hiltz missing last season and fall ball.

 

[Powellfan]

Syracuse has had a 3rd midfield line, but they really only see time in blow outs. Maybe a run here or there, but nothing substantial. Of course, the better they are the more time they'll get. SU has other guys like Pete Fiorini and Matt Magnan who have been on that line for a couple years, so there aren't a ton of spots to be had. Even the 2nd line returns Seebold, Buttermore and Quinn.

This isn't to say that the 2nd and 3rd lines can't improve by adding new players. Tenaglia and Hiltz are talented, so they will see the field somehow if they can execute the offense.

Inverting is close to actually playing attack, but attackmen that stay on the field all the time get to take advantage of unsettled situations (where Griffin Cook excelled last season) including fast breaks, rides, etc.

Man up is another way to integrate some players. Cook was on man up last season, but didn't look particularly comfortable. Of course, he probably enjoys riding when man up.

Lots of good points here. The third midfield is something we seem to discuss every offseason but never materliazes. Its a good idea in theory - use the teams' depth to run opposing teams off the field - but in practice it means the first midfield is getting less runs. With so many options this year, maybe the coaches create a hybrid second line that incorporates four or five players instead of three?

I think we all had high hopes for the second midfield line last year and unfortunately they never really found their stride. When Quinn is on, he's very good, but when he's not, he seems to turn the ball over left and right. Seebold seemed to take his spot in the Hopkins game and looked quite promising, very aggressive and should have been credited with a goal, but it was only one game. I think Buttermore is the only guy whose spot is secured. Like Jeremy said my money would be on the unit to consist of Buttermore, Quinn and probably Tenaglia but Hiltz or Seebold could also fight for time if they don't see time at attack.

It is crazy that UA AA like Magnan and Fiorini might get bypassed again, but they have an uphill climb. Magnan looked good against Hobart two years ago with two goals but had a bad turnover the following game and never seemed to see the field again. Fiorini hasn't seen non-mop up duty.

 

[ivorytower]

Hmmmm, You aint running three lines since 1st will see much time. . My guess is 7 mids used.

With all due respect to Tenaglia, not sure Id place him in front of several others . . Know he had some success at Furman at attack and coaches liked his tape but can he even play mid. As Jeremy pointed out, some attackman can, some really cant and that switch takes time and practice which may be in shorter supply this year.

Remember that many believe Hiltz is as good as Oneill who is labeled a generational talent ? Hiltz may be a better overall prospect than Spallina who will be very good. My guess is good p/twill be carved out for him at either attack or at mid or perhaps at both.


Next likely in line behind Buttermore (and maybe Hiltz) imo would be Seebold who was standing out in practice, looked to be on verge of breaking out and has shown he can play mid . His size and array could make him another inverting weapon. Seebold erminds me of Garret Leadmon of Duke

Then there is Quinn who has been part of Cuse plans for three years since his arrival. Injuries and inconsistency has held him back but the talent n shot is there so expect him to get every opportunity in his fourth year .

and Ill throw this out, Aviles would be very good mid though think they'll leave him at ssdm

Lost the experience of Lipka and the size of Kims who could play but numerous good candidates to fill. Nice problem to have .

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Is it possible Scanlan could move back to middie after 2021?